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  1. #5146
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Yep exactly, and neither is D-Lo. Harden is extremely strong though, while Russell isnít. Hayes is somewhere in-between IMO, probably closer to Russell right now as an 18 year old.

    Anyone that is questioning Hayesís shot has to be more concerned about LaMeloís shot. His shot right now is worse by every measure.
    I have an ill believe when I see attitude with all these guys jump shots


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #5147
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Mitch didnít cost a pick that high, is super cheap, and is one of the few bright spots for the team.

    If Mitch were in the draft, I wouldnít take him that high either. I doubt teams would trade a pick that high for him for the same reasons.
    I don't get it. If the draft Mitch was in, was redone, he would be a top 10 pick or lottery pick for sure...and if you add a short range and post up game to Mitch, similar to Wiseman, he goes even higher. Why do you think Wiseman is that high in the draft in the first place, or Obi, or Onyeka? It's because bigs DO impact the game in a major way and will obviously impact the game more than a middle of the road PG otherwise, why would all these bigs be in the top 10?

    If LaMelo and Edwards are gone, Wiseman is the obvious choice, even for the Knicks. Trade Mitch for the middle of the road PG you guys want but Wiseman looks like the real deal in every way.

  3. #5148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    I don't get it. If the draft Mitch was in, was redone, he would be a top 10 pick or lottery pick for sure...and if you add a short range and post up game to Mitch, similar to Wiseman, he goes even higher. Why do you think Wiseman is that high in the draft in the first place, or Obi, or Onyeka? It's because bigs DO impact the game in a major way and will obviously impact the game more than a middle of the road PG otherwise, why would all these bigs be in the top 10?

    If LaMelo and Edwards are gone, Wiseman is the obvious choice, even for the Knicks. Trade Mitch for the middle of the road PG you guys want but Wiseman looks like the real deal in every way.
    Youíre always liking the ďdogĒ kind of players, right? Wiseman is the furthest from that. Attitude/makeup issues, not a high motor/compete level. Also questions how good on defense he will be(or wants to be)

    Talent and ability for sure, but thereís red flags as well

    And outside of Jokic, or Giannis, no bigs are #1 on a contender. AD couldnít even do it. Iíd bet if Philly had to pick between Embiid and Simmons, they choose Simmons
    Last edited by ShadyOne; 07-12-2020 at 10:01 AM.

  4. #5149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Youíre always liking the ďdogĒ kind of players, right? Wiseman is the furthest from that. Attitude/makeup issues, not a high motor/compete level. Also questions how good on defense he will be(or wants to be)

    Talent and ability for sure, but thereís red flags as well

    And outside of Jokic, or Giannis, no bigs are #1 on a contender. AD couldnít even do it. Iíd bet if Philly had to pick between Embiid and Simmons, they choose Simmons
    Yes, I like players and yes, i like alfa dogs like Cole, Iggy, and Harper, our new PG. If you were paying attention, we were taking about the impact of a good big vs a mediocre PG. I think Wiseman is going to be a good big whereas I look at Hayes as a guy who'll be in the league a long time and possibly be an average starter but Wiseman looks like he could impact a game much greater... That's my point. Knicks need to stick with "best player available" strategy.

  5. #5150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    Yes, I like players and yes, i like alfa dogs like Cole, Iggy, and Harper, our new PG. If you were paying attention, we were taking about the impact of a good big vs a mediocre PG. I think Wiseman is going to be a good big whereas I look at Hayes as a guy who'll be in the league a long time and possibly be an average starter but Wiseman looks like he could impact a game much greater... That's my point. Knicks need to stick with "best player available" strategy.
    Thereís no way of saying with any certainty Wiseman is a good big, while Hayes is an average starter. Considering the question marks, what if Wiseman is a Whiteside-type? Guy who puts up numbers, and is good when he wants to be, but doesnít contribute much to winning. A lot of scouts/sites/posters disagree with your assessment of Wiseman being BPA in that situation

    And bigs that play tough defense are worth something to good teams. Meh defensive guys, not so much

    We have a defensive big. Good backcourts are extremely important. We donít have that

  6. #5151
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Thereís no way of saying with any certainty Wiseman is a good big, while Hayes is an average starter. Considering the question marks, what if Wiseman is a Whiteside-type? Guy who puts up numbers, and is good when he wants to be, but doesnít contribute much to winning. A lot of scouts/sites/posters disagree with your assessment of Wiseman being BPA in that situation

    And bigs that play tough defense are worth something to good teams. Meh defensive guys, not so much

    We have a defensive big. Good backcourts are extremely important. We donít have that
    My assessment is that Wiseman is likely to make more of an impact and probably has more upside than any PG in the draft not named LaMelo. If that's the wrong assessment then all of these PG's will come off the boards before Wiseman right? Best Payer Available is what Knicks should be thinking and probably are. They'd be lucky and extremely thankful to get Wiseman out of this draft, who are we kidding... It's not their first choice I imagine but he's in the top 3 behind Edwards and LaMelo as far as best available and best for Knicks long term imo.
    Last edited by Bivory; 07-12-2020 at 11:42 AM.

  7. #5152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    My assessment is that Wiseman is likely to make more of an impact and probably has more upside than any PG in the draft not named LaMelo. If that's the wrong assessment then all of these PG's will come off the boards before Wiseman right? Best Payer Available is what Knicks should be thinking and probably are. They'd be lucky and extremely thankful to get Wiseman out of this draft, who are we kidding... It's not their first choice I imagine but he's in the top 3 behind Edwards and LaMelo as far as best available and best for Knicks long term imo.
    Depends what teams draft where. As thereís no huge separation in BPA, so Iíd say teams will draft for need. And a bunch of teams donít need PGs

  8. #5153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    I don't get it. If the draft Mitch was in, was redone, he would be a top 10 pick or lottery pick for sure...and if you add a short range and post up game to Mitch, similar to Wiseman, he goes even higher. Why do you think Wiseman is that high in the draft in the first place, or Obi, or Onyeka? It's because bigs DO impact the game in a major way and will obviously impact the game more than a middle of the road PG otherwise, why would all these bigs be in the top 10?

    If LaMelo and Edwards are gone, Wiseman is the obvious choice, even for the Knicks. Trade Mitch for the middle of the road PG you guys want but Wiseman looks like the real deal in every way.
    I'm not saying they aren't good or not worthy of a top 10 pick. I'm just saying that there is such a thing as positional value. It's no different than RBs in the NFL. If you take one that high, they better be a player like Barkley, McCaffery, or Elliott. If you take a big man in the top 3 of the NBA draft, they better be AD, Embiid, or Jokic.

    Also, I'm more talking about taking Wiseman 1st overall. I would absolutely take him in the top 10, but just not sure how worth it, it is considering that they already have Mitch. Basically a better guard and a lesser big is more valuable than a better big and a lesser guard - which is what you may get by drafting Wiseman and trading Mitch - unless you're talking about a big man like AD, Embiid, Jokic, etc.

    I didn't mean middle of the road PG. It could be slightly lesser.
    Last edited by smood999; 07-12-2020 at 01:00 PM.

  9. #5154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bivory View Post
    My assessment is that Wiseman is likely to make more of an impact and probably has more upside than any PG in the draft not named LaMelo. If that's the wrong assessment then all of these PG's will come off the boards before Wiseman right? Best Payer Available is what Knicks should be thinking and probably are. They'd be lucky and extremely thankful to get Wiseman out of this draft, who are we kidding... It's not their first choice I imagine but he's in the top 3 behind Edwards and LaMelo as far as best available and best for Knicks long term imo.
    No, because NBA teams still think in a traditional manner. That's why both Ayton and Bagley were drafted ahead of Doncic and Young.

    I've been saying from the beginning that Wiseman will likely go 1 or 2 for this same reason.

  10. #5155
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    Star PG's can dominate without playing D. These days a C needs to dominate on BOTH ends these days to really have the same impact.

    Guys like KAT & DMC can literally drop 28/12/4 and still not make the playoffs because they only play one end.

  11. #5156
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    No, because NBA teams still think in a traditional manner. That's why both Ayton and Bagley were drafted ahead of Doncic and Young.

    I've been saying from the beginning that Wiseman will likely go 1 or 2 for this same reason.
    This is a strange draft and I wonít be surprised if Wiseman goes top 3 but I wonít be surprised if he drops to 8 or 9 either (Iím sure Charlotte or Washington would love to snag him).

    Toppin same thing. Could see him going top 5, but wonít be shocked if he drops to 10-15.

    Okongwu Iím expecting to go between 4 and 7.

    And oh yeah donít be surprised if in 3 years Poku is better than all of these guys.

  12. #5157
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    Okongwu is the best big in this draft IMO. He's a Biyumbo with an offensive game and that can be a hellueva player. we saw Biyumbo have a big impact in the playoffs for TOR a few years ago being able to guard almost everyone on the court. he just never developed enough offense to be able to stay on the court.

  13. #5158
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Star PG's can dominate without playing D. These days a C needs to dominate on BOTH ends these days to really have the same impact.

    Guys like KAT & DMC can literally drop 28/12/4 and still not make the playoffs because they only play one end.
    I still think it was surrounding cast more than anything with those two. Jokic has pretty much shown that an elite offensive big can still make a huge impact.

    To your point though, thereís less wiggle room for them as opposed to guards. They canít just be good if they donít provide much defensively. They have to be elite offensive players.

  14. #5159
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I still think it was surrounding cast more than anything with those two. Jokic has pretty much shown that an elite offensive big can still make a huge impact.

    To your point though, thereís less wiggle room for them as opposed to guards. They canít just be good if they donít provide much defensively. They have to be elite offensive players.
    Jokic is really the exception rather than the norm. not many centers are going to get 8, 9 assists with ease like he does. And I'm always skeptical of how good DEN really is, they are pretty much a .500 team the past 2 years away from the biggest HCA in all of sports that is the Denver air.

  15. #5160
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    Maybe but they may also believe that guys like Ayton and Wiseman have more of a chance to be elite than do their PG counterparts. I think Ayton is going to be a beast and I would've likely taken him over Trae due to Trae being so bad on D.

    I think if we were comparing 2 guys who have equal potential, then an argument for the PG is there but Wiseman seems to have more potential than all of these PG's imo except LaMelo.

    If you had the choice or any PG in the draft not named LaMelo would you take him over Wiseman if you're the Knicks or could trading Mitch or trading Wiseman get you a better PG? I say take Wiseman and trade for the PG you know is the guy as opposed to risking it on the unknown pg.

    BTW, this is what happens when there's no sports. I start thinking of ridic scenarios like Lamelo being gone and Wiseman there when Knicks pick. Likely that they'll both be gone.
    Last edited by Bivory; 07-12-2020 at 01:51 PM.

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