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  1. #61
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  2. #62
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    It's a great view from the Lamar Jackson hype train.

  3. #63
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    Ravens probably watched this before the game:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmMyzwmkT4

    Julian Edelman posted cringe.

  4. #64
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    Pats really put themselves behind the 8ball early. You canít spot a team 17 points - particularly jumping offsides to give them the opportunity to turn a FG into a TD. The late offensive adjustments helped exaggerate that with the Patsí defense getting gassed the way BALís did later in the game.

    Schematically, I think what BAL did a great job of was targeting the ďweakĒ link of the Pats defense. Their LBs - elite. CBs - elite. Safeties - elite. Interior DL - not bad but not great. Lawrence Guy is a good defensive tackle. Danny Shelton is an ok run stuffer. Adam Butler is a very good sub rusher but still growing into a 3 down guy. Normally, the Pats are able to compensate for that with amazing LB play thatís aggressive and downhill. But BAL with all of their motions and misdirection (oh and that Lamar Jackson guy too) was able to neutralize that LB play. Especially early on, NEís LBs were standing still waiting to see what Lamar Jackson did instead of filling gaps. That put the pressure on the DL to stand their ground at the LOS themselves and they simply werenít capable. As the game went on I thought NE did a better job of playing their gaps and not over-worrying about Lamar and that allowed them to crawl back into the game, but heís an MVP candidate so heís still gonna make his plays and they didnít leave themselves room for that with the terrible start (the fumble recovery for a TD on what looked destined to be a TD drove of their own for the lead obviously contributed to that as well).

    So I think going forward BAL exposed a potential weakness in NEís defense. If you can isolate NEís DL and force them to control the LOS without relying on the LBs to over compensate then they become very beatable in the run game. The good news as a Pats fan is that I think BAL is uniquely positioned to do that. I think that the threat of Lamar keeping the ball and their unique formations really frazzled the LBs.

    Looking at their schedule ahead DAL really is the team that scares me most to take those offensive concepts BAL used and apply them. They have the strong OL, the beast RB and the mobile QB. PHI and KC could do it for sure but I donít think their running games are as strong to really apply the pressure. KC could maybe recreate some of it with Hill lined up in the backfield to cause confusion.

    Against more traditional formations and run games I think it will be tough to isolate the DL the way BAL did tonight though. And if the LBs can play aggressively downhill then I think NE can effectively stop running games to out the game in the QBís hands against their secondary, who not too many receiving groups will consistently get separation.

    So Iím sure the reaction will be ďOMG see the Pats defense is actually badĒ and I think that would be a big exaggeration obviously. Theyíre still running out 9 out of 11 guys who are great or elite at their position. But those 2 other guys are the DL players so if you can find a way to really isolate those guy thereís room for success because thereís really nothing you can do when someone ISOLATES your weakness. Every team has them somewhere so you compensate for that in other ways but if a team can scheme you out of being able to do that and force you to rely on those weaker players youíre screwed.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  5. #65
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    And then there was one.

    My guess is the 49ers lose at least one of the next 4 games ... Seattle, Green Bay, then these Ravens. That's a tough run. Then, if that wasn't enough, the other 1 loss team is next in the Saints.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    So Iím sure the reaction will be ďOMG see the Pats defense is actually badĒ and I think that would be a big exaggeration obviously. Theyíre still running out 9 out of 11 guys who are great or elite at their position. But those 2 other guys are the DL players so if you can find a way to really isolate those guy thereís room for success because thereís really nothing you can do when someone ISOLATES your weakness.
    First, kudos on a well thought-out analysis. Lots I agree with and thus have no interest in commenting on, LOL.

    Second, I agree we all tend to exaggerate. Before yesterday, the exaggeration was on the pro-Patriots side, comparing their defense to truly great defenses of the past, when the Patriots had been benefiting from an extremely easy schedule against inept offenses. Truth probably is that the Patriots have a very good defense, but for 2019 and against their schedule, not in any kind of historical sense, regardless of what the numbers say. This defense has nothing like the personnel of the 2013 Seahawks, the late 90s/early 2000s Bucs, late 2000s Steelers, 2000 Ravens, etc. Like the Dynasty #1 defense, it's mostly modular parts whose main strength is the flexibility to let BB 'game plan' for that week's opponent.

    Third, I agree that this doesn't mean much in the big picture. It's like last year's big loss to Tennessee. It will be a curiosity. Eight months from now, Brady will likely be able to make a little trophy with the score on it and present it to an ex-Patriots teammate who is now on the Ravens after having won another Super Bowl. The Patriots schedule the rest of the way is tougher, but not much, teams like the Eagles, Cowboys, and Chiefs, while above average, have all proven eminently beatable by others.

    Soft schedules have been a key to Dynasty #2: In the three years the Patriots have won the Super Bowl since 2014, twice they have played (according to Sagarin) the softest schedule in the entire league and the other time the #23 schedule. The formula is a good one: soft schedule ---> great record ---> playoffs bye, divisional game in Foxboro ---> AFC title game home or road where anything can happen ---> SB, where anything can happen.
    Last edited by StephenR897; 11-04-2019 at 09:09 AM.

  7. #67
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    As much as I hate hot takes, this is pretty much what I saw coming. The Pats have been playing so much garbage that they don't remember what it's like to play a team that they can't beat just from a fumble/pick-six.

    The Pats are a good team, and always will be with BB/Brady, but they're not 10 PPGA good or 7-0 good this season. If they'd faced a couple decent teams before this they'd have already gotten this wakeup call. The Ravens are good for the AFC, but they're not 37 points against an elite defense good. The Pats defense probably had an off day but the only test they've had was a mediocre Steelers team that was working towards a new identity.

    BuT mUh 60% cOmPlEtion

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    And then there was one.

    My guess is the 49ers lose at least one of the next 4 games ... Seattle, Green Bay, then these Ravens. That's a tough run. Then, if that wasn't enough, the other 1 loss team is next in the Saints.
    **** man I hope they stay undefeated until our week 13 matchup. Let's down both undefeated teams in M&T Bank!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    As much as I hate hot takes, this is pretty much what I saw coming. The Pats have been playing so much garbage that they don't remember what it's like to play a team that they can't beat just from a fumble/pick-six.

    The Pats are a good team, and always will be with BB/Brady, but they're not 10 PPGA good or 7-0 good this season. If they'd faced a couple decent teams before this they'd have already gotten this wakeup call. The Ravens are good for the AFC, but they're not 37 points against an elite defense good. The Pats defense probably had an off day but the only test they've had was a mediocre Steelers team that was working towards a new identity.
    I agree with this.

  10. #70
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    Look what happens when the Patriots actually play someone of substance! Easy to win when you are playing the Jets twice, Miami, Washington, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and the Giants!
    Eichel Tower

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    As much as I hate hot takes, this is pretty much what I saw coming. The Pats have been playing so much garbage that they don't remember what it's like to play a team that they can't beat just from a fumble/pick-six.

    The Pats are a good team, and always will be with BB/Brady, but they're not 10 PPGA good or 7-0 good this season. If they'd faced a couple decent teams before this they'd have already gotten this wakeup call. The Ravens are good for the AFC, but they're not 37 points against an elite defense good. The Pats defense probably had an off day but the only test they've had was a mediocre Steelers team that was working towards a new identity.
    I think it was much more BAL specific than youíre making it out to be. I think they were uniquely able to isolate the one area of NEís defense that isnít elite. I think it was much more than quality of opponent.

    Letís just take another good offense in New Orleans for example. Letís say NE played them. I donít think youíd see what you saw yesterday even though itís a great opponent because they just wouldnít be able to attack the weakness the way BAL did.

    If you attack NEís secondary I donít think youíll have consistent success. If their LBs can attack the running game I donít think youíll have consistent success their either. But if you isolate the DL I think you can have success or even dominate them. But itís very difficult to isolate the DL because that really takes a unique threat like Jackson to do it. Otherwise the LBs can help out.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I think it was much more BAL specific than youíre making it out to be. I think they were uniquely able to isolate the one area of NEís defense that isnít elite. I think it was much more than quality of opponent.

    Letís just take another good offense in New Orleans for example. Letís say NE played them. I donít think youíd see what you saw yesterday even though itís a great opponent because they just wouldnít be able to attack the weakness the way BAL did.

    If you attack NEís secondary I donít think youíll have consistent success. If their LBs can attack the running game I donít think youíll have consistent success their either. But if you isolate the DL I think you can have success or even dominate them. But itís very difficult to isolate the DL because that really takes a unique threat like Jackson to do it. Otherwise the LBs can help out.
    So are you arguing that NE is as good as they look against trash offenses and only Lamar Jackson can succeed against this elite defensive unit?

    BuT mUh 60% cOmPlEtion

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    So are you arguing that NE is as good as they look against trash offenses and only Lamar Jackson can succeed against this elite defensive unit?
    As in give up like 8 points/game? Lol definitely not. But Iím a more general sense of just posting gawdy numbers and being outstanding? Yes, I do believe that.

    Name any defense in history and they had bad games. And thereís never been a PERFECT unit on any side of the ball. The patriots have a clear weakness/deficiency on the DL. Itís not a group that can control the LOS against a great run game without help. So if you can isolate that youíre gonna have success.

    The point im making though is that itís extremely difficult to isolate that with the talent on the rest of their roster. There probably isnít a better safety group in the NFL than McCourty, Chung and Harmon. If there are, there arenít many. I feel pretty confident saying there isnít a better CB group in the NFL. And with Hightower, Collins, Van Noy, Simon, Roberts, Bentley they probably have a top 3 LB group (DAL and CAR would be my others). So with that much talent itís very difficult to isolate the DL. The LBs by themselves make up a lot of that ground and then the secondary being so dominant only further allows the LBs to devote themselves to helping vs power runs as necessary. Itís complimentary football - strengths compensate for weaknesses.

    What I saw BAL dO was neutralize how well the LBs covered for the DL vs the power run. And I think Lamar was the reason for that because of how the LBs got caught watching him. They were a step slow filling gaps and against a great OL thatís a killer.

    I donít think Lamar is the only person who can do that. In this thread I listed Dak/Zeke in DAL as a combo that can do some of those same principles. I also cited KC as able to do it with the skill players and creativity they have. I think the key to beating NE will be to create hesitation in those LBs defending the run because the talent level otherwise on the NE defense is just so exceptional. And that exceptional skill set elsewhere makes it hard to do that because it gives NE the ability to overcompensate and not be compromised. I think it takes a unique scheme and skill set of players that few teams have to be able to challenge in that way specifically.

    So your post was talking about just general ďqualityĒ of opponent. I think itís much deeper than just quality - itís how that that quality is achieved. Basically Iím saying itís more scheme based and matchups focused than just simply saying ďoh they had to get used to playing a better teamĒ. I think what makes football so much more interesting than other sports is how important matchup are. The game is much more complex so there are schematic ways that ďlesser teamsĒ can success vs ďbetter teamsĒ.

    Let me put it another way... would people say that BAL is a better offense than the 07 Pats? No, but having watched that team I donít think theyíd be able to do what BAL did to NE last night. Matchup wise, I think this NE Defense would be able to do to that team what others that season did. Better team than BAL on paper but I still think NE would have an easier time defending, for example.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    As in give up like 8 points/game? Lol definitely not. But Iím a more general sense of just posting gawdy numbers and being outstanding? Yes, I do believe that.

    Name any defense in history and they had bad games. And thereís never been a PERFECT unit on any side of the ball. The patriots have a clear weakness/deficiency on the DL. Itís not a group that can control the LOS against a great run game without help. So if you can isolate that youíre gonna have success.

    The point im making though is that itís extremely difficult to isolate that with the talent on the rest of their roster. There probably isnít a better safety group in the NFL than McCourty, Chung and Harmon. If there are, there arenít many. I feel pretty confident saying there isnít a better CB group in the NFL. And with Hightower, Collins, Van Noy, Simon, Roberts, Bentley they probably have a top 3 LB group (DAL and CAR would be my others). So with that much talent itís very difficult to isolate the DL. The LBs by themselves make up a lot of that ground and then the secondary being so dominant only further allows the LBs to devote themselves to helping vs power runs as necessary. Itís complimentary football - strengths compensate for weaknesses.

    What I saw BAL dO was neutralize how well the LBs covered for the DL vs the power run. And I think Lamar was the reason for that because of how the LBs got caught watching him. They were a step slow filling gaps and against a great OL thatís a killer.

    I donít think Lamar is the only person who can do that. In this thread I listed Dak/Zeke in DAL as a combo that can do some of those same principles. I also cited KC as able to do it with the skill players and creativity they have. I think the key to beating NE will be to create hesitation in those LBs defending the run because the talent level otherwise on the NE defense is just so exceptional. And that exceptional skill set elsewhere makes it hard to do that because it gives NE the ability to overcompensate and not be compromised. I think it takes a unique scheme and skill set of players that few teams have to be able to challenge in that way specifically.

    So your post was talking about just general ďqualityĒ of opponent. I think itís much deeper than just quality - itís how that that quality is achieved. Basically Iím saying itís more scheme based and matchups focused than just simply saying ďoh they had to get used to playing a better teamĒ. I think what makes football so much more interesting than other sports is how important matchup are. The game is much more complex so there are schematic ways that ďlesser teamsĒ can success vs ďbetter teamsĒ.

    Let me put it another way... would people say that BAL is a better offense than the 07 Pats? No, but having watched that team I donít think theyíd be able to do what BAL did to NE last night. Matchup wise, I think this NE Defense would be able to do to that team what others that season did. Better team than BAL on paper but I still think NE would have an easier time defending, for example.
    I guess I could phrase my question better since you sort of answered it with your 10 ppga comment. Prior to this game, the Pats were on an insane record breaking pace for several all time defensive stats that haven't been seen in the modern era (some dated back to almost 100 years ago). Do you believe this defense is in the same league as the 2013 Seahawks or 2015 Broncos? Or so you simply think they're elite in the reference frame of 2019 defenses?

    I can agree that they might be the best defense in the league, but I don't think they're an all time great unit or anything.

    BuT mUh 60% cOmPlEtion

  15. #75
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    Told y'all about Lamar. It's so difficult to slow him down because the defense knows he can gash them at ANY time. And Baltimore's offense is designed to take advantage of the defense over-committing and being so worried about Lamar's legs. Roman has really done an incredible job.
    The Baker has come. Believe the hype.


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