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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I kinda feel like using your eyes isn't exactly cheating.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    But using your eyes to see a screen is? I see them both as cheating.

  2. #287
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    If only Astros Ace Justin Verlander had as much integrity as Tigers Ace Justin Verlander.
    https://www.thescore.com/news/1321885

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    But using your eyes to see a screen is? I see them both as cheating.
    So using this very issue as an example, and applying that in a different scenario, do you see a difference between say an NFL defensive player or coach picking up on patterns, cadence, or signals from a QB and adjusting their defensive assignments vs. that same coach or player actually getting access to the audio in a QB's helmet? Is one of them cheating, both, neither? Is there any difference at all?

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    So using this very issue as an example, and applying that in a different scenario, do you see a difference between say an NFL defensive player or coach picking up on patterns, cadence, or signals from a QB and adjusting their defensive assignments vs. that same coach or player actually getting access to the audio in a QB's helmet? Is one of them cheating, both, neither? Is there any difference at all?
    They are both cheating. One person is just way better at it.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    You're right. It's a stupid argument anyway to suggest "well players have always cheated, why is this different?". Everyone knows and understands why this is completely different. The league gets it and enacted rules with language specific to the issue. Two men in the Houston organization have lost their job, and now Cora is gone from the Red Sox, unsuprisingly - anyone think he'll be managing again? What will happen with Dombrowski? Clearly this is an entirely new level of cheating, directly in the face of the very rules that were well communicated to all teams. MLB knows that technology is opening new doors of all kinds...some good, some not so good.

    All of the discussion about other forms of cheating, or the feigned indignant responses are nothing more than transparent attempts to take away from the issue specifically with the Astros. Anything is on the table right now for the Astros apologist to come out and defend their actions and recent successes, through any manner of misdirection and nonsensical arguments comparing it to steroids, pine tar, and anything else they can latch on to. This includes blaming MLB itself for not leveraging technology better to stop it.

    There are allegations from the posters that suggest that there is nothing to see here, and that these types of systems will continue to be used in MLB - I hope that mentality is reflective of the Astros in general, and they remain tone deaf to the situation. I hope they continue to use such systems in an attempt to gain an advantage. It won't end well for them.

    This isn't going away, it's anything but a non-issue. I am going to sit back and watch the fallout and enjoy the ride the Astros will be on in the coming months as they pretend their championship is pure and un-tainted, and that their organization is really one to be admired.
    But if they win another WS or more, and all they have to give up again is 5 million and some draft picks, I'd say that's a pretty damn great deal! They can even make sure the manager is compensated for, for his one year suspension, ditto for the gm. This is all assuming they are caught again. Eventually widespread cheating will be more normalized so it honestly will be less of a big deal tbh. It's only a big deal now because the astros were the first to be caught.

    As for Cora, i'm sure he'll have a job by the spring. Perhaps Hinch as well.

  6. #291
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    Hinch is literally banned for a year. Cora will probably join him.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    You're right. It's a stupid argument anyway to suggest "well players have always cheated, why is this different?". Everyone knows and understands why this is completely different. The league gets it and enacted rules with language specific to the issue. Two men in the Houston organization have lost their job, and now Cora is gone from the Red Sox, unsuprisingly - anyone think he'll be managing again? What will happen with Dombrowski? Clearly this is an entirely new level of cheating, directly in the face of the very rules that were well communicated to all teams. MLB knows that technology is opening new doors of all kinds...some good, some not so good.

    All of the discussion about other forms of cheating, or the feigned indignant responses are nothing more than transparent attempts to take away from the issue specifically with the Astros. Anything is on the table right now for the Astros apologist to come out and defend their actions and recent successes, through any manner of misdirection and nonsensical arguments comparing it to steroids, pine tar, and anything else they can latch on to. This includes blaming MLB itself for not leveraging technology better to stop it.

    There are allegations from the posters that suggest that there is nothing to see here, and that these types of systems will continue to be used in MLB - I hope that mentality is reflective of the Astros in general, and they remain tone deaf to the situation. I hope they continue to use such systems in an attempt to gain an advantage. It won't end well for them.

    This isn't going away, it's anything but a non-issue. I am going to sit back and watch the fallout and enjoy the ride the Astros will be on in the coming months as they pretend their championship is pure and un-tainted, and that their organization is really one to be admired.
    Care to respond to my previous reply or are you just going to indirectly reference me and insult me? If you want to engage in debate, let's debate like adults. Don't find the next guy who agrees with you and just keep spewing the same ideas over and over again while criticizing me in the process.


  8. #293
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    For those who thought the Yankees may be involved in any way currently.

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5caca23af9.jpg

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Rush; 01-15-2020 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Edited image. Please do not post images this large.
    He is talking about the one and only, pure trash: Ereck Flowers

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyskilla View Post
    His stern face can give that impression but I don't feel that's the case. New York isn't an easy place to play at, so honestly I can see his confidence at an all-time low for him.

    I don't think he's a bust. I think he just needs the right motivation to pick himself up & play harder.

  9. #294
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    My username may already turn some of you off to this, but I think this part of Manfred's report speaks to why the Astros are getting more heat for this:
    "But while no one can dispute that Luhnow’s baseball operations
    department is an industry leader in its analytics, it is very clear to me that the culture of the
    baseball operations department, manifesting itself in the way its employees are treated, its
    relations with other Clubs, and its relations with the media and external stakeholders, has
    been very problematic. At least in my view, the baseball operations department’s insular
    culture – one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations, combined with a
    staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part,
    to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate
    response to that incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described
    in this report to have occurred."

    He's basically saying they had a negative culture and they were negative towards other clubs and towards the media. In more direct terms: they were ******bags.

    To everyone saying some version of "but other teams do it to": it seems pretty clear that either A.) no other team was stealing signs to this extent or B.) the Astros were hated enough to be called out on it enough. Either way, the Astros organization and the success they've achieved have been tainted to a point that it doesn't matter what Manfred does. Anyone with knowledge of this situation has to have a sour taste in their mouth, whether you root for them or against them. As a Yankee fan, I enjoyed the developing rivalry between the two teams. Now, I don't see them the same way. I don't see it as the Yankees facing a formidable opponent. If the Yankees lose, I won't think "oh man, we have to beat them next year for sure". Now, I don't have any respect for any member of that organization and anything they do will always come with a question of its legitimacy.

    To those comparing this to steroids: please stop with the elementary school argument. "But what they did last week was worst!" - this is something a 1st grader would say when trying to avoid trouble or deflect attention away from him or herself. It's all bad. Steroids, electronic sign stealing, etc. As fans of the sport, it sucks that we have to accept that it exists. It doesn't make as sanctimonious. It means we don't like that we have to accept that this is the way things are.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyyfan555 View Post
    My username may already turn some of you off to this, but I think this part of Manfred's report speaks to why the Astros are getting more heat for this:
    "But while no one can dispute that Luhnow’s baseball operations
    department is an industry leader in its analytics, it is very clear to me that the culture of the
    baseball operations department, manifesting itself in the way its employees are treated, its
    relations with other Clubs, and its relations with the media and external stakeholders, has
    been very problematic. At least in my view, the baseball operations department’s insular
    culture – one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations, combined with a
    staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part,
    to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate
    response to that incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described
    in this report to have occurred."

    He's basically saying they had a negative culture and they were negative towards other clubs and towards the media. In more direct terms: they were ******bags.

    To everyone saying some version of "but other teams do it to": it seems pretty clear that either A.) no other team was stealing signs to this extent or B.) the Astros were hated enough to be called out on it enough. Either way, the Astros organization and the success they've achieved have been tainted to a point that it doesn't matter what Manfred does. Anyone with knowledge of this situation has to have a sour taste in their mouth, whether you root for them or against them. As a Yankee fan, I enjoyed the developing rivalry between the two teams. Now, I don't see them the same way. I don't see it as the Yankees facing a formidable opponent. If the Yankees lose, I won't think "oh man, we have to beat them next year for sure". Now, I don't have any respect for any member of that organization and anything they do will always come with a question of its legitimacy.

    To those comparing this to steroids: please stop with the elementary school argument. "But what they did last week was worst!" - this is something a 1st grader would say when trying to avoid trouble or deflect attention away from him or herself. It's all bad. Steroids, electronic sign stealing, etc. As fans of the sport, it sucks that we have to accept that it exists. It doesn't make as sanctimonious. It means we don't like that we have to accept that this is the way things are.
    Its sanctimonious. Its going back to the nostalgic yesteryear of baseball where players never did anything wrong, except for the fact that the 1919 Black Sox fixed the WS, players were using pinetar, spit, nail files, to doctor baseballs, and baseball was segregated (among other things).

    As for the rest of your post, the Astros were casualties of their own success. No one would give a **** if the Tigers were doing this. Not saying they're innocent. They clearly broke the rules and deserved a stiffer punishment but rule breaking happens everyday in MLB to some capacity. We live in a world where we protect the things we love. Baseball doesn't need protection though.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-15-2020 at 03:34 PM.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Care to respond to my previous reply or are you just going to indirectly reference me and insult me? If you want to engage in debate, let's debate like adults. Don't find the next guy who agrees with you and just keep spewing the same ideas over and over again while criticizing me in the process.
    first of all, I have responded to you multiple times, and directly addressed your issues, so there's that. Secondly, I'll respond to whomever I choose on the forum and reference whichever posts I like. This comment is hilarious coming from someone who only posts in the MLB forum in direct defense of his own team during an obvious at-fault situation. Quit while you're behind.

    We're all fans, and we all see life through our own perspectives and experiences. Get over the thin-skinned attitude and just admit you're a homer on this issue.

    If you don't like THAT response, I'll try not to lose any sleep over your sensitivities.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    first of all, I have responded to you multiple times, and directly addressed your issues, so there's that. Secondly, I'll respond to whomever I choose on the forum and reference whichever posts I like. This comment is hilarious coming from someone who only posts in the MLB forum in direct defense of his own team during an obvious at-fault situation. Quit while you're behind.
    I also post during the playoffs. There isn't a huge Astros fanbase on PSD and I'm more of an NBA guy than an MLB guy, so posting during the regular season seems kind of pointless. Also, your criticism of my posting habits seem kind of hilarious given that you have 175 posts in nearly seven years—a massive chunk of them which have come in these specific threads.

    We're all fans, and we all see life through our own perspectives and experiences. Get over the thin-skinned attitude and just admit you're a homer on this issue.
    I'm really not, though. I've never taken this sign-stealing stuff seriously. Even when the Astros accused other teams of doing it, I just laughed it off. I also think PED users should be allowed in the Hall of Fame. So my general opinion of being lighter on "cheaters" has been pretty consistent.

    Baseball is a game. All sports are. The second we start having congressional hearings and start talking about taking away titles and awards and people going to prison over moral gray areas like PEDs and sign stealing, we're taking it too seriously. There are bigger problems going on in the world right now than the Astros using a camera and banging on trash cans to have a better chance at hitting a ball with a wooden stick.

    If you don't like THAT response, I'll try not to lose any sleep over your sensitivities.
    I just think you conveniently avoided my reply to your talking points. Then on the same page proceeded to clearly take shots at me. Maybe you don't know well enough, because you have all of 175 posts over seven years, but that's pretty crappy forum etiquette.


  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Its sanctimonious. Its going back to the nostalgic yesteryear of baseball where players never did anything wrong, except for the fact that the 1919 Black Sox fixed the WS, players were using pinetar, spit, nail files, to doctor baseballs, and baseball was segregated (among other things).

    As for the rest of your post, the Astros were casualties of their own success. No one would give a **** if the Tigers were doing this. Not saying they're innocent. They clearly broke the rules and deserved a stiffer punishment but rule-breaking happens everyday in MLB to some capacity. We live in a world where we protect the things we love. Baseball doesn't need protection though.
    The difference was the level they were doing it if a runner on second picks up the signs and relays a message to the hitter, that's one thing, change up your signs, but when a team is using high definition camera to track catchers signs and then someone in the dugout relays that information, what are you supposed to do as a catcher.

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban2.0 View Post
    The difference was the level they were doing it if a runner on second picks up the signs and relays a message to the hitter, that's one thing, change up your signs, but when a team is using high definition camera to track catchers signs and then someone in the dugout relays that information, what are you supposed to do as a catcher.
    I understand stealing signs in the traditional sense is widely accepted. I feel differently but I understand i'm in the minority.

    That said, it doesn't deter from my point. If a ****** team did this, no one would care. I'm not sold that teams, players, are playing it by the book. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I think i've said something like this a good 10 times in this thread already. I've been pretty consistent even if I know its an unpopular opinion.

  15. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    But using your eyes to see a screen is? I see them both as cheating.
    One of them is on the field and the other is not. If you're a player on the field and can pick up on things then its fair game. Once technology is involved then it takes away the human element and changes the game. It's clear your baseball knowledge is not up to snuff to add much to this discussion. It's been pages and you still don't understand sign-stealing in the traditional sense is not cheating, nor illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I understand stealing signs in the traditional sense is widely accepted. I feel differently but I understand i'm in the minority.

    That said, it doesn't deter from my point. If a ****** team did this, no one would care. I'm not sold that teams, players, are playing it by the book. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I think i've said something like this a good 10 times in this thread already. I've been pretty consistent even if I know its an unpopular opinion.
    Obviously this is a bigger story because its the Astros. If it's the Mets than the story gets less views. That's pretty basic. If it's the Yankees then it gets even more views. Basic stuff.
    Last edited by AmericanDream; 01-15-2020 at 07:02 PM.

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