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  1. #691
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    Dec 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Too funny. These lawyers are such vultures.
    Murrica, land of the lawsuits.


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    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  2. #692
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I don't think Bregman will walk 100+ times this coming season. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good player but he won't be putting up MVP-like numbers. Altuve is going to be 30 this year so he's in his prime. No idea why you think he'd start to regress?

    In the post you quoted I was alluding towards the mental aspect of it. These guys are human and some of them definitely feel bad. They're going to be getting it on the road all year. It won't be like regular chirps. Granted there are definitely guys who don't give a **** but the shame and guilt will probably get to some of them. Altuve is my pick.
    Itís no different than the PED era. Yes, Bonds was HOF player before the steroids, but afterwards it was just sick. Who in the hell gets an intentional walk when the bases are loaded?

  3. #693
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    Dec 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefeckcampaign View Post
    Itís no different than the PED era. Yes, Bonds was HOF player before the steroids, but afterwards it was just sick. Who in the hell gets an intentional walk when the bases are loaded?
    I think itís pretty different TBH. Steroids make you stronger and help you recover from injury/stay on the field. They wonít help you know what pitch is coming. I said it in another post but there were tons of players who used steroids and still sucked. Granted the same could be said for the cheating too. Itís just that steroids wonít let you know when to lay off pitches, your eye will. Knowing what pitch is coming takes that completely out of the equation.

  4. #694
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    Jan 2005
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    26,147
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    In 2015, they were 6th in runs scored and 2nd in OPS. 2016 was seen as a down year and was the rookie seasons of Yuli and Bregman. It makes sense that the team would bounce back with those guys getting more playing time and getting better. They improved offensively at multiple positions in 2017, including catcher with the acquisition of McCann.

    You can't just look at stats across the board between seasons and go "Clearly they cheated!" The personnel was completely different in 2017. And then there's the fact that they were a vastly superior offensive team on the road that year that everyone likes to conveniently overlook.

    (Again) I'm not saying that the cheating didn't have an impact. I'm saying I don't think the cheating is the difference between these guys being good players and being great players or them being a an OK offensive team to a historic offensive team. They were already damn good baseball players. And if you didn't believe it based on 2019 production, you'll believe it in 2020.
    I have seen it stated in several places that they simply used different tactics on the road. Seems naive in this situation to think they just decided to play the game honestly when they were on the road frankly. Is that honestly what you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #695
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    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    In 2015, they were 6th in runs scored and 2nd in OPS. 2016 was seen as a down year and was the rookie seasons of Yuli and Bregman. It makes sense that the team would bounce back with those guys getting more playing time and getting better. They improved offensively at multiple positions in 2017, including catcher with the acquisition of McCann.

    You can't just look at stats across the board between seasons and go "Clearly they cheated!" The personnel was completely different in 2017. And then there's the fact that they were a vastly superior offensive team on the road that year that everyone likes to conveniently overlook.

    (Again) I'm not saying that the cheating didn't have an impact. I'm saying I don't think the cheating is the difference between these guys being good players and being great players or them being a an OK offensive team to a historic offensive team. They were already damn good baseball players. And if you didn't believe it based on 2019 production, you'll believe it in 2020.
    If they replicate their success in 2020 I will be more convinced then I am today because I think there is a greater likelihood of them playing honestly.

    I'm not gonna sit here and tell you after how Crane has handled this publicly and his comments regarding the culture that exists in his organization that there wont be suspicions going forward. At first I thought he seemed unaware and appalled by what was going on. That was when Hinch and Luhnow were canned. Everything he has said since makes you think he is no different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #696
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    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    They only became an over .500 team in 2015. Its easy to see where their roster continually got better, especially as they started to add more pieces and their younger talent started to blossom. We've never seen young teams incrementally get better? How about the Royals from 2012 to 2015? In 2012, they won 72 games, they won 86 in 2013, made it to the WS in 2014 and won it in 2015.

    These things do happen. Remember all those years the Astros were awful and had top 5 pick after top 5 pick? In those years, they were putting together one of the best farm systems in baseball.
    I know all these things, I do. Great looking farms bust all the time though. And like I said, it's the jump from 84 to 101 that is exceedingly rare, not from 72 to 85 or whatever. I'm not saying them being good is fraudulent, I'm saying KNOWING they are extremely good is. Make a list of the best records in baseball the last 3 years. Obviously the Astros are first. Do you think they end up first without cheating? If so where does your confidence in that come from if not from the results of the previous 3 years which should have a giant cloud hanging over them. If not first, where do you put them and how do you determine that? It's very easy to say they had top prospects therefore it makes sense they became great but that assumption doesnt pan out over the history of MLB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #697
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    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Fans have a nasty habit sometimes of piling on to the point where none of this is legitimate. Really? Like the Astros would have been perennial bottom feeders and won 70 games without the sign stealing. Clearly, they were doing good things in Houston in terms of putting together significant talent. That team would have contended for a WS without stealing signs as well. Look at how loaded their roster has been the last 3 years.

    Correa doesn't make a huge error in that 2015 ALDS and they could have been in or even won the WS that year. Obviously, the sign stealing helped their cause but it wasn't everything. That was and still is a good team.
    That's a red herring. Nobody has, in this thread at least, suggested they would be the Baltimore Orioles without cheating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #698
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    Jan 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Of course it's beneficial. I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise. It's a matter of how beneficial it is....and I feel like some of you (especially Dodgers and Yankees fans) are greatly exaggerating the effects.
    I have to say, the fact that every team in the history of major league baseball has made a concerted effort to conceal their signs hints strongly otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  9. #699
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    May 2007
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    48,356
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    So hereís a thought. Were the balls ďjuicedĒ or were the Astros just stealing signs at a relentless rate in the post season?
    No one was saying the balls were just juiced for one team back when this was playing out. Try again.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  10. #700
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I think itís pretty different TBH. Steroids make you stronger and help you recover from injury/stay on the field. They wonít help you know what pitch is coming. I said it in another post but there were tons of players who used steroids and still sucked. Granted the same could be said for the cheating too. Itís just that steroids wonít let you know when to lay off pitches, your eye will. Knowing what pitch is coming takes that completely out of the equation.
    Knowing what pitch is coming doesn't take "know(ing) when to lay off pitches" out of the equation. Knowing that a certain pitch is coming, doesn't mean you know where the pitch is going or if it's going to be a ball or a strike.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  11. #701
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    Oct 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    That's a red herring. Nobody has, in this thread at least, suggested they would be the Baltimore Orioles without cheating.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Some people have insinuated that the Astros would be much worse. Its a ridiculous notion. That's a WS caliber team irrespective of the sign stealing. Not saying it didn't help. It definitely did but if you would have told me that the Astros have accomplished the same feats in the last 5 years and never cheated, I wouldn't have batted an eyelash.

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I know all these things, I do. Great looking farms bust all the time though. And like I said, it's the jump from 84 to 101 that is exceedingly rare, not from 72 to 85 or whatever. I'm not saying them being good is fraudulent, I'm saying KNOWING they are extremely good is. Make a list of the best records in baseball the last 3 years. Obviously the Astros are first. Do you think they end up first without cheating? If so where does your confidence in that come from if not from the results of the previous 3 years which should have a giant cloud hanging over them. If not first, where do you put them and how do you determine that? It's very easy to say they had top prospects therefore it makes sense they became great but that assumption doesnt pan out over the history of MLB.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    I absolutely think the Astros still end up in first during the seasons in question. You're simply seeing what you want to see and acting like the Astros weren't at the tail end of a giant rebuild.

    If going from 84 to 101 wins is such a rare feat, why is it I'm just hearing this now for the very first time?

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  13. #703
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I have to say, the fact that every team in the history of major league baseball has made a concerted effort to conceal their signs hints strongly otherwise.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Not necessarily. Teams do everything they can to get an edge on the opposition (and prevent the opposition from getting an edge on them). This doesn't mean that every single one of these tactics is the breaking point between a very good team/player and an otherworldly team/player.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    If they replicate their success in 2020 I will be more convinced then I am today because I think there is a greater likelihood of them playing honestly.

    I'm not gonna sit here and tell you after how Crane has handled this publicly and his comments regarding the culture that exists in his organization that there wont be suspicions going forward. At first I thought he seemed unaware and appalled by what was going on. That was when Hinch and Luhnow were canned. Everything he has said since makes you think he is no different.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Yeah, that's totally fair. And I don't think Crane and the Astros organization has handled this well since the firing of Hinch and Lunhow. That was a step in the right direction, but not having the team or players address the investigation until the start of spring training and the poor handling of the press conference definitely didn't look great. So I can understand why people would be even more skeptical today than they were before.

    But given all the pressure the team is under and how closely everyone will be watching them, if they still perform well in 2020, I think they should have earned some of that respect back at least in terms of their abilities as athletes. If you're still one of the best offensive teams in baseball, a lot of the questions of "Was all of that offense from 2017-19 just a result of cheating?" should go away.


  15. #705
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    Jul 2019
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    205
    I'll own it:

    I don't think they make the postseason this year. No Cole, awful organizational juju, and yes, not having the benefits of the greatest cheating scandal of the 21st century...

    87 wins.

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