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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGamer81 View Post
    The last I had heard, Altuve had released a statement. I didn't know FanFest was going on; it was Saturday and I have a life.

    You're angry at "the press" for not hounding all of the Astros players. Well, they actually *are* asking them questions. As to why you care what Verlander thinks, I have no idea (and neither do you, in all likelihood) because he's a pitcher. Same with Cole, who is a pitcher and would have never worn the buzzer or benefited from the sign stealing.

    There is no witch hunt. Beltran was guilty.
    I care because they were in the locker room and clearly would have known whats going on

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posada20 View Post
    why would anyone ask Cole or Verlander anything about the scandal when Manfred gave all players immunity . And yes Beltran is guilty since he was one of the masterminds behind it all
    Mastermind, its a sign stealing idea, been going on for 100 years.
    Did Cora and the RedSox not steal signs last year when they sucked?
    Its the most overated thing in the world.
    Beltran was a player in 17 he should get immunity like the other players.
    He wasnt getting suspended but his name was leaked to screw the Mets, and they caved to the NY media hacks that cover the team

  3. #363
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    So Alex Cora is out of the question?


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandit999 View Post
    Mastermind, its a sign stealing idea, been going on for 100 years.
    Did Cora and the RedSox not steal signs last year when they sucked?
    Its the most overated thing in the world.
    Beltran was a player in 17 he should get immunity like the other players.
    He wasnt getting suspended but his name was leaked to screw the Mets, and they caved to the NY media hacks that cover the team
    Beltran was the only player punished by them leaking his name.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyndave View Post
    Why not Meulens ? He was supposedly the second choice for the Yankees ? He has more experience than Rojas. How come no one has mentioned trying to lure Bochy out of retirement?
    Muelens seems like a good candidate as well.

    My point is if you're getting progressive in your approach to analytics you should make sure that your new manager embraces it as well. Terry, Baker, Bochy, even Buck seem less likely to do this and for me, having all aspects of the organization in sync is more important at this time than having some salty leader to stabilize the team.

    It's not like the players had any allegiance or lengthy exposure to Beltran and the clubhouse is now in disarray. What's important is that the new person get up to speed quickly, hit the ground running, get thoroughly familiar with the personnel and play .800 ball in April.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Futurist View Post
    Muelens seems like a good candidate as well.

    My point is if you're getting progressive in your approach to analytics you should make sure that your new manager embraces it as well. Terry, Baker, Bochy, even Buck seem less likely to do this and for me, having all aspects of the organization in sync is more important at this time than having some salty leader to stabilize the team.

    It's not like the players had any allegiance or lengthy exposure to Beltran and the clubhouse is now in disarray. What's important is that the new person get up to speed quickly, hit the ground running, get thoroughly familiar with the personnel and play .800 ball in April.
    I am not sure that analytics is the be all and end all. I understand some of its uses but not all. If you have the talent and play fundamental baseball you will win. If your closer can close out games you will be successful, withoiut analytics. I am sure that Mariano did not depend on analytics when throwing his virtually unhittable cutter. DeGrom doesn't need analytics to win 2 CY Young awards. Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Henry Aaron etc. did not need analytics .

    A good manager has to know how to use his bullpen properly, getting all his 26 players involved and have some luck. Baker, Buck , Bochy and Scocsia would be excellent choices for our team.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyndave View Post
    I am not sure that analytics is the be all and end all. I understand some of its uses but not all. If you have the talent and play fundamental baseball you will win. If your closer can close out games you will be successful, withoiut analytics. I am sure that Mariano did not depend on analytics when throwing his virtually unhittable cutter. DeGrom doesn't need analytics to win 2 CY Young awards. Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Henry Aaron etc. did not need analytics .

    A good manager has to know how to use his bullpen properly, getting all his 26 players involved and have some luck. Baker, Buck , Bochy and Scocsia would be excellent choices for our team.
    I didn't say analytics is everything. I said it makes sense to have your manager, your staff, your FO and your analytics people in sync. They seem to be trying to become more progressive with a stronger analytics staff. Some of the old school managers mentioned, while perfectly capable of winning for us, don't seem like they'd embrace that approach. Sure, a good manager needs to do all the things you mentioned. But in 2020 when the FO hands you a pre-game packet that contains potentially game-changing revelations, he also is expected to add that to his formidable old school experience.

    How do you know how much deGrom relied on data to prep for a lineup, or figure out if his mechanics were off, or if he should use a certain pitch more or less? I've read dozens of stories in recent years about a pitcher being shown data that reveals why a simple shift in emphasis, for instance, from a two-seamer to a four-seamer, resurrects a career.

    I don't think Mantle did a lick of studying and obviously did okay, but Ted Williams would have been all over analytics. Did you ever see the charts he made for his book The Science of Hittling? That is literally analytics. Any "student of the game" from that era would likely be a fan of present day analytics. Williams would have devoured every data point available. Same goes for Gwynn. Some guys don't want to think, others want to be all over it.
    Last edited by The Futurist; 01-19-2020 at 06:39 PM.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Futurist View Post
    I didn't say analytics is everything. I said it makes sense to have your manager, your staff, your FO and your analytics people in sync. They seem to be trying to become more progressive with a stronger analytics staff. Some of the old school managers mentioned, while perfectly capable of winning for us, don't seem like they'd embrace that approach. Sure, a good manager needs to do all the things you mentioned. But in 2020 when the FO hands you a pre-game packet that contains potentially game-changing revelations, he also is expected to add that to his formidable old school experience.

    How do you know how much deGrom relied on data to prep for a lineup, or figure out if his mechanics were off, or if he should use a certain pitch more or less? I've read dozens of stories in recent years about a pitcher being shown data that reveals why a simple shift in emphasis, for instance, from a two-seamer to a four-seamer, resurrects a career.

    I don't think Mantle did a lick of studying and obviously did okay, but Ted Williams would have been all over analytics. Did you ever see the charts he made for his book The Science of Hittling? That is literally analytics. Any "student of the game" from that era would likely be a fan of present day analytics. Williams would have devoured every data point available. Same goes for Gwynn. Some guys don't want to think, others want to be all over it.
    Why are you so sure that Buck, Baker, Bochy or Scocsia would not adopt soime form of analytics? Have you read or heard that they would not ? I heard Giradi on an interview say he is all for analytics. What I know what they wouldn't do is have Brodie or Jeff dictate a lineup to them or tell them who to pitch in relief.

    A team will win analytics or no analytics if they have the players, the players perform and the team plays fundamentally sound baseball.

  9. #369
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    I never said those guys were not capable of adopting some form of analytics. I said, based on what I know of them, they did not seem like the type to "embrace" it.

    A quick search found this on Dusty:
    "It was widely reported in both Cincinnati and Washington that Baker was at best lukewarm regarding the takeover of MLB by analytics-driven, non-playing general managers who insisted on having- input on every decision from pitching matchups to batting orders."

    Here's Heyman on Scioscia and the 2020 Phils job: “I’ve also heard Mike Scioscia is very interested in this job, not a shocker. He did step away from the Angels, was not going to be retained there. They went towards analytics, away from old school."

    I never mentioned Girardi, in part because he's off the table and in part because he's know to be into analytics. You're right that the old-timers, especially guys like Bochy and Sciosia who have won titles, would be less likely to let someone hand them a lineup or dictate pitching changes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but if the lineups and changes were driven by analytics, then it would be a problem. It would confirm that they were not a good fit for a team (and league) that is developing more and more resources into analytics. I also have a lot of heart for the old school guys and their acquired knowledge, but to outright discount the other side of the game, as cold as it seems, would be foolish.

  10. #370
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    Willy Mays analytics.
    You guys may remember the Ralph Kiner story about Willy Mays. When Willy was asked to explain how he played so well. He said, They throw the ball I hit it, they hit the ball I catch it, I catch the ball, I throw it.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyndave View Post
    Why are you so sure that Buck, Baker, Bochy or Scocsia would not adopt soime form of analytics? Have you read or heard that they would not ? I heard Giradi on an interview say he is all for analytics. What I know what they wouldn't do is have Brodie or Jeff dictate a lineup to them or tell them who to pitch in relief.

    A team will win analytics or no analytics if they have the players, the players perform and the team plays fundamentally sound baseball.
    They haven’t already, and as the saying goes, “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.”


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymation View Post
    They haven’t already, and as the saying goes, “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.”
    How can you prove that ,"you can't teach an old dog new tricks". ? I am sure that any of the 4 that I mentioned, given the opportunity to manage the Mets, would certainly adopt some form of analytics, it just makes sense. They wouldn't , based on their previous success, want to be micro-managed, but either one of the 4 would be successful here in NY.

    Analytics goes just so far and I understand the value of it, as I am sure the 4 also do, but you need talent, the ability to play fundamental baseball, the ability to manage a bullpen and have a closer who can close games out and not blow a plethora of games. I doubt the great Mariano Rivera did not need analytics .,
    Last edited by Brooklyndave; 01-20-2020 at 06:21 AM.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Futurist View Post
    I never said those guys were not capable of adopting some form of analytics. I said, based on what I know of them, they did not seem like the type to "embrace" it.

    A quick search found this on Dusty:
    "It was widely reported in both Cincinnati and Washington that Baker was at best lukewarm regarding the takeover of MLB by analytics-driven, non-playing general managers who insisted on having- input on every decision from pitching matchups to batting orders."

    Here's Heyman on Scioscia and the 2020 Phils job: “I’ve also heard Mike Scioscia is very interested in this job, not a shocker. He did step away from the Angels, was not going to be retained there. They went towards analytics, away from old school."

    I never mentioned Girardi, in part because he's off the table and in part because he's know to be into analytics. You're right that the old-timers, especially guys like Bochy and Sciosia who have won titles, would be less likely to let someone hand them a lineup or dictate pitching changes. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but if the lineups and changes were driven by analytics, then it would be a problem. It would confirm that they were not a good fit for a team (and league) that is developing more and more resources into analytics. I also have a lot of heart for the old school guys and their acquired knowledge, but to outright discount the other side of the game, as cold as it seems, would be foolish.
    Are you willing to gamble on Luis Rojas to manage the Mets?. Yes Rojas managed in the Mets farm system for several years , the last at Binghampton in 2018. And yes he won 2 championships in the Dominican Winter League but he has never done anything in the major leagues, save for being a quality control coach last year, whatever that means, nor if I am not mistaken he never played in the big leagues. .

    Look, Rojas could become the next John McGraw, but he could also become a failure and I don't think that
    the Mets should take that risk now. At least Perez has major league experience which bodes well.

    I am sure you can argue the case for Rojas with citing examples of Rocco Baldelli, Aaron Boone, Kevin Cash, Alex Cora, all first time managers, but all of them played in the major leagues at one time.

    The biggest mistake was hiring Beltran and not Giradi who really wanted the job and this could haunt them for awhile. Brodie's ego and unwilling to share the spotlight or even give it up with Giradi could be the Mets Waterloo !!!

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyndave View Post
    How can you prove that ,"you can't teach an old dog new tricks". ? I am sure that any of the 4 that I mentioned, given the opportunity to manage the Mets, would certainly adopt some form of analytics, it just makes sense. They wouldn't , based on their previous success, want to be micro-managed, but either one of the 4 would be successful here in NY.

    Analytics goes just so far and I understand the value of it, as I am sure the 4 also do, but you need talent, the ability to play fundamental baseball, the ability to manage a bullpen and have a closer who can close games out and not blow a plethora of games. I doubt the great Mariano Rivera did not need analytics .,
    I am sure Mariano used whatever information he could to get out hitters. The best hitters are scouting the opposing teams pitching staff. Same with pitchers facing hitters. You don't get that good on just talent alone. Using Mariano isn't entirely fair either. The best players are the best players for a reason. Everyone else has to be used in their most optimal spot. That's what the analytics are for. Those things allow a team to limit situations where a player is at a disadvantage. Thats why you see SP only getting two times through an order, that's why there are so many platoons, that's why there are so many bullpen changes.

    Its a chess match. Fans can complain all they want but statistical probabilities are always going to take precedence over gut instincts. Its interesting that people take such issue with it in baseball but when it comes to their occupation or life, they're usually trying to minimize risk and use as much information as they can to do so.

    The only difference is we don't have a binder pr tablet giving us every probable outcome and its % of success/failure.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-20-2020 at 10:04 AM.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I am sure Mariano used whatever information he could to get out hitters. The best hitters are scouting the opposing teams pitching staff. Same with pitchers facing hitters. You don't get that good on just talent alone. Using Mariano isn't entirely fair either. The best players are the best players for a reason. Everyone else has to be used in their most optimal spot. That's what the analytics are for. Those things allow a team to limit situations where a player is at a disadvantage. Thats why you see SP only getting two times through an order, that's why there are so many platoons, that's why there are so many bullpen changes.

    Its a chess match. Fans can complain all they want but statistical probabilities are always going to take precedence over gut instincts. Its interesting that people take such issue with it in baseball but when it comes to their occupation or life, they're usually trying to minimize risk and use as much information as they can to do so.

    The only difference is we don't have a binder pr tablet giving us every probable outcome and its % of success/failure.
    You're sure Mariano used whatever information he could to get out hitters.

    And therein lies the problem. You know why? Because Mariano threw a cutter. He knew he he was going to throw a cutter. The batter knew he was going to throw a cutter. The catcher knew he was going to throw a cutter. The umpire knew he was going to throw a cutter. The media knew he was going to throw a cutter. The 50,000+ sitting in the stands knew he was going to throw a cutter.

    And the batters still couldn't hit him.

    Baseball isn't a chess match. But to your point it's become one. It's become one with these stupid one batter loogies that thankfully will no longer be allowed.

    Taking a step back now from my contentious tone and apologizing the same time, we don't always know what we see, do we? If we learned nothing from this latest cheating scandal, it's that we don't really know what we're seeing. Did we know when we were throwing all those accolades at Altuve that we was wearing a buzzer? Did we know that he knew what pitches were coming his way?

    No. When Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire were teeing off with record home runs during the 1998 season, did we know they souped up on performance enhancement drugs? No. But yet you're confident that advanced analytics will tell us what we can't see.

    I continue to have my doubts.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

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