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  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    So its your opinion that cheating helped them win a handful of games? Systematic cheating, giving them an advantage in one of the most fundamental aspects of the game has that little bearing?

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Please show me where I said that systematic cheating helped the Astros win a handful of games (no more and no less).

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  2. #737
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    Having said that, with all the talent they have had on that roster, I see no reason to think they'd be anything worse than a 90+ win team each of the last three seasons.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  3. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Having said that, with all the talent they have had on that roster, I see no reason to think they'd be anything worse than a 90+ win team each of the last three seasons.
    Talent has a way of appearing more talented when they are benefiting from the worst cheating scandal since the Black Sox...

  4. #739
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    Again: yes....but to what degree? Do you think they would be floating around .500 without the benefit of cheating? Better than that? Worse?

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  5. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Again: yes....but to what degree? Do you think they would be floating around .500 without the benefit of cheating? Better than that? Worse?
    Hard to say exactly. Truth is, we don't know.

    All we know is that this keeps getting worse, and the apologist position keeps becoming more ridiculous...

    When Mike Trout, of all people, is coming after you, you've got a serious problem.

    Manfred screwed this pooch bad.
    Last edited by JudgeMeNot; 02-19-2020 at 12:44 AM.

  6. #741
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    Yeah, when a lamp post speaks....everyone listens.

    I know the majority of baseball fans will never forgive them, but being realistic about how you think this stuff affected them as a team is not the position of an apologist. We simply have a different outlook on the situation. I tend to think how they perform this season will only bolster my argument (and I'm sure you and others think the same). It will be interesting to revisit this topic come October. Having said that: the roster is a year older, they just played another long season deep in to October, and losing Gerritt Cole is no minor thing.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  7. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Yeah, when a lamp post speaks....everyone listens.

    I know the majority of baseball fans will never forgive them, but being realistic about how you think this stuff affected them as a team is not the position of an apologist. We simply have a different outlook on the situation. I tend to think how they perform this season will only bolster my argument (and I'm sure you and others think the same). It will be interesting to revisit this topic come October. Having said that: the roster is a year older, they just played another long season deep in to October, and losing Gerritt Cole is no minor thing.
    But you don't know what's "realistic" in any clear sense, because none of us do, the detractors or the apologists. That's what's so messed up about this all, and what has so many people disgusted. Your "realistic" assessment is nothing more than wish fulfillment.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    But you don't know what's "realistic" in any clear sense, because none of us do, the detractors or the apologists. That's what's so messed up about this all, and what has so many people disgusted. Your "realistic" assessment is nothing more than wish fulfillment.
    Oh, brother. I've already said that there's no way to accurately measure what effect the Astros cheating had.

    I have no reason to have any sort of "wish fulfillment" in terms of the Houston ****ing Astros, so....another big swing and a miss for you there too. As a Yankee fan who thinks Houston robbed your team of a championship and AL MVP award, you have a lot more of a reason to be biased than I do.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  9. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Yeah, when a lamp post speaks....everyone listens.

    I know the majority of baseball fans will never forgive them, but being realistic about how you think this stuff affected them as a team is not the position of an apologist. We simply have a different outlook on the situation. I tend to think how they perform this season will only bolster my argument (and I'm sure you and others think the same). It will be interesting to revisit this topic come October. Having said that: the roster is a year older, they just played another long season deep in to October, and losing Gerritt Cole is no minor thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Oh, brother. I've already said that there's no way to accurately measure what effect the Astros cheating had.

    I have no reason to have any sort of "wish fulfillment" in terms of the Houston ****ing Astros, so....another big swing and a miss for you there too. As a Yankee fan who thinks Houston robbed your team of a championship and AL MVP award, you have a lot more of a reason to be biased than I do.
    But above you said we should admire you for being "realistic" about the effect it had. What crystal ball are you using, or are you being a hypocrite? Has to be one of the two.

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    But you don't know what's "realistic" in any clear sense, because none of us do, the detractors or the apologists. That's what's so messed up about this all, and what has so many people disgusted. Your "realistic" assessment is nothing more than wish fulfillment.
    It's not like they'll turn into the Orioles without the trash can. They're still easily a 90+ win team and will probably win the AL West again. I'd peg them at closer to 95 wins, but losing Cole and the Angels adding Rendon and getting Ohtani back will make things tougher. Plus, the A's are still good.
    In the grand scheme of things, it probably only added a few wins to their season.
    The part that bugs me most about it is they did it all October as well and that the players got zero punishment for it.
    Do I know if the Yankees would've won the 2017 ALCS if they weren't banging on trash cans? No idea. But they lost 2-1 in both games 1 and 2. Maybe one of those ends up a 1-0 Yankees win. The Yankees also didn't hit AT ALL in Houston. They score 3 runs in either of the first 2 games and the Yankees are in the WS that year.
    I am obviously by no means defending what they did. Players absolutely should've been suspended for it. But you make it seem like they're a 100 loss ball club without the banging, which is silly.
    Last edited by goingfor28; 02-19-2020 at 03:12 AM.

  11. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Yeah, when a lamp post speaks....everyone listens.

    I know the majority of baseball fans will never forgive them, but being realistic about how you think this stuff affected them as a team is not the position of an apologist. We simply have a different outlook on the situation. I tend to think how they perform this season will only bolster my argument (and I'm sure you and others think the same). It will be interesting to revisit this topic come October. Having said that: the roster is a year older, they just played another long season deep in to October, and losing Gerritt Cole is no minor thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    It's not like they'll turn into the Orioles without the trash can. They're still easily a 90+ win team and will probably win the AL West again. I'd peg them at closer to 95 wins, but losing Cole and the Angels adding Rendon and getting Ohtani back will make things tougher. Plus, the A's are still good.
    In the grand scheme of things, it probably only added a few wins to their season.
    The part that bugs me most about it is they did it all October as well and that the players got zero punishment for it.
    There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. You just can't say "there's no way to know" how big an impact it had out of one side of your mouth, and then say "I'm the one being realistic" about the impact out of the other side.

  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    But above you said we should admire you for being "realistic" about the effect it had. What crystal ball are you using, or are you being a hypocrite? Has to be one of the two.
    I said people should admire me? I'm a clairvoyant hypocrite because I think I'm right in a baseball conversation?

    You are a joke.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Please show me where I said that systematic cheating helped the Astros win a handful of games (no more and no less).
    I suppose it was implied when you said cheating or no that yes you would go on a limb and say the Astros would have the most wins in the MLB the last 3 seasons.

    Having said that, it was a hypothetical scenario and I assumed the gap between them and number 2 on the list couldnt be too great. I realize the gap might have been larger and that is my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Having said that, with all the talent they have had on that roster, I see no reason to think they'd be anything worse than a 90+ win team each of the last three seasons.
    That would be about what I would guess as well. This season will be fascinating to watch unfold.

    You are a gambler, no? Where would you recommend if you wanted to wager on something like this?

    If I am mixing you up for another poster I apologize in advance.

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    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 02-19-2020 at 07:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Again, no one is saying tipped pitches don't help the batter. The argument all of us are having is in how much it helps the batter (and unfortunately, there isn't going to be a black and white answer to this debate). Regardless, I'm willing to bet that the Astros continue to be at the top of their division and near the top of their league when it comes to team performance in '20. None of this hoopla (or lack of a "cheat code") will negatively affect their chances to the degree that something like Verlander and/or Greinke getting injured or falling off a cliff production wise would.
    No, thatís not the argument. You claimed that knowing what pitch is coming doesnít take knowing when to lay off pitches out of the equation. I gave you two examples of how it does. Even if the pitcher misses his spot, the batter knows how the pitch will be moving. Iíd like for you to tell me how knowing what pitch is coming doesnít help a batter lay off pitches.

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