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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Good one lol. Joking aside, I would be worried about a team that talented being super motivated. This isn't smoke and mirrors.
    Guys like Correa maybe. Guys like Altuve and Bregman? No way. They've been avoiding talking about the scandal especially Altuve. When other people (Correa) have to speak on your behalf that raises a red flag for me. Face the music and answer the question about the buzzers yourself.

    I don't think every players numbers will drop but some will. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Altuve's numbers take a hit. Not to the point of sucking but nothing close to MVP-like numbers. I fully believe there are players who don't give a **** about what they did and I also believe there are players who feel guilty as hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Guys like Correa maybe. Guys like Altuve and Bregman? No way. They've been avoiding talking about the scandal especially Altuve. When other people (Correa) have to speak on your behalf that raises a red flag for me. Face the music and answer the question about the buzzers yourself.

    I don't think every players numbers will drop but some will. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see Altuve's numbers take a hit. Not to the point of sucking but nothing close to MVP-like numbers. I fully believe there are players who don't give a **** about what they did and I also believe there are players who feel guilty as hell.
    Bregman is still a great player. I don't buy that stealing signs created his MVP like ability. Dude was arguably the best prospect in baseball when he came up. Same with Correa, Springer, Alvarez, etc in terms of talent. Altuve I expect a year where he regresses. He's getting to that age where some of that starts to happen and he's a small guy. I would have said that irrespective of whether he cheated or not. That said, they are still super loaded.

    I'm not defending their comments. The Astros have handled this badly across the board whether its the owners, the players, the former manager, etc. They are still a very good team though.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I think you're dramatically overrating how much of an advantage it is. If the Astros aren't a top 10 offensive team in baseball this season (barring major injury), I'll quit PSD forever.
    I can't believe anyone can say with a straight face that knowing what pitch is coming isnt a huge advantage. Pitch recognition is what separates great hitters from lousy ones. The Astros cut that right out of the equation.

    The question I am wondering about is why didn't they do it more. Were they afraid that getting greedy would be more likely to get them caught? I find this aspect interesting.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  4. #664
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    in 2016 the Astros were 24th in AVG, 19th in OBP, and 14th in OPS

    in 2017, the year of the trash can, the Astros were 1st in AVG, 1st in OBP, and 1st in OPS with a fairly sizable lead in all 3 categories.

    and they increased their win totals by a whopping 17 games over the previous season. just as i am certain there were other factors involved, clearly cheating pays.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    The way you're responding makes me think that you've never played the game. There's more to it than just hitting the pitch. They also could use it to lay off the pitch, buying themselves extra looks while they're up there. Knowing the change in velocity makes all the difference in the world.

    I don't believe for one minute they didn't cheat in 2019. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see them in the top 10 offenses for many reasons. They are still elite. They play in the American League. And ten teams makes up 33% of the league, so it's not unattainable by any means. What really surprised me was seeing how far ahead of the pack they were in the 2017 season. But that all makes sense now.

    And yes, I'm disappointed with how Manfred has handled this whole thing. That guy's a tool.
    if you decide you are going to go up there and sit dead red on a fastball you can literally wait for the confirmation. pitch recognition is the hardest part of hitting and these guys cut it right out of the equation.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    in 2016 the Astros were 24th in AVG, 19th in OBP, and 14th in OPS

    in 2017, the year of the trash can, the Astros were 1st in AVG, 1st in OBP, and 1st in OPS with a fairly sizable lead in all 3 categories.

    and they increased their win totals by a whopping 17 games over the previous season. just as i am certain there were other factors involved, clearly cheating pays.
    That can be explained with progression in talent and adding new pieces. Its not unfathomable. We see teams who rebuild take big steps from one year to the next all the time. I'm not saying that stealing signs didn't help but to prove the extent of how much they helped is impossible. There are too many moving parts and fluid factors. Things are not linear in baseball.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    They still had to hit the pitch. And you have to assume they didn't switch up signs. And you have to assume that knowing what pitch was coming necessarily was the primary factor in allowing them to hit that pitch. Also, let's make a crazy assumption hereóthat maybe MLB's report was accurate, and there was no cheating in 2019. That means they scored the third most runs in the league and had the highest team OPS in baseball WITHOUT cheating.

    If they didn't cheat at all in 2019, that means they offensively got better without the use of illegal sign stealing. And they're bringing back basically an identical baseball team offensively, with a full season of Alvarez and Tucker and a (hopefully) healthy Correa. So, yeah, I feel fairly confident in saying I think they're going to be a top 10 offensive team next season.


    And yet it took a former player coming out and saying they cheated two years later in an Athletic article for MLB to actually do something about it. That's what should keep people up at nightónot that the Astros cheated, but that there were literally million signs pointing to them cheating, but literally nobody did anything about it until two years after the fact. If Mike Fiers never says anything, would the investigation have ever happened? I highly, highly doubt it.
    Right...it had no benefit, yet they did it extensively. For the psychological benefit, right? That's your explanation? A number of the best players in the game are pissed about it...why do you think that is? How many at bats per game do you think it takes to make a difference?

    Acknowledging that the team was good in 2019 doesn't mean that their sign stealing didn't benefit them in the previous two seasons.

    I will give you this - your take is consistent with the rest of the Astros organization. I'd stick to your guns.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    I can't believe anyone can say with a straight face that knowing what pitch is coming isnt a huge advantage. Pitch recognition is what separates great hitters from lousy ones. The Astros cut that right out of the equation.

    The question I am wondering about is why didn't they do it more. Were they afraid that getting greedy would be more likely to get them caught? I find this aspect interesting.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Mike Trout, Kris Bryant, Bryce Harper, etc. have all come out and stated that it is a benefit to know what's coming, and they're pissed about it. These are 3 of the best hitters in the game.

    My guess is that they watched every pitch with the benefit of their video system, but other teams were aware of something going on. If you believe the reports, it was the worst kept secret in baseball, so it seems likely teams were actively trying to stay ahead of it. The Astros were good cheaters, the best the sport has ever seen, so even despite teams' efforts to counter the Astros, they still had many opportunities, to practice their trash can banging, whistling, and e-collar methods.

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    That can be explained with progression in talent and adding new pieces. Its not unfathomable. We see teams who rebuild take big steps from one year to the next all the time. I'm not saying that stealing signs didn't help but to prove the extent of how much they helped is impossible. There are too many moving parts and fluid factors. Things are not linear in baseball.
    Except it's the fact that they were not a rebuilding team that makes it stand out.

    The all-time list of largest improvements season over season is littered with teams like you described, almost all of which started in the high 60's and vaulted to playoff caliber the next.

    The list of teams that are already solid that vault overnight to elite championship level is much much shorter.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    in 2016 the Astros were 24th in AVG, 19th in OBP, and 14th in OPS

    in 2017, the year of the trash can, the Astros were 1st in AVG, 1st in OBP, and 1st in OPS with a fairly sizable lead in all 3 categories.

    and they increased their win totals by a whopping 17 games over the previous season. just as i am certain there were other factors involved, clearly cheating pays.
    In 2015, they were 6th in runs scored and 2nd in OPS. 2016 was seen as a down year and was the rookie seasons of Yuli and Bregman. It makes sense that the team would bounce back with those guys getting more playing time and getting better. They improved offensively at multiple positions in 2017, including catcher with the acquisition of McCann.

    You can't just look at stats across the board between seasons and go "Clearly they cheated!" The personnel was completely different in 2017. And then there's the fact that they were a vastly superior offensive team on the road that year that everyone likes to conveniently overlook.

    (Again) I'm not saying that the cheating didn't have an impact. I'm saying I don't think the cheating is the difference between these guys being good players and being great players or them being a an OK offensive team to a historic offensive team. They were already damn good baseball players. And if you didn't believe it based on 2019 production, you'll believe it in 2020.


  11. #671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Except it's the fact that they were not a rebuilding team that makes it stand out.

    The all-time list of largest improvements season over season is littered with teams like you described, almost all of which started in the high 60's and vaulted to playoff caliber the next.

    The list of teams that are already solid that vault overnight to elite championship level is much much shorter.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    They only became an over .500 team in 2015. Its easy to see where their roster continually got better, especially as they started to add more pieces and their younger talent started to blossom. We've never seen young teams incrementally get better? How about the Royals from 2012 to 2015? In 2012, they won 72 games, they won 86 in 2013, made it to the WS in 2014 and won it in 2015.

    These things do happen. Remember all those years the Astros were awful and had top 5 pick after top 5 pick? In those years, they were putting together one of the best farm systems in baseball.
    Last edited by metswon69; 02-17-2020 at 09:35 PM.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    If you ainít cheating, you ainít trying.

    Funny enough, I called the World Series being Nats vs Astros and I had the Astros winning. I was rooting for the Nationals, though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I see no difference between cheating in the post season as opposed to cheating in the regular season. Further, I, and nearly everyone else in the world, looks down on cheating generally, which is why this has created such a huge uproar.

    Believe it or not, I respect you for admitting that you don't care. To each his own.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofdad View Post
    Right...it had no benefit, yet they did it extensively. For the psychological benefit, right? That's your explanation? A number of the best players in the game are pissed about it...why do you think that is? How many at bats per game do you think it takes to make a difference?
    You keep back to that one post that you completely took out of context. I said I don't think they needed to steal signs, but that it gave them a mental edge. I don't necessarily think it gave them no tangible benefit in terms of production. Did they probably get hits off pitches they would have missed or lay off pitches they would have otherwise swung at? Almost certainly. But is that the difference between them winning games in the postseason? There's no way to know. It's impossible to prove.

    Acknowledging that the team was good in 2019 doesn't mean that their sign stealing didn't benefit them in the previous two seasons.
    I'm not sure what your take is here or what point you're trying to prove. My point about them being good in 2019 is that, to anyone who thinks there's going to be a huge dropoff in production this year, they were arguably the best offensive team in baseball in 2019. You'd have to assume they cheated last year to think there'd necessarily be a huge dropoff offensively.

    And even if they did cheat last year (which I still think there's no evidence to suggest), the idea that they're suddenly going to go from a top 3 offensive team to a mediocre squad offensively with the personnel they have just doesn't add up.


  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    I see no difference between cheating in the post season as opposed to cheating in the regular season. Further, I, and nearly everyone else in the world, looks down on cheating generally, which is why this has created such a huge uproar.

    Believe it or not, I respect you for admitting that you don't care. To each his own.
    Idk. I donít see cheating in a game in mid April as the same as cheating in October.

    Iím incredibly cynical, I donít think the world is fair or has ever been fair. The rich keep getting richer while wages stay the same...sorry wrong sub.

    At least your username checks out.


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    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    They only became an over .500 team in 2015. Its easy to see where their roster continually got better, especially as they started to add more pieces and their younger talent started to blossom. We've never seen young teams incrementally get better? How about the Royals from 2012 to 2015? In 2012, they won 72 games, they won 86 in 2013, made it to the WS in 2014 and won it in 2015.

    These things do happen. Remember all those years the Astros were awful and had top 5 pick after top 5 pick? In those years, they werep uutting together one of the best farm systems in baseball.
    Yeah, it's not a coincidence that the Astros suddenly started playing better in 2017, and you can't just attribute that all to trash can banging. Springer, Correa and Bregman were all top 11 first round draft choices playing in their fourth, third and second seasons, respectively. Add in an offensive bump at catcher with McCann, Altuve playing around the most stacked offensive he's ever had, the second season of a stellar Cuban player in Yuli and the acquisition of Reddick, and it's really not hard to see why the team was better offensively.


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