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  1. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    As far as I can tell the #s tell a different story:

    1. 55.9% of All Stars drafted between 2010-2019 were taken after the 8th pick!!
    2. If you remove 2018 (because it is still too early for those guys) then the # jumps to 59%

    In comparison, between 2010 & 2019 ONLY 50% of #1 picks were All Stars (33% of #2 picks and 50% of #3 picks). If you remove data from 2018/2019 (because its early and Zion was injured) then it becomes only 62.5%

    Another bit of perspective is that the #9 pick has faired just as well as the #2 pick in that span and leaps and bounds better than the #4 pick (1 All Star from 9).

    Here are the players:

    9) Gordon Hayward
    10) Paul Gorge
    9) Kemba Walker
    11) Klay Thompson
    15) Kawhi Leonard
    16) Nikola Vucevic
    30) Jimmy Butler
    60) Isaiah Thomas
    9) Andre Drummond
    35) Draymond Green
    39) Khris Middleton
    15) Giannis Antetokounpo
    27) Rudy Gobert
    41) Nikola Jokic
    13) Devin Booker
    11) Domantis Sabonis
    27) Pascal Siakam
    13) Donovan Mitchell
    14) Bam Adebayo

    So the moral of the story is draft well, develop well and you can do very well regardless of your draft position. You might even end up w/a Greek Freak type player!
    So youíre telling me that from 2010-2019, nearly 50% of the All Stars were from the top 8 picks, and that a bit more than 50% of the All Stars were from the subsequent 52 picks, and thatís your argument against trying to have better draft position?!

  2. #1847
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    I'm actually saying that 38.2% of the All Stars were from the top 3 picks and then 5.9% are from picks 4-8.

    So if you aren't picking 1-3 then you might as well pick 9-15.

    And most All Stars were picked from position 9+. You can say its a #s game and so the total number will be higher when you have a higher sample set. That's true. But the talent in the lottery is supposed to outweigh that. And within the top 3 picks it ALMOST does.

    But I think the fact that many of these players were picked lower than they'd hoped and had to work hard to prove themselves is an underrated and powerful thing.


    BTW, there are currently 5 teams w/ a better chance than us to get the top 3 picks...
    Last edited by oballers; 03-10-2020 at 02:26 PM.

  3. #1848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    Come on you ignored the point, I asked for the practical solution. You are stuck in debating abstracts. See Mike Budenholzer. Was fired after ignoring those instructions. Mike has 0 incentive to tank unless given an extension, he's auditioning for a new job, and Leon doesn't have enough clout yet. So either he has to be very convincing or he has to Fire Mike. This is another reason why the Fizdale firing as usual was poorly timed.

    PS: I also just said those are the things they should do. Bench Ellington Portis & Taj. Randle should get an injury. But I don't know what Leon is thinking. Maybe he's still deciding on how hard he wants to try to trade Randle this summer. And I'm assuming he cares way more about that then getting a look at Peters or the other junk you brought up
    practical solution is to buy out a couple of vets, reduce minutes for a few others and just play the youngings like a normal horrible team does in March.

    Leon is the president, he doesn't have the clout to tell Miller to play the youngins?

  4. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    I'm actually saying that 38.2% of the All Stars were from the top 3 picks and then 5.9% are from picks 4-8.

    So if you aren't picking 1-3 then you might as well pick 9-15.

    And most All Stars were picked from position 9+. You can say its a #s game and so the total number will be higher when you have a higher sample set. That's true. But the talent in the lottery is supposed to outweigh that. And within the top 3 picks it ALMOST does.

    But I think the fact that many of these players were picked lower than they'd hoped and had to work hard to prove themselves is an underrated and powerful thing.


    BTW, there are currently 5 teams w/ a better chance than us to get the top 3 picks...
    Thereís also the idea that you donít need all stars..

    You need generational talent. I remember a while back we complied a list we all mostly agreed on, of elite players over the last 30 years. Majority of them came from the top 5 picks. All stars or borderline all stars are nice, but to win titles, you need better than that.

    Of that list of players, how many are good enough to be #1s? I see at most 3. Why not do everything you can to have a shot at getting one

  5. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadyOne View Post
    Might as well keep winning games, guarantee a nice pick between 8 and 10

    Team canít even lose right
    Very frustrating. So Knickslike.

  6. #1851
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    Simple buy out Payton, Ellington and Portis...then you get rid of DSJ and Knox either through trade to another team or send one or both to G League cuz they ain't cutting it anymore...keep Taj Gibson, keep Bullock and keep Frank. Randle is still there and so is Mitch in this equation. Then you draft a PG...but as far as who it is...it could be LaMelo, RJ Hampton even though he is a SG he can play the 1 (PG), Killian Hayes, Tyrese Haliburton...

    Or if you keep Frank as your PG...you draft a SG then instead but best available right now are Killian Hayes, RJ Hampton, Anthony Edwards, etc.

    Either way y'all need a PG or an SG right now. RJ then at the 3.

    Next year's line up for next season could consist of

    PG- Frank Ntilikina
    SG- Anthony Edwards/Killian Hayes/RJ Hampton depending on who is drafted

    SF- RJ Barrett
    PF- Julius Randle
    C- Mitch Robinson


    Or another lineup

    PG- LaMelo Ball
    SG- Whoever your 2nd draft pick could be depending
    SF- RJ Barrett
    PF- Julius Randle
    C- Mitch Robinson

    A young core but one that could be further developed

  7. #1852
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    practical solution is to buy out a couple of vets, reduce minutes for a few others and just play the youngings like a normal horrible team does in March.

    Leon is the president, he doesn't have the clout to tell Miller to play the youngins?
    That is tantamount to telling him to tank. And the players to do the same thing. And to loop in Bubba's comment from the last page, the idea that we're ultimately okay if the young guys play major minutes and lead us to wins is a fantasy. They mostly suck beyond the guys that are already getting major minutes, Mitch, RJ, Frank, and begrudgingly I say Knox. So a coach who is trying to win will not do that, especially if it requires deliberately benching better, older players.

    He can tell Miller to play the youngins sure. But will Mike listen to a guy that just got here that hasn't told him what position he'd be occupying next year? Since when do GMs decide playing rotations? We ran Phil out of town for trying to coach from the office remember. I'm telling you there is atleast one example of a coach ultimately getting fired for not listening to Ownership instructions to tank. That guy now coaches the best team in the East. If I'm Mike, I keep trying to win. Just keeping it real.

    He's not going to buy out Payton, that would be monumentally silly and uncalled for. Ellington sure because he could land on a playoff team. Portis just need to be benched, don't see him wanting a buyout. Taj needs to spot Mitch. And Randle can be convinced to have an injury. Leon can control 2 out of 4 things, he can convince Randle to sit and he can buy out Ellington. Portis can be cut imo.
    Last edited by Shawn2timer; 03-10-2020 at 04:58 PM.

  8. #1853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    That is tantamount to telling him to tank. And the players to do the same thing. And to loop in Bubba's comment from the last page, the idea that we're ultimately okay if the young guys play major minutes and lead us to wins is a fantasy. They mostly suck beyond the guys that are already getting major minutes, Mitch, RJ, Frank, and begrudgingly I say Knox. So a coach who is trying to win will not do that, especially if it requires deliberately benching better, older players.

    He can tell Miller to play the youngins sure. But will Mike listen to a guy that just got here that hasn't told him what position he'd be occupying next year? Since when do GMs decide playing rotations? We ran Phil out of town for trying to coach from the office remember. I'm telling you there is atleast one example of a coach ultimately getting fired for not listening to Ownership instructions to tank. That guy now coaches the best team in the East. If I'm Mike, I keep trying to win. Just keeping it real.

    He's not going to buy out Payton, that would be monumentally silly and uncalled for. Ellington sure because he could land on a playoff team. Portis just need to be benched, don't see him wanting a buyout. Taj needs to spot Mitch. And Randle can be convinced to have an injury. Leon can control 2 out of 4 things, he can convince Randle to sit and he can buy out Ellington. Portis can be cut imo.
    Cuban flat out said the Mavs were tanking a few years ago and Carlise was on board. How could Miller NOT listen to orders from above?

    How is buying out Payton monumentally silly? DET bought out Reggie Jackson who is a much better player, at the very least, you don't play Payton 30mpg in mid March!

    your post is otherwise agreeing with me, unfortunately there seems to be no end to Taj starting, Ellington playing over Iggy, Dot & Trier, and Portis playing big minutes.

    you realize we didn't buy out a single player? why?... we of all teams had most reason to, especially all these 1 year deals.

  9. #1854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    That is tantamount to telling him to tank. And the players to do the same thing. And to loop in Bubba's comment from the last page, the idea that we're ultimately okay if the young guys play major minutes and lead us to wins is a fantasy. They mostly suck beyond the guys that are already getting major minutes, Mitch, RJ, Frank, and begrudgingly I say Knox. So a coach who is trying to win will not do that, especially if it requires deliberately benching better, older players.

    He can tell Miller to play the youngins sure. But will Mike listen to a guy that just got here that hasn't told him what position he'd be occupying next year? Since when do GMs decide playing rotations? We ran Phil out of town for trying to coach from the office remember. I'm telling you there is atleast one example of a coach ultimately getting fired for not listening to Ownership instructions to tank. That guy now coaches the best team in the East. If I'm Mike, I keep trying to win. Just keeping it real.

    He's not going to buy out Payton, that would be monumentally silly and uncalled for. Ellington sure because he could land on a playoff team. Portis just need to be benched, don't see him wanting a buyout. Taj needs to spot Mitch. And Randle can be convinced to have an injury. Leon can control 2 out of 4 things, he can convince Randle to sit and he can buy out Ellington. Portis can be cut imo.
    I thought Phil was ran out for trying to get value for KP since Knicks don't like getting good return.

    Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk

  10. #1855
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Cuban flat out said the Mavs were tanking a few years ago and Carlise was on board. How could Miller NOT listen to orders from above?

    How is buying out Payton monumentally silly? DET bought out Reggie Jackson who is a much better player, at the very least, you don't play Payton 30mpg in mid March!

    your post is otherwise agreeing with me, unfortunately there seems to be no end to Taj starting, Ellington playing over Iggy, Dot & Trier, and Portis playing big minutes.

    you realize we didn't buy out a single player? why?... we of all teams had most reason to, especially all these 1 year deals.
    Key is Cuban the owner wanted tank and here your asking team president who left his sweet gig to do opposite of what that meddling owner wants fake wins.

    Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by cheetos185; 03-10-2020 at 06:55 PM.

  11. #1856
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    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    As far as I can tell the #s tell a different story:

    1. 55.9% of All Stars drafted between 2010-2019 were taken after the 8th pick!!
    2. If you remove 2018 (because it is still too early for those guys) then the # jumps to 59%

    3. Finally only 2 out of 34 All Stars in the last 10 years were drafted in positions 4-8!!!

    In comparison, between 2010 & 2019 ONLY 50% of #1 picks were All Stars (33% of #2 picks and 50% of #3 picks). If you remove data from 2018/2019 (because its early and Zion was injured) then it becomes only 62.5% (37.5% for 2nd pick and 40% for 3rd pick)

    Another bit of perspective is that the #9 pick has faired just as well as the #2 pick in that span and leaps and bounds better than the #4 pick (1 All Star from 9).

    Here are the players:

    9) Gordon Hayward
    10) Paul Gorge
    9) Kemba Walker
    11) Klay Thompson
    15) Kawhi Leonard
    16) Nikola Vucevic
    30) Jimmy Butler
    60) Isaiah Thomas
    9) Andre Drummond
    35) Draymond Green
    39) Khris Middleton
    15) Giannis Antetokounpo
    27) Rudy Gobert
    41) Nikola Jokic
    13) Devin Booker
    11) Domantis Sabonis
    27) Pascal Siakam
    13) Donovan Mitchell
    14) Bam Adebayo

    So the moral of the story is draft well, develop well and you can do very well regardless of your draft position. You might even end up w/a Greek Freak type player! If you aren't drafting 1,2,3 then forget tanking period. Because drafting at 9, 11, 15 can be just as fruitful depending on your scouting and who is available.
    Great, so 19/468 picks after number 8 became All Stars, meanwhile 15/72 within the top 8 became All Stars.

    Again, do we understand percentages and probability?

    This doesnít even get into how many were or are capable of being top options, how many are potentially HOFíers, and how many are even capable of leading a team into contention.
    Last edited by smood999; 03-10-2020 at 10:41 PM.

  12. #1857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn2timer View Post
    We're exactly 1 game away from the 2nd worst record in the league with 18 games still left.

    What's the practical suggestion, that's what I never get out of these conversations. Rose needs to fire Mike Miller and instruct the interim to bench Ellington, Taj & Portis. That's the only way it works. And that might not be the easiest thing to do optics wise. Beyond that Mike will continue to try to win, as he should.

    Although he does have to make a decision on Payton so I think he continues to play and start, but maybe Randle can be given an injury.
    Look we do this every year. Other teams never have a problem with shutting down players, waiving players, going to a complete youth movement, playing G Leaguers, etc.

    To the next thing youíre going to raise - no it doesnít guarantee anything, but one route comes with a potential reward while the other is more likely neutral if not a negative.

    Itís not us, itís the way the system is set up.

  13. #1858
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    Great, so 19/468 picks after number 8 became All Stars, meanwhile 15/72 within the top 8 became All Stars.

    Again, do we understand percentages and probability?

    This doesnít even get into how many were or are capable of being top options, how many are potentially HOFíers, and how many are even capable of leading a team into contention.
    Most of those guys fall between 9 and 16, so its more like 15/80 compared w/ 15/72. But yes you are right that between picks 1-3 you're more likely to hit on a franchise changing "HOF'ers".

    But with 5 teams having worse records than the Knicks already and all those teams thinking the same thing that you are, I think we're better off winning a few games and building up the players we have. I'm not saying we have to play guys that have no chance of being here next year, but I am also saying winning is not only good for morale, and a good way to get the young guys to pick up their games, but it also helps us build the culture that we want long term.

    Maybe I'm saying that I don't think its possible to out suck the teams that suck worse than we do...
    Last edited by oballers; 03-10-2020 at 10:56 PM.

  14. #1859
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    Quote Originally Posted by oballers View Post
    Most of those guys fall between 9 and 16, so its more like 15/80 compared w/ 15/72. But yes you are right that between picks 1-3 you're more likely to hit on a franchise changing "HOF'ers".

    But with 5 teams having worse records than the Knicks already and all those teams thinking the same thing that you are, I think we're better off winning a few games and building up the players we have. I'm not saying we have to play guys that have no chance of being here next year, but I am also saying winning is not only good for morale, and a good way to get the young guys to pick up their games, but it also helps us build the culture that we want long term.

    Maybe I'm saying that I don't think its possible to out suck the teams that suck worse than we do...
    I canít buy it. Iíve never seen a ďgood cultureĒ without good players. Players ultimately dictate what is perceived as good culture and at times the culture is actually miserable, but it doesnít matter because they are winning.

    Thereís what weíve been taught about sports and what pro sports actually is. I just feel like people get too caught up in the ideologies that they donít realize that itís not necessarily reality.

    How many years have we said these wins are good for morale and the future only to go into the next season with most of those players gone and with the late season wins proving to be absolutely meaningless and sometimes even detrimental?

  15. #1860
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I canít buy it. Iíve never seen a ďgood cultureĒ without good players. Players ultimately dictate what is perceived as good culture and at times the culture is actually miserable, but it doesnít matter because they are winning.

    Thereís what weíve been taught about sports and what pro sports actually is. I just feel like people get too caught up in the ideologies that they donít realize that itís not necessarily reality.

    How many years have we said these wins are good for morale and the future only to go into the next season with most of those players gone and with the late season wins proving to be absolutely meaningless and sometimes even detrimental?
    Well, me since 2007 and you since 2008... so too many times. Not sure what to say other than I hope we can turn it around sooner than later. But at this stage, all I have left is patience and time.

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