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  1. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    You really think they're missing the postseason? That's absurd to me, but you do you. I'd love to take that bet. It's more likely that they have their fourth straight season of 100-plus wins than them missing the playoffs.
    Continue to reference all the success they had while cheating as reasoning for why they will surely excel.

    Baseball is a sport where no matter how stripped down your roster is you can't help but win 60 (or 20 less than a .500 team), and no matter how loaded you are 105 wins is pretty much the upper limit.

    There is zero doubt in my mind that any good team in baseball can win 100 games if you tell them what is coming. And good teams miss the playoffs every season. The Indians won 93 games and missed. So can I see them winning 86 games without cheating? Of course, because we have no baseline for how good these guys are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #647
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    As a Reds fan I think it's hilarious that Yankee fans are going on and on about the Astros but yet the Yankees are the king of steroid suspensions aka cheating

  3. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Not a very good metaphor. Regardless, there is no easy, across the board answer for the benefits of sign stealing vs. the benefits of PED's.
    Itís a great metaphor.

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Continue to reference all the success they had while cheating as reasoning for why they will surely excel.

    Baseball is a sport where no matter how stripped down your roster is you can't help but win 60 (or 20 less than a .500 team), and no matter how loaded you are 105 wins is pretty much the upper limit.

    There is zero doubt in my mind that any good team in baseball can win 100 games if you tell them what is coming. And good teams miss the playoffs every season. The Indians won 93 games and missed. So can I see them winning 86 games without cheating? Of course, because we have no baseline for how good these guys are.

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    I think you're dramatically overrating how much of an advantage it is. If the Astros aren't a top 10 offensive team in baseball this season (barring major injury), I'll quit PSD forever.


  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    I agree. Iím not trying to defend what the Astros did but I am completely tired of people soapboxing like the Astros are a 100 loss team without the tech. Still, everybody has access to the same technology, not everybody had access to steroids or if they do, gotta be careful because of random drug tests.

    Thereís definitely more teams doing what the Astros did. 30 teams in the sport and the Astros were the only ones who looked at the live feed? I donít buy it.


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    We know the Red Sox already too.

    So you're thinking that people that live in glass houses are throwing stones? Because if it's me, I'm not saying **** about sign stealing if my team has been doing it too. Given the sheer volume of players speaking up, I'm not sure it's wide spread.

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    I think you're dramatically overrating how much of an advantage it is. If the Astros aren't a top 10 offensive team in baseball this season (barring major injury), I'll quit PSD forever.
    I think you're drastically underselling how much of an impact it had. There were some games where they banged that can 50 times. 50 TIMES in one game the hitters knew what was coming.

    I really just can't believe how stupidly obvious they were about it.

  7. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I think you're drastically underselling how much of an impact it had. There were some games where they banged that can 50 times. 50 TIMES in one game the hitters knew what was coming.
    They still had to hit the pitch. And you have to assume they didn't switch up signs. And you have to assume that knowing what pitch was coming necessarily was the primary factor in allowing them to hit that pitch. Also, let's make a crazy assumption hereóthat maybe MLB's report was accurate, and there was no cheating in 2019. That means they scored the third most runs in the league and had the highest team OPS in baseball WITHOUT cheating.

    If they didn't cheat at all in 2019, that means they offensively got better without the use of illegal sign stealing. And they're bringing back basically an identical baseball team offensively, with a full season of Alvarez and Tucker and a (hopefully) healthy Correa. So, yeah, I feel fairly confident in saying I think they're going to be a top 10 offensive team next season.

    I really just can't believe how stupidly obvious they were about it.
    And yet it took a former player coming out and saying they cheated two years later in an Athletic article for MLB to actually do something about it. That's what should keep people up at nightónot that the Astros cheated, but that there were literally million signs pointing to them cheating, but literally nobody did anything about it until two years after the fact. If Mike Fiers never says anything, would the investigation have ever happened? I highly, highly doubt it.


  8. #653
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    I'd bet everything I own that the Astros have a top 10 offense once again as well.

    "there's no scraps in my scrapbook"

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeMeNot View Post
    This is your fundamental point of disagreement. You admired the cheating. Your only point of contention is that it was used in the playoffs (which is a bizarre line to draw -- is it only cheating then?). You're in the tiniest of minorities, which is your right.
    If you ainít cheating, you ainít trying.

    Funny enough, I called the World Series being Nats vs Astros and I had the Astros winning. I was rooting for the Nationals, though.


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    If Trump can become president with no political background then I don't understand why I need a resumť

  10. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    I'd bet everything I own that the Astros have a top 10 offense once again as well.
    Like I said previously, there's a reason why the Astros over/under for wins in Vegas is 97. People who think they're just going to disappear are greatly mistaken. This team has a lot of talent and they're going to come in with a chip on their shoulders. If it wasn't for the Yankees, I think the Astros would be favorites to win the AL again.
    Last edited by metswon69; 02-17-2020 at 05:08 PM.

  11. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Like I said previously, there's a reason why the Astros over/under for wins in Vegas is 97. People who think they're just going to disappear are greatly mistaken. This team has a lot of talent and they're going to come in with a chip on their shoulders. If it wasn't for the Yankees, I think the Astros would be favorites to win the AL again.
    I'd be curious to know what the impact of MLB's investigation results were on the over/under. I'd be willing to bet there was little to no impact at all, because I think Vegas knows the sign stealing has a negligible impact on performance, and a talented baseball team is a talented baseball team regardless if they have a camera in the outfield or not.


  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Like I said previously, there's a reason why the Astros over/under for wins in Vegas is 97. People who think they're just going to disappear are greatly mistaken. This team has a lot of talent and they're going to come in with a chip on their shoulders. If it wasn't for the Yankees, I think the Astros would be favorites to win the AL again.
    So they'll be moving the buzzers to their legs?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  13. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    They still had to hit the pitch. And you have to assume they didn't switch up signs. And you have to assume that knowing what pitch was coming necessarily was the primary factor in allowing them to hit that pitch. Also, let's make a crazy assumption hereóthat maybe MLB's report was accurate, and there was no cheating in 2019. That means they scored the third most runs in the league and had the highest team OPS in baseball WITHOUT cheating.

    If they didn't cheat at all in 2019, that means they offensively got better without the use of illegal sign stealing. And they're bringing back basically an identical baseball team offensively, with a full season of Alvarez and Tucker and a (hopefully) healthy Correa. So, yeah, I feel fairly confident in saying I think they're going to be a top 10 offensive team next season.


    And yet it took a former player coming out and saying they cheated two years later in an Athletic article for MLB to actually do something about it. That's what should keep people up at nightónot that the Astros cheated, but that there were literally million signs pointing to them cheating, but literally nobody did anything about it until two years after the fact. If Mike Fiers never says anything, would the investigation have ever happened? I highly, highly doubt it.
    The way you're responding makes me think that you've never played the game. There's more to it than just hitting the pitch. They also could use it to lay off the pitch, buying themselves extra looks while they're up there. Knowing the change in velocity makes all the difference in the world.

    I don't believe for one minute they didn't cheat in 2019. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see them in the top 10 offenses for many reasons. They are still elite. They play in the American League. And ten teams makes up 33% of the league, so it's not unattainable by any means. What really surprised me was seeing how far ahead of the pack they were in the 2017 season. But that all makes sense now.

    And yes, I'm disappointed with how Manfred has handled this whole thing. That guy's a tool.

  14. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    So they'll be moving the buzzers to their legs?
    Good one lol. Joking aside, I would be worried about a team that talented being super motivated. This isn't smoke and mirrors.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    The way you're responding makes me think that you've never played the game. There's more to it than just hitting the pitch. They also could use it to lay off the pitch, buying themselves extra looks while they're up there. Knowing the change in velocity makes all the difference in the world.
    Sorry if I don't buy the "You didn't play the game, therefore your opinion is invalid" argument. I just don't. It doesn't work in the NBA forum, and it doesn't work here. You can't sit here and tell me that whatever baseball experience you have makes you significantly more qualified to comment on the impact of something like this at the major league level than any other poster.

    Did it help? Almost certainly. But how much it helped is a complete hypothetical we'll never really know.

    I don't believe for one minute they didn't cheat in 2019.
    That's fine. You have no evidence, but you're entitled to your beliefs, as unproven as they might be.

    But I also wouldn't be surprised to see them in the top 10 offenses for many reasons. They are still elite. They play in the American League. And ten teams makes up 33% of the league, so it's not unattainable by any means. What really surprised me was seeing how far ahead of the pack they were in the 2017 season. But that all makes sense now.
    Are we just going to ignore the fact that other teams got busted in 2017 for illegally using technology for stealing signs? Boston got busted, and they were in the bottom tenth of the league in team OPS that season.

    And yes, I'm disappointed with how Manfred has handled this whole thing. That guy's a tool.
    We can all agree on this, at least.


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