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  1. #1426
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    That's way too much for a pick outside of the lottery or at best late lottery. They should be able to move up for less if they wanted to.
    replace Knox with Dotson since Nesmith would project to be the 3 &D guy anyway.

    I think thats fair value to move from 25 to 16 or so.

  2. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    replace Knox with Dotson since Nesmith would project to be the 3 &D guy anyway.

    I think thats fair value to move from 25 to 16 or so.
    I read it wrong...what you suggested is about right.

    I forgot that the Clippers pick is what they'd be moving up from.

  3. #1428
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    I've really grown indifferent on Knox. the other game he finally took a pullup baby jumper for once. instead of those wild floaters. but almost 2 years and he's just doing the same things. doesn't seem to have a great feel for anything.

    I think when he gets bigger and stronger he can be a stretch 4, but even then you gotta question his defense and awareness.

  4. #1429
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    Preview with an expert: Who the Knicks should look forward to in 2020 NBA Draft

    The second segment of the NBA season starts Friday for the Knicks (pedantic point: it is not the second half when there are only 27 games left) and surely all eyes will be glued to the court at Madison Square Garden. But the minds of Knicks fans, well, those might be wandering a bit. Perhaps to May and June, when the Knicks will learn their lottery fate and then make a pick in the NBA Draft. Itís only natural, with the Knicks at 17-38 and owners of the fifth-worst record in the league.

    The choice will give the Knicks a chance to add much needed young talent to a franchise thatís low on that. Rookie RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson are bright spots in a down season, while Frank Ntilikina and Kevin Knox remain questions going forward. Barrett, Ntilikina and Knox represent the last three lottery picks for the Knicks, and their development to this point explains why the organization is at another crossroads.

    Who the Knicks will add to that group will help determine the teamís fate for the next few years. It will also be the first draft pick made by incoming team president Leon Rose.

    If the Knicks keep their pick, which, as of this moment, could be as high as No. 1 and as low as No. 9 (though thatís unlikely), it will be the first time theyíve made and kept a first-round pick in four consecutive seasons since 2006-09. In those years, the Knicks selected Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari and Jordan Hill.

    To get an idea of what the lottery looks like, The Athletic talked to Spencer Pearlman, who writes about draft prospects for The Stepien and consulted for the Suns ahead of the 2019 draft. Also, weíll sprinkle in some musings from Sam Vecenieís latest mock draft.

    Before we go on, hereís what Vecenie wrote last week to summarize this draft: ďFew teams are excited about having picks at the top of the draft. In fact, Iíve talked to multiple scouting director-level or higher executives who would actually prefer their team not get a top-two pick. They donít think that pick is certain to bring a star Ö and thus might not have as much trade value as a normal year. Indeed, this is not a great year to end up near the top.Ē

    The Knicks, at this point, are about evenly split in terms of their probability of landing a top-four pick or No. 6 or 7. (Thereís a 42.1 percent chance it lands in the top four and 46.4 percent in total to land at No. 6 or 7. There is a 10.5 percent chance they get the No. 1 pick.) Thatís a wide chasm in where they could be picking. So here is an attempt to get an idea of who to look forward to in this draft where the Knicks could pick.

    (Spencerís answers have lightly edited for clarity and length)

    How do you evaluate the lottery in this draft and the players who could be available, especially in the top 10?

    The weird thing about this year, though, is the top talents (Tier 1 guys) arenít normal Tier 1 players. While they are talented in their own right, they each have their own holes in their games, which then brings you to the question, ďWould you rather roll the dice on someone who can be the best player in the draft or would you rather take someone who has a lower ceiling, but also a higher floor?Ē

    Another thing to note is the point guard depth. You have LaMelo Ball, Killian Hayes, Cole Anthony, Tyrese Haliburton, though Iím not sure how Haliburton will be able to run an offense on his own; he could be a nice ancillary piece similar to Lonzo Ball. But then you have Theo Maledon, Nico Mannion, Kira Lewis Ö and you also have guys like Yam Madar, Carlos Alocťn, Rokas Jokubaitis, Tre Jones and Cassius Winston. There are some nice point guards who will go outside the top 20 or so who could provide nice value as high level backups, potential spot starters ó the depth is there for that position.

    What Iím trying to say is that teams need to find the cutoff point for the guys they like. If you can get a nice wing ó say, Deni Avdija or Isaac Okoro ó in the lottery and pick up a point guard with nice backup guard potential (or maybe spot starter potential) in the back third of the first round or in the second round, isnít that better than taking a point guard who has a low ceiling as a bottom-third starting point guard level and a backup wing who isnít a spot starter? In a draft like this, where the talent level isnít that high to begin with, itís about finding guys who can exceed their value at their draft position, or at least meet it, which will be difficult to do by itself given the starting salary for rookies.

    Another quick note on finding value: the game has gone more toward skilled players and versatility, especially in the playoffs. This drives down the value of limited skill-set bigs (or non-outlier bigs). While a team might ďhaveĒ to pick a big because of a high floor (or whatever reason they come up with), that player, if he does not develop, might have a hard time beating the value of the contract as a rookie and then again on his extension, which can lead to problems down the line.

    Like you said, this draft is perceived to be worse off at the top than years past. The Knicks could land the top pick this spring. Who is your top player in the draft? And how many people can make a case for that crown?

    My top player is kind of always in flux, but itís been Ball for the last couple of weeks. I had Hayes up there a little bit before that, and Edwards to start the season. In between Edwards and Killian, there was kind of a lull where I didnít have anyone ó I just didnít feel comfortable taking anyone first overall (and in some ways, I still donít). If the Knicks did get No. 1, the first thing I would do is look to trade down a bit. Iím not sure what they could get or if any other teams would have great interest in moving up. But in a draft like this, I think it could be the right move.

    With Ball, I know there are shot concerns, but he has good touch, showed promise in catch-and-shoot situations, and even flashed some nice off-the-dribble jumpers. Defensively, he can make the right read and rotate in team defense, but the effort comes and goes. He really had some bad luck on some shots he defended. He has the length and quickness to be a nice on-ball defender, but the frame isnít great. Then, the passing. Man, heís an unbelievable passer. Elite level, preternatural passer ó someone who knows whatís going to happen before it happens. Heíll force some passes and try some passes he shouldnít try, but I think that can be coached out. The vision he has and the ability to make every pass in the book is unreal.

    Hayes is another guy who you can make an argument for because he too is a high level passer. Not to Ballís level, but a very good one in his own right. Unlike Ball, though, Hayesí shot projection is a bit easier to make. The form on his jumper looks good, although it may be a bit low and slow, and he ďthumbsĒ the ball a bit, which I donít think is a huge issue. He has a beautiful free throw stroke and percentage and has shown the ability to hit off-the-bounce jumpers. Thereís a bit more defensive potential because of his size, but the athleticism concerns are there on both sides of the ball.

    Edwards is a litmus test of pure shot making ability and shot selection/IQ. He can make pretty much every shot in the book Ė pull-up jumpers, sidesteps, stepbacks ó from all areas of the court and can get hot quickly. But his shot selection is worrisome. On the flip side, heís pretty much Georgiaís only perimeter scoring threat and creator, so his shot selection could be a byproduct, at least partially, of the surrounding talent. Out of these three, Edwards is the best finisher and the best athlete. He has an insane frame ó youíd just want to see him attack the rim a bit more and not settle for as many bad shots. He takes a lot of poor shots between 12-22 seconds left on the shot clock. If he can hone in on his team defense a bit more and work on his shot selection, he could be a really nice player even without being a high level passer ó but it really comes down to that.

    I can make an argument for Avdija being in that top tier, but heís probably just below that level, though I like his game, too.

    Obviously the Knicks would love to get the top pick in this draft. Even in a bad draft you still want to go first. But as of now they could pick anywhere from first (10.5 percent chance) to ninth (0.6 percent chance). You have three players in the conversation for the top overall pick. Where do you see the tiers and drop-offs in the lottery portion of this draft? After what pick does the risk increase substantially?

    I think there is a pretty good risk whoever is drafted first overall doesnít turn out to be worthy of the first overall pick and ends up a rotation piece, so the risk is pretty high from the get-go. I think, in some ways at least, guys who are projected to go after the top two or three might be safer because of the skill set they already have ó they just donít have the high-upside, franchise star/core talent that the top tier might.

    As of right now, I have the aforementioned three players in Tier 1. After that, I have Deni Avdija and Isaac Okoro, and in no particular order, Tyrese Haliburton, Cole Anthony and Onyeka Okongwu. Iíd say the value after that drops, but not in some insane way where it goes from starter to bust from Tier 2 to Tier 3. Instead, it goes from starter with core potential in Tier 2 to role players with starter potential in Tier 3. (James Wiseman is the exception here. Being the top of Tier 3, a potential core piece, I just think there is a lot of risk with him also and his skillset/archetype doesnít have that much value in the NBA, unless he becomes a terror on defense and a rim runner.)

    I know some have pretty big Tier 2s, but I donít feel comfortable adding other guys there (yet?).

    Who do you have outside of your top 10ish right now that you think has the potential to ultimately become one of the top five players in this draft?

    Tough question. In terms of impact, Devin Vassell (Editorís note: No. 21 in Vecenieís latest mock) would probably be my guy. He has a good chance of being a really high impact two-way player in the NBA. Heís an elite defender, fits in his role well, and can shoot a bit from the outside, though the volume isnít there. He is similar to a Robert Covington-type player.

    I guess you could put Theo Maledon (EN: No. 14) there, too. Iíd like to see him clean up his footwork a bit and improve his defense, but heís a very good pick-and-roll player, can shoot, and is a great finisher, despite concerns about his athleticism.

    Kira Lewis (EN: No. 23), if he continues to improve his point guard skills, gets stronger, and improves his shot. In a similar mold, RJ Hampton (EN: No. 13) could break big, but he has to improve his feel, shot and passing ability, for starters. And he could also go the opposite direction because, while heís shown some nice flashes, the skill development has to be on point here because he has a lot to work on.

    Tyrese Maxey (EN: No. 5) could also provide nice value because of his defense and shooting projection, but heís someone who would have to be paired with another perimeter creator to run the offense because thatís really not in his skill set.

    The Knicks have the fifth-worst record right now. So letís assume they get the fifth pick in the draft. Can you do a mini-mock draft down to the fifth pick and give an evaluation of whoever you think would go fifth to the Knicks there?

    Adding a qualifier, if the standings as they currently are ends up being the draft order, I think there could be a lot of trade activity.

    1. Warriors: Wiseman. I fully expect Golden State to trade down or out if it gets No. 1.
    2. Cavaliers: Edwards. This pick would be followed by a trade of Collin Sexton, or I guess Darius Garland.
    3. Hawks: Avdija. I would have pencilled Onyeka Okongwu in here before Atlanta traded for Clint Capela.
    4. Timberwolves: Okongwu. Isaac Okoro could be an option here, too.
    5. Knicks: Ball. I think Ball has a really good chance ending up with the Knicks even if they donít get first overall. There are arguments to be made for teams above selecting Ball, but I donít think theyíre particularly strong ones or all that logical.

    (Editorís Note: Ball is the pick for the Knicks in Vecenieís latest mock draft, too. His reasoning: Ball is represented by CAA, which has long had an influence on the Knicks. Now, former CAA player agent Leon Rose looks likely to take over the teamís president of basketball operations role, so he should be very familiar with what Ball can bring to the table. And yet, nonetheless, this would be an unquestioned home run for the Knicks if Ball was to fall here. The team desperately needs a long-term point guard now that it seems clear the Dennis Smith Jr. situation isnít the answer. Ball would give them a terrifically high-upside option at the position. This is an easy call.)

    Why do you have Wiseman going first if you have him in Tier 3?

    Because Iím not the one making the decision for the teams and am not sure how every team views certain guys. Okongwu works way better than Wiseman does in Golden State (and I just think heís better), so that could be an option if the Warriors keep the pick. If that happens, Wiseman might go second, the Hawks get Edwards, the Wolves get Avdija, and the Knicks get Ball. If I were drafting for each team, thatís probably what I would do.
    I just think Wiseman will be the first big to get selected because a team will see the size and stick to the thinking that they can develop the game. I believe Mo Dakhil said on a podcast last week that teams tend to think they can develop raw prospects, whether right or wrong.

    Since you have the Knicks taking Ball, I know you analyzed him a little bit earlier, can you go into what you think of his shot and how worrisome that is? He also seems to be a different player than his brother, Lonzo, even if they play the same position.

    (Editorís Note: The Athleticís scouting report and explainer on Ball)

    The shooting form is definitely concerning, but I think itís fixable and the percentages are not necessarily a direct result of his form. Heís already raised the release point from where it was a few years ago. However, he still has to fix the double elbow flare, which is there on most jumpers but looks less prevalent on pull-ups, and fine-tune his footwork a bit. Lonzoís form was also pretty bad (different mechanical issues) coming out of UCLA. Although Lonzoís first few seasons were rough shooting the ball, heís shooting 36.6 percent from 3 this season on six attempts per game. So, form can be fixed.

    The percentages for LaMelo are bad, but a good deal of that is shot selection ó way too many off the bounce, early shot clock. My theory is that if you can get a coach to rein him in a bit on the shots he takes and have him play off the ball in catch-and-shoot situations a little, the percentages could go up a bit. A few tweaks to the form, and it could go up a bit more. Now, this is all theoretical, but I think the shot is fixable and the percentages would have looked a bit better with more (perimeter) talent around him.

    LaMelo went 7-of-18 on no dribble catch-and-shoot jumpers (21 points, 58.3 adjusted field goal percentage), so there is some actual evidence pointing to the idea that having him off the ball a bit more and allowing shots to be created for him. Another reason to buy the shot is he has a soft touch around the basket.

    Lonzo and LaMelo are definitely different. LaMelo is a much better pick-and-roll operator than Lonzo was at the same stage, which suits the halfcourt game a lot better. I also think LaMeloís vision in the halfcourt is way better ó like, Luka Doncic-level in terms of the passes he sees and gets through and looks he can create before they are there. On the other hand, Lonzo was a more cerebral player in a team concept on offense, making quick decisions as a swing passer and kicking it up in transition.

    Defensively, LaMelo has shown some flashes rotating off ball and has the potential to be a solid on-ball defender with quick feet and hips and quick and active hands, though his frame is slightly worrisome. Lonzo was a much better team defender rotating and playing safety for the defense. If you want to buy some stock in defense, here is an easy sell: it doesnít make sense that someone with such a gifted offensive IQ and the ability to see things before they happen on offense would stay a bad defender. The IQ should be able to translate on defense, at least to a certain extent, and LaMelo could develop into a pretty solid team defender. Iíd have whoever coaches him really focus on that, because itís clear he has a special understanding of the game.
    https://theathletic.com/1615471/2020.../?redirected=1

  5. #1430
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    The Knicks if anything out of the point guards in this draft, they would have to be stupid to pass on LaMelo Ball. Why? Out of all the PGs here in this relatively weak draft, the one with the highest ceiling/highest projection is LaMelo. The only reason why all y'all are down on him is because of the fact that he is a Ball. If he weren't a Ball, y'all would be singing his praises right now. Tell me I'm wrong. LaMelo is not his brother Lonzo. He ain't his father either. LaMelo is his own person but y'all hold that against him never mind the fact that he's ballin in spite of his family. Distanced himself to the point that he played in Australia against fully grown men in the NBL and won the Rookie of the Year award over there in Australia playing for the Hawks. Did y'all see Lonzo or Lavar in Australia with him? Not to mention his court vision and IQ is better than his brother Lonzo especially when Lonzo was coming out of UCLA. Plus LaMelo is a better passer than his brother but he's more of a score first PG but he does get his teammates involved nonetheless. Hell, Melo doesn't even want to be a part of BBB either.

  6. #1431
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    Daymean Dotson is an UFA at the end of this season. He's not re-signing with the Knicks. Forget about that.

    Also Kevin Knox's stock has never been lower. Compare his rookie to sophomore year. It's disturbing. He started 57 games his rookie season vs just 4 games this season. His minutes have been cut from 28.8 min/game to 18.3 min/game. Roughly 10 less min/game. His numbers across the board are down but disturbingly his ppg have been reduced to less than half his average production. Also his FT% is nearly 10% less. He's slightly above RJ Barrett's FT% which is not too good for a guy who isn't Shaq.

    We know, Dennis Smith Jr is demanding a trade and pretty much has no interest to play for the Knicks. You couldn't get a bag of balls for this guy.

    Mitchell Robinson has been coming along. His minutes have increased by 2 min/game but he's started 12 less game this season. His scoring is up from rookie year 7.3 ppg to sophomore 9.2 ppg. But his FT% is atrocious. In the last 10 games, his FT% is 39%. It's barely over 51% for the season. Ask Detroit who gave away Andre Drummond for NOTHING, how valuable is a big man who is only skilled to do put backs, rebound, and block?

    Frank Ntilikina actually has value. Sure the offensive numbers are not there. Still, teams like the Spurs have inquired. He doesn't need the ball to make an impact defensively. He knows how to make the extra pass. He's only 21 and he's definitely developing at an accelerated rate but not fast enough to show up in the fantasy stats.

    Pretty Much, RJ Barrett is going nowhere.

  7. #1432
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    I can so see LaMelo and LaVar pulling an Eli Manning and only want to get drafted here. I'm just not sure Ball is a franchise level PG. He might just be a Rondo/Rubio like some mentioned.

  8. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    Yea we'd probably have to move up 8-10 spots. but I think Knox, Clippers pick + CHA 2nd rounder could do it
    wait to move up in a draft that scouts are saying 1-20 are about equal and no Zion or Ja in this draft we want to now trade our #9 pick only two years back and a valuable 2nd round pick and the Clips pick?

    And why is it always Knox and not Frank included? Are we getting a SF with the picks or the instructions was PG and SG?

    My point without this going into a Frank thing is Frank has a less shot of being here than Knox in a two year period so why you so quick on Knox but always wanting to keep Frank?

    It would be one hello of a trade if Knox came back next season in year 3 much improved.

    And I always read about our future with Knox and RJ and Mitch, even today, Newsday's article no mention of Frank in the future......and even Miller talked about how Knox is developing, not a word about Frank.

    So I think the Knicks today, not sure about tomorrow have more hope for Knox than Frank tbh......

  9. #1434
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    Quote Originally Posted by smood999 View Post
    I read it wrong...what you suggested is about right.

    I forgot that the Clippers pick is what they'd be moving up from.
    so you would give up the Clips pick, a 2nd and Dotson or Knox to move up just out of the lottery?

    I'd bet the way I'm reading this draft there isn't a Knox in the mid to late lottery and we could get another pick for Just Knox.

    Man if I'm a GM I'm taking the Clips, the early 2nd with no cap hit, and Knox for my non lottery pick for sure.

  10. #1435
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    wait to move up in a draft that scouts are saying 1-20 are about equal and no Zion or Ja in this draft we want to now trade our #9 pick only two years back and a valuable 2nd round pick and the Clips pick?

    And why is it always Knox and not Frank included?
    Are we getting a SF with the picks or the instructions was PG and SG?

    My point without this going into a Frank thing is Frank has a less shot of being here than Knox in a two year period so why you so quick on Knox but always wanting to keep Frank?

    It would be one hello of a trade if Knox came back next season in year 3 much improved.

    And I always read about our future with Knox and RJ and Mitch, even today, Newsday's article no mention of Frank in the future......and even Miller talked about how Knox is developing, not a word about Frank.

    So I think the Knicks today, not sure about tomorrow have more hope for Knox than Frank tbh......
    if you can get Nesmith sure why not. 2 good players is better than 3 bad ones.

    Because Knox sucks on both ends and there are FA options at SF/PF. I think Frank will be good so why would I want to trade him? why is that even a question? can you just accept the fact that I think Frank will be a good piece?.

  11. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Detfink View Post
    Daymean Dotson is an UFA at the end of this season. He's not re-signing with the Knicks. Forget about that.

    Also Kevin Knox's stock has never been lower. Compare his rookie to sophomore year. It's disturbing. He started 57 games his rookie season vs just 4 games this season. His minutes have been cut from 28.8 min/game to 18.3 min/game. Roughly 10 less min/game. His numbers across the board are down but disturbingly his ppg have been reduced to less than half his average production. Also his FT% is nearly 10% less. He's slightly above RJ Barrett's FT% which is not too good for a guy who isn't Shaq.

    We know, Dennis Smith Jr is demanding a trade and pretty much has no interest to play for the Knicks. You couldn't get a bag of balls for this guy.

    Mitchell Robinson has been coming along. His minutes have increased by 2 min/game but he's started 12 less game this season. His scoring is up from rookie year 7.3 ppg to sophomore 9.2 ppg. But his FT% is atrocious. In the last 10 games, his FT% is 39%. It's barely over 51% for the season. Ask Detroit who gave away Andre Drummond for NOTHING, how valuable is a big man who is only skilled to do put backs, rebound, and block?

    Frank Ntilikina actually has value. Sure the offensive numbers are not there. Still, teams like the Spurs have inquired. He doesn't need the ball to make an impact defensively. He knows how to make the extra pass. He's only 21 and he's definitely developing at an accelerated rate but not fast enough to show up in the fantasy stats.

    Pretty Much, RJ Barrett is going nowhere.
    only if the knicks waive him........do you ever read replies to your posts, this is now the 3rd time you've said this and I've replied? How about looking it up?

    Once again, Knicks have a QO for 2.03mil on Dotson next year........how do you not keep him for 2 mil?

    that is only a mil on the cap less the ghost..........

  12. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    if you can get Nesmith sure why not. 2 good players is better than 3 bad ones.

    Because Knox sucks on both ends and there are FA options at SF/PF. I think Frank will be good so why would I want to trade him? why is that even a question? can you just accept the fact that I think Frank will be a good piece?.

    Not sure how you can't accept the Knicks will be more likely to NOT than to pick up his 8.5 after next season. But you have hope and he's still here and that would be great for the Knicks if he lived up to it......

    But why not read and tell me who the Knicks, not you would move first?

  13. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Detfink View Post
    Daymean Dotson is an UFA at the end of this season. He's not re-signing with the Knicks. Forget about that.

    Also Kevin Knox's stock has never been lower. Compare his rookie to sophomore year. It's disturbing. He started 57 games his rookie season vs just 4 games this season. His minutes have been cut from 28.8 min/game to 18.3 min/game. Roughly 10 less min/game. His numbers across the board are down but disturbingly his ppg have been reduced to less than half his average production. Also his FT% is nearly 10% less. He's slightly above RJ Barrett's FT% which is not too good for a guy who isn't Shaq.

    We know, Dennis Smith Jr is demanding a trade and pretty much has no interest to play for the Knicks. You couldn't get a bag of balls for this guy.

    Mitchell Robinson has been coming along. His minutes have increased by 2 min/game but he's started 12 less game this season. His scoring is up from rookie year 7.3 ppg to sophomore 9.2 ppg. But his FT% is atrocious. In the last 10 games, his FT% is 39%. It's barely over 51% for the season. Ask Detroit who gave away Andre Drummond for NOTHING, how valuable is a big man who is only skilled to do put backs, rebound, and block?

    Frank Ntilikina actually has value. Sure the offensive numbers are not there. Still, teams like the Spurs have inquired. He doesn't need the ball to make an impact defensively. He knows how to make the extra pass. He's only 21 and he's definitely developing at an accelerated rate but not fast enough to show up in the fantasy stats.

    Pretty Much, RJ Barrett is going nowhere.
    This is funny to me, every player gets inquired, the question is what was the offer coming back? Sure wasn't a first, in my opinion.

    Actually Frank's and Knox' and DSJ value are all at an all time low.......let's be real.

  14. #1439
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    Also teams inquired about DSJ but you said he has value less than a bag of balls..........see the logic here?

  15. #1440
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    Not sure how you can't accept the Knicks will be more likely to NOT than to pick up his 8.5 after next season. But you have hope and he's still here and that would be great for the Knicks if he lived up to it......

    But why not read and tell me who the Knicks, not you would move first?
    yes Frank is gone you win... listen if you keep repeating it every year eventually you'll be right...lol.

    You want to derail everything into a Frank thread... we get it, you dont like him, he's gone.. he's vet min or overseas... we get it... just agree to disagree and don't derail.

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