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  1. #6811
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I mean Cole can shoot. And Maxey I think will be a good shooter. He's always shot well at the FT line and from 3 outside of his 1 year at KU. I think he can be a Bledsoe type or even a DM.

    But what we need just as much as shooting is someone who can break down a defense and create for others. That's why Ball is #1 on everyone's list.

    Hali can shoot but can he break down a defense? He never draws fouls. He's an east/west kinda PG, not north/south. He's a Malcom Brogdon type with better passing. And I love Brogdon, but if you have a chance to get someone that can break down a defense you do it. Hayes is just an unknown.
    Facilitator is key and neither Maxey or Cole are facilitators, they're scorers. You say break down the D because you expect that to create opps for others but when these two break down D's they're looking to get for themselves and usually they do it inefficiently.

    They're both considered scoring guards and although I see Cole translating better than Maxey, both don't give the Knicks the facilitator you're saying we really need.

  2. #6812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    I keep hearing this is a weak draft but when I look at the bigs, they look pretty impressive.

    Wiseman, Onyeka, Obi, Deni, Paul Reed, Jalen Smith, Bey, Precious, and Im sure Im missing some.
    Those guys should mostly be solid NBA players.

    But the NBA isnt looking for solid rotational bigs anymore.

    We just added a bunch of bigs last off season, how did that work out for us? Those guys dont have the value they once did in todays game.

  3. #6813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Facilitator is key and neither Maxey or Cole are facilitators, they're scorers. You say break down the D because you expect that to create opps for others but when these two break down D's they're looking to get for themselves and usually they do it inefficiently.

    They're both considered scoring guards and although I see Cole translating better than Maxey, both don't give the Knicks the facilitator you're saying we really need.
    I posted this elsewhere but there are a ton of great PG's in the NBA now that weren't great facilitators in college. The NBA is a different game. Lillard averaged 2.9apg/2.3 TO's his freshman year at Weber State, against much easier comp. Would you have said don't take him b/c he's not a facilitator? Or nash? or Curry? Or Kemba? or WB?

    NBA game is space and pace, and P&R to death. You don't need elite vision or passing skills to be a great PG anymore.

  4. #6814
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    Quote Originally Posted by cericanguy View Post
    I posted this elsewhere but there are a ton of great PG's in the NBA now that weren't great facilitators in college. The NBA is a different game. Lillard averaged 2.9apg/2.3 TO's his freshman year at Weber State, against much easier comp. Would you have said don't take him b/c he's not a facilitator? Or nash? or Curry? Or Kemba? or WB?

    NBA game is space and pace, and P&R to death. You don't need elite vision or passing skills to be a great PG anymore.
    Bingo, now that all these scoring pgs have green light to pull and pop from anywhere, teams are spreading the court, and drilling them on how to find their shot, or hit the open man. It's not complicated at all.

    van fleet being the perfect example of showing how easy it is to teach this, as long as you have a pg who has the ability to pull and pop and is physically gifted enough to force the defense to collapse from time to time, than that pg should thrive in today nba.

  5. #6815
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I mean Cole can shoot. And Maxey I think will be a good shooter. He's always shot well at the FT line and from 3 outside of his 1 year at KU. I think he can be a Bledsoe type or even a DM.

    But what we need just as much as shooting is someone who can break down a defense and create for others. That's why Ball is #1 on everyone's list.

    Hali can shoot but can he break down a defense? He never draws fouls. He's an east/west kinda PG, not north/south. He's a Malcom Brogdon type with better passing. And I love Brogdon, but if you have a chance to get someone that can break down a defense you do it. Hayes is just an unknown.
    Halliburton is also more of a spot up shooter. He doesnít have a pull up game at all and what heís able to do off the dribble in general is lacking. Thatís why a lot of people think that heíll ultimately be a secondary ball handler, not a PG.

  6. #6816
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Halliburton is also more of a spot up shooter. He doesnít have a pull up game at all and what heís able to do off the dribble in general is lacking. Thatís why a lot of people think that heíll ultimately be a secondary ball handler, not a PG.
    yea i was high on him at first, but digging deeper I just dont see him as someone to break down a defense or attack or hit tough 3's like you say. He might be another Frank type in terms of play style.

  7. #6817
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I posted this elsewhere but there are a ton of great PG's in the NBA now that weren't great facilitators in college. The NBA is a different game. Lillard averaged 2.9apg/2.3 TO's his freshman year at Weber State, against much easier comp. Would you have said don't take him b/c he's not a facilitator? Or nash? or Curry? Or Kemba? or WB?

    NBA game is space and pace, and P&R to death. You don't need elite vision or passing skills to be a great PG anymore.
    Damian Lilliard was always a much more efficient scorer and and lethal shooter than Maxey or Cole and even though he wasn't a great distributor, his scoring and shooting was always better than these two guys. And even today, his scoring and shooting is so elite that he's still considered great. Max and Cole would have to raise their efficiency and 3pt shooting accuracy substantially to be that type of scoring guard.

    Im saying don't take either of them because they're not good at what you think they're good at, which are scoring combo guards. Obviously they aren't facilitators but we all know that's a given. Cole i have some belief in being a lethal 6th man high side Kemba type but with his injuries and inefficiencies, he's a little bit of a ? which is why his stock has fallen apparently.

  8. #6818
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    if i'm the KNicks i'm looking this offseason for ELITE skills.

    GIve me a PF that is an ELITE shooter.

    Give me a PG that is an elite shooter, or great at breaking down a defense.

    We dont need SOLID or DECENT. we need someone who can move the needle. If not Ball I think Maxey or Cole should be the guys.

  9. #6819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Damian Lilliard was always a much more efficient scorer and and lethal shooter than Maxey or Cole and even though he wasn't a great distributor, his scoring and shooting was always better than these two guys. And even today, his scoring and shooting is so elite that he's still considered great. Max and Cole would have to raise their efficiency and 3pt shooting accuracy substantially to be that type of scoring guard.

    Im saying don't take either of them because they're not good at what you think they're good at, which are scoring combo guards. Obviously they aren't facilitators but we all know that's a given. Cole i have some belief in being a lethal 6th man high side Kemba type but with his injuries and inefficiencies, he's a little bit of a ? which is why his stock has fallen apparently.
    Lillard played in a joke of a conference though. Context matters. and his freshman year he shot 37% from 3 on lower volume, mind you this was the 20 foot college 3pter. not the NBA 3 that Cole shot 35% from against MUCH tougher comp.

    When you look at context, Cole is one of those guys that might be overlooked and be much better in the NBA.

    my point was don't dismiss these guys as not being PG's just b/c they weren't good facilitators in college. Lillard never averaged more than 4apg in college in 4 years, he's at 8.0 in the NBA now. it's a different game.

    there's nothing stopping Cole or Maxey from being PG's in the NBA when you look at their skillset.
    Last edited by nycericanguy; 08-19-2020 at 11:21 AM.

  10. #6820
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    I'm not saying we should or shouldnt trade up for cole.

    But the knicks are all time stupid if they trade up for anyone who isnt a ball handling 3 point ace.

    How many more players who cant handle the rock and pull the 3 can we keep adding to this roster before we finally get it?

    You guys may think cole should be available, and that you can trade back and still get him, but the entire nba is watching these playoffs, and Last years playoffs and thinking, we need more 3 point shooting.

    May be better all around players in the draft, but none of them can pull and pop like Cole.
    I agree regarding his skill set. Itís not opinion though that heís projected as a mid-late lottery pick. Heís nowhere near the top 5 conversation.

  11. #6821
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Lillard played in a joke of a conference though. Context matters. and his freshman year he shot 37% from 3 on lower volume, mind you this was the 20 foot college 3pter. not the NBA 3 that Cole shot 35% from against MUCH tougher comp.

    When you look at context, Cole is one of those guys that might be overlooked and be much better in the NBA.

    my point was don't dismiss these guys as not being PG's just b/c they weren't good facilitators in college. Lillard never averaged more than 4apg in college in 4 years, he's at 8.0 in the NBA now. it's a different game.

    there's nothing stopping Cole or Maxey from being PG's in the NBA when you look at their skillset.
    When does 4 (3pt) attempts per game equal to low volume? Neither Maxey or Cole has ever proven to have that kind of lethal touch from deep and if conference mattered so much when it comes to taking 3's,why did Lillard come into the NBA and shooting 37% on 6 attempts in his rookie yr? Cause conference doesn't matter. If you can shoot from deep, you're a shooter, period. Just ask Curry.

    You say look at context but Cole played on NC. Yes, they weren't good but it's still NC. He should've been able to do better than what he did. Maybe the injuries played a part but once again, that's kind of an issue.

  12. #6822
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I agree regarding his skill set. Itís not opinion though that heís projected as a mid-late lottery pick. Heís nowhere near the top 5 conversation.
    Ya I havent really followed basketball draft stuff since covid started so I have no idea where players are being projected.

    But I also think that the projections are probably pretty wacky this year based on need, skill, and position, and the complete lack of high end talent.

    I'm not even a big cole fan, never have been, but I dont understand how his skill set alone doesnt automatically jump him ahead of most of this drafts prospects.

    I think these guys doing the projections are under appreciating that factor.

  13. #6823
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeAnotherL View Post
    I'm not saying we should or shouldnt trade up for cole.

    But the knicks are all time stupid if they trade up for anyone who isnt a ball handling 3 point ace.

    How many more players who cant handle the rock and pull the 3 can we keep adding to this roster before we finally get it?

    You guys may think cole should be available, and that you can trade back and still get him, but the entire nba is watching these playoffs, and Last years playoffs and thinking, we need more 3 point shooting.

    May be better all around players in the draft, but none of them can pull and pop like Cole.
    Jahmi'us Ramsey.

  14. #6824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    When does 4 (3pt) attempts per game equal to low volume? Neither Maxey or Cole has ever proven to have that kind of lethal touch from deep and if conference mattered so much when it comes to taking 3's,why did Lillard come into the NBA and shooting 37% on 6 attempts in his rookie yr? Cause conference doesn't matter. If you can shoot from deep, you're a shooter, period. Just ask Curry.

    You say look at context but Cole played on NC. Yes, they weren't good but it's still NC. He should've been able to do better than what he did. Maybe the injuries played a part but once again, that's kind of an issue.
    I said LOWER volume. Never said Lillard cant shoot. Thats my point, shooters who can handle the rock and break down the defense will be fine and even better at the NBA level at the PG position. Like Cole. and if you believe that Maxey can shoot, like a lot of ppl do despite the poor % last year, then he'll be just fine at PG too.

    there's no question to me that Cole can shoot 37% from 3 at NBA level, and that the space will open the game up for him.

  15. #6825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Jahmi'us Ramsey.
    Ramsey can ball, hes a pure scoring sg imo.

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