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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    So, a couple points...

    Two teams are reported to have been in violation with the rules. Of course those two teams are the focus of the investigation. My assumption is that any team, for which evidence has been presented, would be under investigation. I don't think the Astros and Red Sox are being singled out for any reason other than the fact that evidence, specific to their organizations has been presented to the league.
    Consider this, though. Between the Astros winning the World Series and Mike Fiers' comments in the Athletic article, two years passed with zero repercussions. And how many times have you ever seen a player come out and accuse his former team of cheating? Athletes keep this stuff pretty close to the vest—the vast majority of players and personnel aren't going to rat out their former teammates and colleagues. And if Fiers doesn't go on the record to say what he said, my guess is that the investigation may have never taken place.

    In regards to whether or not penalties are deterrents, I guess the point is that yesterday's penalties should have been a severe enough warning to discourage the activity. If you think the PED suspensions have not drastically reduced PED use in the sport, then we strongly disagree.
    I never said that. Nor did I suggest that yesterday's penalties won't deter teams from cheating. But it's not going to be 100% perfect. Teams can and will find other ways to cheat the system as long as there's opportunities to do so and they can get away with it. It may be a while before another team does it, but it will happen again as long as there's a system in place that doesn't 100% prevent it from happening. In the same way that PED use is down dramatically, but guys are still caught every season.

    Your use of Murphy's law seems to be in support of... people are always gonna cheat, so punishments don't matter? If not, please explain what your point with that is.
    What? How did you infer that from what I said? I'm not talking about the punishments at all, chief. I'm talking about the act of cheating itself. If there IS an opportunity for an athlete or coach or team to get ahead through cheating, someone somewhere will take advantage of it, regardless of the punishment—that's my Murphy's Law analogy. Right now, there is a coach somewhere in this country at some level of the sport who's reading about what the Astros did and thinking "That's clever! How could I implement this without getting caught?" It's only a matter of time before someone at the MLB level thinks the same thing.


  2. #272
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    Last edited by thefeckcampaign; 01-14-2020 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    It might bring his career ERA down to 7 lol

  4. 01-14-2020, 04:48 PM
    Reason
    Response to a deleted post - Rush

  5. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Again

    Can we then erase the number of all know cheaters in the roids era.

    This guys was mediocre pitcher who never lived up to the hype, cry me a ****ing river Phil Hughes.

  6. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Again

    Can we then erase the number of all know cheaters in the roids era.

    This guys was mediocre pitcher who never lived up to the hype, cry me a ****ing river Phil Hughes.
    He's joking! Wow get a grip.

  7. #276
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    Lolololololololololol

  8. #277
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    25,951
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Well you decided to group in how Tony Gwynn studies a pitchers mechanics with sign stealing so I just gave a facetious response.

    All in all I think it’s stupid to acknowledge sign stealing without technology as being “fair” but once technology comes into play it’s cheating. They’re both cheating. As the game evolves so will the cheaters aka everyone. They found a more efficient way to cheat so now there has to be a counter measure. I wouldn’t be surprised if pitchers, catchers and managers started wearing headsets now. That’s one way to counter electronic sign stealing.
    I kinda feel like using your eyes isn't exactly cheating.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #278
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    If you're a major league team, raise your hand if you think 5 million dollars is worth 3 years of cheating to win a WS

  10. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I'm not going to keep spinning my wheels on this. I've said what I needed to say, and suffice it to say I disagree with the vast majority of this. To recap:

    1. I don't believe the Astros has some astronomical edge over other teams. The home/road splits over the season are pretty damning evidence against it, and any competent team would have picked up on the system and changed up their signs mid-game.

    2. The Astros cheated, and they were punished for it. This was about as bad as anyone who's followed the league the last couple of decades should have expected. If you were expecting worse, then you haven't been paying attention.

    3. There isn't a Hall of Fame in any sport that isn't full of cheaters and guys who found advantages that spat in the "integrity" of the game. Baseball is not different. Mickey freaking Mantle took steroids during the home run chase with Maris in '61. But if you want to live in an unrealistic world of sunshine and rainbows where no one cheats and everyone does the right thing, be my guest.
    I seriously doubt that steroids were commercially available in 1961. And if they were, they must have been really expensive. Plus players (even the superstars) didn't make as much money back then as they do now, even adjusting for inflation. "Greenies" count as PED's, but they aren't steroids.

    Future Hall of Shamers:
    (1) B.A.L.C.O. Barroids (2) Mark McJuicer (3) Jose Chem-seco (4) Rafael Palmeiroids (5) Ken Chem-initi (6) Jason Gi-andro (7) Ryan Fraud (8) Muscle Melk (9) Woman-Ram (10) Shammy Sosa (11) Roger Clear-mens (12) A-Roid (13) Ryan HGHoward

  11. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgerdave View Post
    I seriously doubt that steroids were commercially available in 1961. And if they were, they must have been really expensive. Plus players (even the superstars) didn't make as much money back then as they do now, even adjusting for inflation. "Greenies" count as PED's, but they aren't steroids.
    You're right. It's a stupid argument anyway to suggest "well players have always cheated, why is this different?". Everyone knows and understands why this is completely different. The league gets it and enacted rules with language specific to the issue. Two men in the Houston organization have lost their job, and now Cora is gone from the Red Sox, unsuprisingly - anyone think he'll be managing again? What will happen with Dombrowski? Clearly this is an entirely new level of cheating, directly in the face of the very rules that were well communicated to all teams. MLB knows that technology is opening new doors of all kinds...some good, some not so good.

    All of the discussion about other forms of cheating, or the feigned indignant responses are nothing more than transparent attempts to take away from the issue specifically with the Astros. Anything is on the table right now for the Astros apologist to come out and defend their actions and recent successes, through any manner of misdirection and nonsensical arguments comparing it to steroids, pine tar, and anything else they can latch on to. This includes blaming MLB itself for not leveraging technology better to stop it.

    There are allegations from the posters that suggest that there is nothing to see here, and that these types of systems will continue to be used in MLB - I hope that mentality is reflective of the Astros in general, and they remain tone deaf to the situation. I hope they continue to use such systems in an attempt to gain an advantage. It won't end well for them.

    This isn't going away, it's anything but a non-issue. I am going to sit back and watch the fallout and enjoy the ride the Astros will be on in the coming months as they pretend their championship is pure and un-tainted, and that their organization is really one to be admired.
    Last edited by sonofdad; 01-15-2020 at 06:31 AM.

  12. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I kinda feel like using your eyes isn't exactly cheating.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

  13. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
    He's joking! Wow get a grip.
    Every joke has some truth to it otherwise it wouldn’t be funny.

  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    You're right. It's a stupid argument anyway to suggest "well players have always cheated, why is this different?". Everyone knows and understands why this is completely different. The league gets it and enacted rules with language specific to the issue. Two men in the Houston organization have lost their job, and now Cora is gone from the Red Sox, unsuprisingly - anyone think he'll be managing again? What will happen with Dombrowski? Clearly this is an entirely new level of cheating, directly in the face of the very rules that were well communicated to all teams. MLB knows that technology is opening new doors of all kinds...some good, some not so good.

    All of the discussion about other forms of cheating, or the feigned indignant responses are nothing more than transparent attempts to take away from the issue specifically with the Astros. Anything is on the table right now for the Astros apologist to come out and defend their actions and recent successes, through any manner of misdirection and nonsensical arguments comparing it to steroids, pine tar, and anything else they can latch on to. This includes blaming MLB itself for not leveraging technology better to stop it.

    There are allegations from the posters that suggest that there is nothing to see here, and that these types of systems will continue to be used in MLB - I hope that mentality is reflective of the Astros in general, and they remain tone deaf to the situation. I hope they continue to use such systems in an attempt to gain an advantage. It won't end well for them.

    This isn't going away, it's anything but a non-issue. I am going to sit back and watch the fallout and enjoy the ride the Astros will be on in the coming months as they pretend their championship is pure and un-tainted, and that their organization is really one to be admired.
    I think they might actually be smart enough to put this out before another scandal equal to the level of the PED era blows up.

    Personally, I think the waiting for the replay to decide if you should make a challenge is not much different. For whatever reason they made this acceptable.

    It should be declared by their eyes just like the umpires do. I say 30 seconds for the teams to make their decision if their going to challenge or not.

    It will help shorten the game a bit too.
    Last edited by thefeckcampaign; 01-15-2020 at 09:32 AM.

  15. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    If you're a major league team, raise your hand if you think 5 million dollars is worth 3 years of cheating to win a WS
    I’m 100% with you there. The amount of money they made on merchandise alone probably towers that.

  16. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    It might have been 50 or 60 years ago. It's not anymore. Not when you're talking about performance being the difference between making 3 million dollars and 13 million dollars. What's priority now is money and winning. Players stealing signs is the same reason why they took PEDs. We have to stop pretending like baseball is this sanctimonious art form where cheating doesn't happen everyday.

    It does. Living in a baseball fan bubble of George Will documentaries is a bad idea.
    Then it’s no longer real. They might as well call it MLBE, Major League Baseball Entertainment. Guys like John Kruk, John Rocker, Brian Wilson, etc. would be the stars pulling in the big bucks.

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