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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Let's put it this way. Who has a better chance of acing a test? The guy who has the answer key or the guy who took a bunch of adderall so he could stay up every night to study?
    Not a very good metaphor. Regardless, there is no easy, across the board answer for the benefits of sign stealing vs. the benefits of PED's.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  2. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Yes I do. I'm not the one making statements like "you can't do anything to counter steroids except walk the guy." That's why I brought it up. Thanks for the input though
    Hey, no problem. I just wanted to point out that the same hole in Zmaster's argument is in your follow-up argument you responded to him with. Cheating helps but it doesn't turn average players in to superstars.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    This is a stupid take tbh.
    Knowing what pitch is coming is a wayyyyyy bigger advantage than PEDs. Not even close.
    If you guys truly believe that why do you expect them still be very good? I expect them to struggle and completely miss the postseason. Combination of playing the game honestly plus what I think with be unbelievable pressure on a number of individuals to prove that the cheating wasnt the reason for their success == struggling and overthinking, trying too hard.

    It will be a tough year for the Astros. At least I hope so since I intend to put money down on it.

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    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 02-16-2020 at 05:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    If you guys truly believe that why do you expect them still be very good? I expect them to struggle and completely miss the postseason. Combination of playing the game honestly plus what I think with be unbelievable pressure on a number of individuals to prove that the cheating wasnt the reason for their success == struggling and overthinking, trying too hard.

    It will be a tough year for the Astros.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk


    Sounds 100% like wishful thinking. I see no reason to think this outside of believing this will be the year that age finally catches up to Verlander and Greinke.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  5. #635
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    Ooh....and you're planning to put money down on this bet? Wow. I'd like a piece of that action. Would be quite the surprise to see the Astros end up not being one of the top 5 teams in the AL.

    PSD: Where the moderators consistently cave to crybaby tattletales and it's a lot safer to be openly racist, hateful, and ignorant than to be a little rude to the racist, hateful, and ignorant

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    If you guys truly believe that why do you expect them still be very good? I expect them to struggle and completely miss the postseason. Combination of playing the game honestly plus what I think with be unbelievable pressure on a number of individuals to prove that the cheating wasnt the reason for their success == struggling and overthinking, trying too hard.

    It will be a tough year for the Astros. At least I hope so since I intend to put money down on it.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    You really think they're missing the postseason? That's absurd to me, but you do you. I'd love to take that bet. It's more likely that they have their fourth straight season of 100-plus wins than them missing the playoffs.

  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post


    Sounds 100% like wishful thinking. I see no reason to think this outside of believing this will be the year that age finally catches up to Verlander and Greinke.
    Yeah, that's the one thing that could tank their season, is if those guys suddenly fall off a cliff. But based on last year, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. McCullers is certainly a wild card, too. If he isn't the guy he was before TJS, they may need to trade for a No. 3 midseason.

    I'm holding out hope that this is the year Whitley makes the club as a starter, though. It's time, and if he pans out, I legitimately think there's a chance for this rotation to be among the best in baseball.

  8. #638
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    A lot of teams will definitely want to throw at the Astros players this season

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    You do realize there were Astros players who cheated and still sucked, right (including mastermind Carlos Beltran who had a 85 wRC+ at home in '17 after compiling a 142 wRC+ at home the year before with the Yankees and Rangers)?
    Spliff agreed with me...thatís how you know the world is gonna end this year


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  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    You do realize there were Astros players who cheated and still sucked, right (including mastermind Carlos Beltran who had a 85 wRC+ at home in '17 after compiling a 142 wRC+ at home the year before with the Yankees and Rangers)?
    ^^^




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  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    To each their own. The Nationals did a good job at keeping their signs under wraps. Like I said, you canít do anything to counter steroids except walk a guy. Not to mention the steroid user is likely going to have a much longer career than the average player.

    At the end of it all, you still have to hit the ball. No Astros put up otherworldly numbers in 2017 and even though Altuve won an MVP, itís not like he put up Bondsian esque numbers.

    Still, Iím waiting for Mike Fiers to face punishment for throwing a no hitter while using pine tar.


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    I don't think sign stealing has as much of an impact on the game as some believe. I think if we took the totality of the results of when the players knew what was coming and compared that to when they didn't, the differences would be fairly negligible.

    But the degree of the results don't matter. Cheating is cheating.


    I'll never care if a team tries to steal signs....with their 25 man roster and their eyes.

    The moment you bring technology into it, you've cheated though.

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Let's put it this way. Who has a better chance of acing a test? The guy who has the answer key or the guy who took a bunch of adderall so he could stay up every night to study?
    Except the answer key is like you have all of the answers to the test, except you have the answers to test version A when you were given test version B.

    Guy who studies has the information regardless, the guy who has the answer key has to plug the answers in, when it might no be chronological. IE guessing fastball when your opponent throws a change up.

    You mix up the signs like the Nats did and you can essentially troll your opponents into thinking the wrong pitch is coming. Sign stealing via tech IMO makes the players mindless, thereís no thinking for themselves. You get so complacent to the bangs or the buzzes that you end up making outs because you end up being premeditated during every pitch.

    Steroids or PEDs given you the advantage of improved recovery, improved muscle mass, etc. Look at guys like Bartolo, Nelson Cruz, Melky Cabrera, etc. All mediocre players that took their game to the next level after/just before they were suspended. Guys like Jake Marisnick - with the sign stealing in tow, was a slightly above average hitter.

    My point is, I donít think thereís a way to quantify how much either one helped. Still, if this whole scheme started in 2016.

    wRC+ in 2016:

    Altuve: 152
    Correa: 123
    Springer: 126

    wRC+ in 2017

    Altuve: 160
    Correa: 152
    Springer: 140

    One could argue that Springer and Correa were going to improve regardless because of their youth and talent level. I would argue that the sign stealing had maybe a 10% increase on wRC+ for these players. If you donít want to argue that and suggest that it had a 20% increase, thatís fine too.

    Nelson Cruz put up a 106 wRC+ in 2012 and the following year gets suspended with a 122 wRC+ then he goes to the Mariners and puts up a near 150 wRC+ cumulative total for three years...his age 34-36 seasons.

    Melky Cabrera goes from 155 games with the Royals, a 118 wRC+ and a 4 fWAR to getting suspended the following year - where he had a 4.5 fWAR in 110 games played, also a 150 wRC+

    Ryan Braun went from winning MVP, a 7 fWAR season and a 160 wRC+ to being suspended to his 2014 campaign being a 113 wRC+ and a 1 win player.

    Yeah I get it, Iím cherry picking a few guys. Point is, itís possible for people to steal signs and still suck. Itís also possible for people to use steroids and still suck. Steroids also prolong a players career, as evidenced with all three guys I mentioned. Steroids make good players great and likely keeps them healthy over a 162 game season. Baseball is a marathon, steroids have effect all season long, sign stealing you can turn on and off.

    I donít care that the Astros stole signs. Honestly, I thought their whole plan was completely genius the way they went about it. The only issue I had was them using it in the playoffs. They should have turned it off in the playoffs but considering the Twins canít turn off Nelson Cruz, itís all a bit eh to me.

    Sign stealing ainít going to keep players healthy over a full season, nor is it going to have positive after effects for years to come, unlike steroids.

    Look, I also get that sign stealing was a systematic problem. I still think half a dozen teams were guilty of this last year, I also realize that just because you know what pitch is coming, doesnít mean youíre a good enough player to hit it.
    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I don't think sign stealing has as much of an impact on the game as some believe. I think if we took the totality of the results of when the players knew what was coming and compared that to when they didn't, the differences would be fairly negligible.

    But the degree of the results don't matter. Cheating is cheating.


    I'll never care if a team tries to steal signs....with their 25 man roster and their eyes.

    The moment you bring technology into it, you've cheated though.
    I agree. Iím not trying to defend what the Astros did but I am completely tired of people soapboxing like the Astros are a 100 loss team without the tech. Still, everybody has access to the same technology, not everybody had access to steroids or if they do, gotta be careful because of random drug tests.

    Thereís definitely more teams doing what the Astros did. 30 teams in the sport and the Astros were the only ones who looked at the live feed? I donít buy it.


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  14. #644
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    Jul 2019
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    This is a Manfred disaster.

    By not punishing the players, who are guilty as sin, those lame and insincere apologies are the only recourse, to which the sports world replied: "try again." With the wound still open and the guilty unpunished, opposing players, and fans, will take it on themselves to do the punishing. I think Dusty is right to ask MLB to step in and preemptively protect his players.

  15. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    Except the answer key is like you have all of the answers to the test, except you have the answers to test version A when you were given test version B.

    Guy who studies has the information regardless, the guy who has the answer key has to plug the answers in, when it might no be chronological. IE guessing fastball when your opponent throws a change up.

    You mix up the signs like the Nats did and you can essentially troll your opponents into thinking the wrong pitch is coming. Sign stealing via tech IMO makes the players mindless, thereís no thinking for themselves. You get so complacent to the bangs or the buzzes that you end up making outs because you end up being premeditated during every pitch.

    Steroids or PEDs given you the advantage of improved recovery, improved muscle mass, etc. Look at guys like Bartolo, Nelson Cruz, Melky Cabrera, etc. All mediocre players that took their game to the next level after/just before they were suspended. Guys like Jake Marisnick - with the sign stealing in tow, was a slightly above average hitter.

    My point is, I donít think thereís a way to quantify how much either one helped. Still, if this whole scheme started in 2016.

    wRC+ in 2016:

    Altuve: 152
    Correa: 123
    Springer: 126

    wRC+ in 2017

    Altuve: 160
    Correa: 152
    Springer: 140

    One could argue that Springer and Correa were going to improve regardless because of their youth and talent level. I would argue that the sign stealing had maybe a 10% increase on wRC+ for these players. If you donít want to argue that and suggest that it had a 20% increase, thatís fine too.

    Nelson Cruz put up a 106 wRC+ in 2012 and the following year gets suspended with a 122 wRC+ then he goes to the Mariners and puts up a near 150 wRC+ cumulative total for three years...his age 34-36 seasons.

    Melky Cabrera goes from 155 games with the Royals, a 118 wRC+ and a 4 fWAR to getting suspended the following year - where he had a 4.5 fWAR in 110 games played, also a 150 wRC+

    Ryan Braun went from winning MVP, a 7 fWAR season and a 160 wRC+ to being suspended to his 2014 campaign being a 113 wRC+ and a 1 win player.

    Yeah I get it, Iím cherry picking a few guys. Point is, itís possible for people to steal signs and still suck. Itís also possible for people to use steroids and still suck. Steroids also prolong a players career, as evidenced with all three guys I mentioned. Steroids make good players great and likely keeps them healthy over a 162 game season. Baseball is a marathon, steroids have effect all season long, sign stealing you can turn on and off.

    I donít care that the Astros stole signs. Honestly, I thought their whole plan was completely genius the way they went about it. The only issue I had was them using it in the playoffs. They should have turned it off in the playoffs but considering the Twins canít turn off Nelson Cruz, itís all a bit eh to me.

    Sign stealing ainít going to keep players healthy over a full season, nor is it going to have positive after effects for years to come, unlike steroids.

    Look, I also get that sign stealing was a systematic problem. I still think half a dozen teams were guilty of this last year, I also realize that just because you know what pitch is coming, doesnít mean youíre a good enough player to hit it.
    This is your fundamental point of disagreement. You admired the cheating. Your only point of contention is that it was used in the playoffs (which is a bizarre line to draw -- is it only cheating then?). You're in the tiniest of minorities, which is your right.

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