Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 22 of 53 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast
Results 316 to 330 of 787
  1. #316
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Rogers Centre
    Posts
    21,402
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
    One of them is on the field and the other is not. If you're a player on the field and can pick up on things then its fair game. Once technology is involved then it takes away the human element and changes the game. It's clear your baseball knowledge is not up to snuff to add much to this discussion. It's been pages and you still don't understand sign-stealing in the traditional sense is not cheating, nor illegal.
    So should instant replay continue to be used? That takes away from the human element of the game. I get that it’s to better the game but when it comes to cheating it’s only for the betterment of your team.

    They’re both trying to achieve the same goal. It’s just impossible to officially catch someone sign stealing without the use of technology. Sure you can accuse people but you’d never be able to suspend people because of lack of evidence. Sign stealing with cameras is just a more efficient way of cheating. It’s just that it leaves open the possibility to be disciplined. None of this has to do with baseball knowledge. They’re doing the exact same thing the players are doing on the field just in an even sneakier way. Much like technology has been added to the game it will also be added to cheating.

    Is watching film of a player when you’re not playing them considered cheating? They’re using cameras to figure out how to get the best advantage against them. Just like they do with electronic sign stealing.

  2. #317
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    31,219
    I just want to throw this out there to anyone who thinks the Dodgers are squeaky clean victims in all of this...
    https://www.dodgersnation.com/dodger...ic/2020/01/08/

    Accusations don't mean anything, but given the nature of this scandal and the rumors behind the scenes, it would surprise me very little if the Dodgers were guilty of this, too. All the fans of teams throwing stones may want to temper their disgust a bit—it may not be long before details come out implicating nearly every contender in the league in the last 3-5 years.


  3. #318
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    31,219
    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    I look forward to seeing how badly they get booed on the road all season. It's gonna be really bad imo. And hilarious. I'm sure fans will come up with some clever signs, chants etc. Can't wait.
    And I look forward to them winning games in spite of it.


  4. #319
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I also post during the playoffs. There isn't a huge Astros fanbase on PSD and I'm more of an NBA guy than an MLB guy, so posting during the regular season seems kind of pointless. Also, your criticism of my posting habits seem kind of hilarious given that you have 175 posts in nearly seven years—a massive chunk of them which have come in these specific threads.


    I'm really not, though. I've never taken this sign-stealing stuff seriously. Even when the Astros accused other teams of doing it, I just laughed it off. I also think PED users should be allowed in the Hall of Fame. So my general opinion of being lighter on "cheaters" has been pretty consistent.

    Baseball is a game. All sports are. The second we start having congressional hearings and start talking about taking away titles and awards and people going to prison over moral gray areas like PEDs and sign stealing, we're taking it too seriously. There are bigger problems going on in the world right now than the Astros using a camera and banging on trash cans to have a better chance at hitting a ball with a wooden stick.


    I just think you conveniently avoided my reply to your talking points. Then on the same page proceeded to clearly take shots at me. Maybe you don't know well enough, because you have all of 175 posts over seven years, but that's pretty crappy forum etiquette.
    Since your sense of propriety has been offended, let's take a minute to address every one of the points you've made in this thread.

    1) The morally corrupt culture of the Astros - you took offense to this categorization, not by me, but by other posters on the forum. Your stance was that while you agreed that the handling of the Taubman issue and the very signing of Osuna was problematic, the league's handling of such cases was also a problem. Fair enough, but the comment was directed at the Astros, so not sure why this was turned into an indictment of the league and professional sports in general. Can't you just admit that the collective set of issues that have come to light in recent months create a really bad look for the Astros - at the highest level? Kudos for agreeing with the Luhnow dismissal - he created and fostered a culture, in Houston, that directly aligns with the poster's comments.

    2) Accountability and the scope of the issue - You claim that you agree that individual teams should be punished, if found cheating. You also then go on to say that again, this is really a bigger issue, and that the scope has really been limited to just 2 teams. Evidence was presented to league, about the Astros, and about the Red Sox, AND Fiers went to the league to report his direct experience with the Astros. I am quite certain that the investigation and the evidence gathered, dictated their direction and which teams and/or invdividuals were to be the focus, based on that information. Again, you seem to be alleging that while you support accountability for breaking the rules, somehow there is a bigger issue here and that the Astros are simply part of hyper focused effort to only look at them. You also go on later to say that they wouldn't have done anything, had Fiers not played the role of whistle blower. Who cares? The evidence against them was overwhelming. Multiple teams had complained and had issues/suspicions about the Astros, and this mounting pile of crap against the organization eventually blew up in their face. The evidence gathered AFTER the whistle blowing incident is worse than what anyone initially presumed - good for the league in doing this. You also wondered about what the other 28 teams were doing. I haven't heard or seen any evidence to suggest that those teams had implemented any such systems, or that other teams had suspected the other of that type of activity - do you have some evidence in that regard?

    3) Cheating is all over the place, why is this different? - You referenced PEDs. You mentioned the Patriots cheating scandal(s), and the Russians cheating in the olympics. This was in response to my claim that by imposing the penalties that MLB did impose and the subsequent dismissals of key staff, that this would be a deterrent for future activity. Your response was to apply Murphy's Law and suggest that cheating will always be a part of sports and people will forever try to gain an edge. I don't think anyone on this entire board has disagreed with that point. The thread is specifically about the Houston Astros and their sign stealing system. We can all agree that bad things happen everyone around the world every day. The Astros still cheated. In all of the above mentioned examples that you gave, there was a crime and their was punishment. In the case of PEDs, the problem has been HUGELY reduced, and while some likely still use, the new penalties have gone a long way to rid the sport of this cancer. The Russians have lost medals, been kicked out of olympic games, chosen to boycott because their athletes have been disallowed from participating, etc. The Patriots have been least penalized in the above examples, and obviously continue to cheat at every opportunity. Neither Belichek nor Brady has been suspended for an entire season. I would love to see harsher penalties here, especially for repeat offenders - I think that is my exact point. It is all about Risk vs. Reward, and if your penalties are punitive enough, teams and players won't be willing to put their necks on the block.

    4) Fact vs. Opinion - You can feel really strongly about something and it is still an opinion. Most of the comments on this board from you, me, others are opinions. We don't have to agree on any of them. No one is obligated to share your opinion, or mine, nor are they obligated to respond to your opinions in the manner in which you think is appropriate. You are not entitled to that. The vast majority of the information I wrote is opinion, as is the vast majority of information you have posted here on the board. The facts are that the Astros cheated, and the various means and extent of that cheating system have been laid out in the commissioner's report for everyone to see. Also factual are the punishments that have been handed down, and the subsequent dismissals of at least 3 people at this point.

    My opinion is that this is not going away, nor is it in any way a garden-variety cheating scandal that happens every day across all sports, and life in general. This is a big deal, and it is going to continue to unfold and affect many people's careers and ultimately several organizations.

    Since I have taken the time to address the points which you claimed I failed to address, why don't you do the same and answer the following simple questions:

    1) Do you think the 2017 Championship for the Astros is tainted based on the fact that this system of sign stealing was, in fact, employed by the team and used during the postseason?

    2) If you don't think the team benefited from the use of this system to the point that it gave them an unfair advantage during the postseason, why do you think they used it?

    3) If you were to dole out penalties or conduct the investigation or process, how would you recommend MLB do this any differently?

  5. #320
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Its sanctimonious. Its going back to the nostalgic yesteryear of baseball where players never did anything wrong, except for the fact that the 1919 Black Sox fixed the WS, players were using pinetar, spit, nail files, to doctor baseballs, and baseball was segregated (among other things).

    As for the rest of your post, the Astros were casualties of their own success. No one would give a **** if the Tigers were doing this. Not saying they're innocent. They clearly broke the rules and deserved a stiffer punishment but rule breaking happens everyday in MLB to some capacity. We live in a world where we protect the things we love. Baseball doesn't need protection though.
    Using nostalgia as proof of my post being sanctimonious is something I can't respond to. With regards to nostalgia: I'm not looking for Nostalgia. I'm 30 years old so Nostalgia for me would be the height of the steroid era. I don't look back on that time and get all the warm and fuzzys thinking about juiceheads. I also never implied or directly stated that the past was much better than now. In fact, I said "It's all bad. Steroids, electronic sign stealing, etc. As fans of the sport, it sucks that we have to accept that it exists.". This means I'm not cool with any form of cheating, not because I think I am morally superior to anyone, but because it takes away from the pleasure of watching the game.

    As for the recycled argument of "if (insert bad team here) were doing this....":
    The tigers have no motivation to cheat.....yet. Cheating would have moved them from a 47 win team to maybe a 55 win team? The teams who we know have cheated in this manner were World Series champions, so they had every reason to look for that unfair advantage. Cheating likely (although calculating these things is really difficult) moved the Astros up into home field advantage, where they could possibly continue their cheating. Same goes for the Sox in 2018.

    I'm glad you acknowledge that they "deserve a stiffer punishment". However, using "rule breaking happens everyday in MLB" as an argument in any capacity (to downplay the severity of cheating, to defend or deflect, etc.) is, as I stated in my previous post, very elementary. MLB should impose consequence that make teams afraid of doing anything like this again. The punishment the Astros received does not accomplish that goal.

    I do agree that baseball does not need protection. They need legitimate consequences for cheating.

  6. #321
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    Using nostalgia as proof of my post being sanctimonious is something I can't respond to. With regards to nostalgia: I'm not looking for Nostalgia. I'm 30 years old so Nostalgia for me would be the height of the steroid era. I don't look back on that time and get all the warm and fuzzys thinking about juiceheads. I also never implied or directly stated that the past was much better than now. In fact, I said "It's all bad. Steroids, electronic sign stealing, etc. As fans of the sport, it sucks that we have to accept that it exists.". This means I'm not cool with any form of cheating, not because I think I am morally superior to anyone, but because it takes away from the pleasure of watching the game.

    As for the recycled argument of "if (insert bad team here) were doing this....":
    The tigers have no motivation to cheat.....yet. Cheating would have moved them from a 47 win team to maybe a 55 win team? The teams who we know have cheated in this manner were World Series champions, so they had every reason to look for that unfair advantage. Cheating likely (although calculating these things is really difficult) moved the Astros up into home field advantage, where they could possibly continue their cheating. Same goes for the Sox in 2018.

    I'm glad you acknowledge that they "deserve a stiffer punishment". However, using "rule breaking happens everyday in MLB" as an argument in any capacity (to downplay the severity of cheating, to defend or deflect, etc.) is, as I stated in my previous post, very elementary. MLB should impose consequence that make teams afraid of doing anything like this again. The punishment the Astros received does not accomplish that goal.

    I do agree that baseball does not need protection. They need legitimate consequences for cheating.
    I agree with most of what you posted. The only thing maybe that I would say is that it feels like, to me, that major leadership roles in the organization being punished for at least a full season, and by example thus far, actually canned by the organization, is a strong deterrent. I can't imagine a manager tolerating the implementation of a system if his very job was on the line. I will say that the more I consider all of this, it would have been nice to see some type of assessment applied to their own competitive interests. Maybe in regards to limiting their participation in international signings?

  7. #322
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    44,859
    Quote Originally Posted by Crovash View Post
    LA Times sports columnist says that the WS should be taken away from Houston:

    https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodge...ill-feel-empty
    Of course they do.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  8. #323
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
    Posts
    29,873
    beltrans niece on twitter claiming altuve and bregman wore some type of electronic buzzers under their shirts.

  9. #324
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    38,995
    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Of course they do.
    LA City Council is saying they should be awarded both World Series titles.

  10. #325
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    38,995

  11. #326
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,769

  12. #327
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    31,219
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    1) The morally corrupt culture of the Astros - you took offense to this categorization, not by me, but by other posters on the forum. Your stance was that while you agreed that the handling of the Taubman issue and the very signing of Osuna was problematic, the league's handling of such cases was also a problem.
    Not sure what exactly you're saying here. I think the league handled the Taubman case appropriately and he deserved to lose his job. The Astros completely butchered it, and I hated the Osuna acquisition the moment it happened and have felt icky about watching him pitch ever since it happened. If I were the next GM of the Astros, I would try to move the guy for pennies on the dollar just to get him off the roster.

    Can't you just admit that the collective set of issues that have come to light in recent months create a really bad look for the Astros - at the highest level? Kudos for agreeing with the Luhnow dismissal - he created and fostered a culture, in Houston, that directly aligns with the poster's comments.
    Yes. 100% agree with all of this. That's why Lunhow had to go, IMO. The sign-stealing scandal aside, the front office did a terrible job handling the Taubman thing and never should have signed Osuna in the first place. While I disagree with the notion that the Astros are this organization of Black Sox-equivalent cheaters who should be wiped from the record books, I absolutely agree that they've earned a reputation as villains in the league. And they need to repair that reputation.

    2) Again, you seem to be alleging that while you support accountability for breaking the rules, somehow there is a bigger issue here and that the Astros are simply part of hyper focused effort to only look at them. You also go on later to say that they wouldn't have done anything, had Fiers not played the role of whistle blower. Who cares? The evidence against them was overwhelming. Multiple teams had complained and had issues/suspicions about the Astros, and this mounting pile of crap against the organization eventually blew up in their face. The evidence gathered AFTER the whistle blowing incident is worse than what anyone initially presumed - good for the league in doing this. You also wondered about what the other 28 teams were doing. I haven't heard or seen any evidence to suggest that those teams had implemented any such systems, or that other teams had suspected the other of that type of activity - do you have some evidence in that regard?
    I'm not saying the Fiers accusation should matter at all in terms of whether the Astros are guilty. They're clearly guilty. I'm saying that I don't think the investigation happens without the Fiers comments. I don't think there are a ton of Mike Fiers-type guys in the league who would out their former teams and teammates.

    As to whether I personally have evidence, of course I don't—I don't work for MLB or have any affiliation to the Astros organization. But prior to the Athletic article, did YOU have any evidence to suggest the Astros were cheating? Did anyone? All anybody had up to that point was conjecture and accusations. And if we're going off of conjecture and accusations, how many teams have been accused of stealing signs illegally or some other form of electronic cheating in recent year? I'm guessing a lot, the Yankees and Dodgers include.

    We can all agree that bad things happen everyone around the world every day. The Astros still cheated. In all of the above mentioned examples that you gave, there was a crime and their was punishment. In the case of PEDs, the problem has been HUGELY reduced, and while some likely still use, the new penalties have gone a long way to rid the sport of this cancer. The Russians have lost medals, been kicked out of olympic games, chosen to boycott because their athletes have been disallowed from participating, etc. The Patriots have been least penalized in the above examples, and obviously continue to cheat at every opportunity. Neither Belichek nor Brady has been suspended for an entire season. I would love to see harsher penalties here, especially for repeat offenders - I think that is my exact point. It is all about Risk vs. Reward, and if your penalties are punitive enough, teams and players won't be willing to put their necks on the block.
    While I don't disagree with any of this, the Patriots are a great example of a team that continues to cheat (in similar to fashion to what the Astros were doing) and continues to get away with it. And while PED use is down, it still happens in baseball. Will the penalties for the Astros and Red Sox curb future teams from doing this? Most definitely. Will it completely solve the problem and prevent teams from ever doing it again? Not likely.

    4) Fact vs. Opinion - You can feel really strongly about something and it is still an opinion. Most of the comments on this board from you, me, others are opinions. We don't have to agree on any of them. No one is obligated to share your opinion, or mine, nor are they obligated to respond to your opinions in the manner in which you think is appropriate. You are not entitled to that. The vast majority of the information I wrote is opinion, as is the vast majority of information you have posted here on the board. The facts are that the Astros cheated, and the various means and extent of that cheating system have been laid out in the commissioner's report for everyone to see. Also factual are the punishments that have been handed down, and the subsequent dismissals of at least 3 people at this point.
    Don't disagree here either. As long as I've been on PSD, I've always said that most discussions are opinion-based. And one like this that is totally subjective even moreso. I'm not expecting you or anybody else to totally come over to my way of thinking—but hopefully you and others can see where I'm coming from and maybe move a little more to the middle.

    My opinion is that this is not going away,
    Agreed.

    nor is it in any way a garden-variety cheating scandal that happens every day across all sports, and life in general.
    Disagree in the sense that I think this is happening in some form or fashion in a lot of clubhouses and has been happening in a lot of clubhouses over the last 3-5 seasons. I agree in the sense that this is the first time there's actual physical proof and an investigation that proved it was actually happening.

    This is a big deal, and it is going to continue to unfold and affect many people's careers and ultimately several organizations.
    Yes, and I don't think the Astros and Red Sox will be alone here, nor should they be. I think if they're investigated, hopefully other teams where there's some smoke, the league will investigate to identify those fires.

    1) Do you think the 2017 Championship for the Astros is tainted based on the fact that this system of sign stealing was, in fact, employed by the team and used during the postseason?
    Yes. There will always be a little bit of a black mark on the title because of this. But at the same time, I don't think it should completely erase the accomplishment like many others seem to think. It's somewhere in the middle. And as much as it sucks, it's not enough to completely erase the feeling of winning that season or what it meant to the city of Houston. A lot of Houstonians feel that way.

    2) If you don't think the team benefited from the use of this system to the point that it gave them an unfair advantage during the postseason, why do you think they used it?
    I think that, to some extent, they had an unfair advantage by using it. Or at least in their minds they felt like they had a competitive edge. But the data from the season shows they were a significantly worse team offensively at home—maybe having the system in place gave them some level of confidence?

    While cheating is cheating, and even the perceived thought of "this thing gives me a competitive edge" is absolutely cheating, I think there's a gray area here in terms of how much of an edge they actually had. All we know is that they had a system in place that continued to the postseason. We don't know who used it, how often it was used, in which games or at bats it was used and what the outcome of those at bats were.

    If we had data we could point to or moments we could point to where the Astros had a huge, series-changing moment because of this system, I'd say "OK, yeah. Clearly the system helped them win the World Series that year." But how do you prove that? If all we know is that the system was in place, but we have no clue what the outcome of those at-bats were, how can you honestly say "the Astros won the World Series because they cheated?" I don't think you can.

    And I think if Manfred and MLB were able to do that, I don't think the Astros would be sitting here today with the 2017 World Series still in the record books.

    3) If you were to dole out penalties or conduct the investigation or process, how would you recommend MLB do this any differently?
    I wouldn't. I think they handled it exactly as they should have. A player went on the record to say "I was there. I watched them cheat." They went to the team, read through thousands of emails and convinced players to speak openly and honestly. And they doled out the punishment to the organization they felt was fair and just. That's a pretty solid investigation, as far as I'm concerned.

    The only thing I'd add is that I think the investigation shouldn't be contained. If they talked to players or staff who happened to say "Yeah, we did this thing, but you should check out this player and this team," then the investigation should expand to those clubs as well. It's already happened to the Red Sox, but I think any team that's been accused of some kind of sign stealing at this point should be investigated.

    If they can request 70,000+ emails from the Astros, they should be doing that for all baseball teams right now to see if there's any indication of cheating they can identify. And if there is, those teams should also be investigated and punished accordingly. Because if all you're doing is investigating the team who had a former player go on the record, that's not fair to the teams or the fans. If they have the means to investigate every team, fans have the right to know who was doing this and who wasn't.


  13. #328
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    31,219


  14. #329
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    31,219
    Here's another fun tidbit from a Bleacher Report article from October: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-sign-stealing

    But given assurances of anonymity, several league sources indicate the Astros, Dodgers, Red Sox, New York Yankees and Arizona Diamondbacks have been especially adept with technological surveillance. One source mentions the Cubs and Washington Nationals dabble a bit "but not as much as others." Another source says the Indians, while still another notes the Toronto Blue Jays and Texas Rangers once were suspected as well.
    Again, I'm not saying the Astros are innocent here. Far from it. But I'd love to see an expanded investigation here that looked at every team that's been accused of this, on or off the record.


  15. #330
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    480
    SIAP. Altuve and Bregman may have to be suspended, too.

    https://twitter.com/dren_braves/stat...176056321?s=21

Page 22 of 53 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •