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View Poll Results: Who is better? Harden or Kobe

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  • Kobe

    19 79.17%
  • Harden

    5 20.83%
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Results 31 to 45 of 99
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIMelo=KillaDUO View Post
    I draw the comparison in its entirety. I think skill for skill Harden is better. numbers, harden is better, if we take the playoffs only, than yes Kobe gets the edge. I'm positive if we were to punch the numbers from playoffs and regular season, Harden still edges Kobe statistically.
    So donít you think the guy who plays better when it matters is the better player?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    u say that as if contextualizing a career is a bad thing. it means a ton if it's the playoffs. and no it never fell off to Hardens standards. except those years he was alone
    It is in the sense of ignoring outside influences that help contribute to a players' resume, yeah its dumb just to look at accomplishments without contextualizing. Also Harden's D the past two seasons haven't been bad. He doesn't necessarily improve the overall team defense, but he's not a liability like he has been in years past. Meanwhile from 01-09 Kobe generally hid on the opponents weakest defender and still ranked in the bottom percentile in blow-by %, among other things. You take any of these seasons individually and his impact on the overall team defense is about on par with Harden's past two years.

    Kobe's offensive peak didn't line up with his defensive peak, which makes it harder to determine his best individual season, but regardless, Harden has had a bigger impact on his team's success (largely because of his creation) than Kobe ever had.

  3. #33
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    Kobe actually played defense.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    Don't you mean, "Who is better with Shaq and Pau?"
    Kobe played Shaq's sidekick for his first three championships. He only became the man after Shaq left, but the Lakers weren't good again until Pau arrived.
    Say what you want about Harden's performance in the postseason, but he never played with anyone like Shaq or Pau. There's an argument that Kobe could have adapted in the new era and become a more adept floor general and outside shooter like Harden. But how do we know Harden couldn't be just as successful playing next to the most physically dominant big man ever, or the second-best European big man ever?
    because he struggles in tougher defensive environments, his playoff woes are historically laughable in this kind of comparison and his game has never meshed as well with other stars. kobe brought out the best in his bigs, Pau was actually more productive with kobe than he ever was on his own.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCaintdead17 View Post
    It is in the sense of ignoring outside influences that help contribute to a players' resume, yeah its dumb just to look at accomplishments without contextualizing. Also Harden's D the past two seasons haven't been bad. He doesn't necessarily improve the overall team defense, but he's not a liability like he has been in years past. Meanwhile from 01-09 Kobe generally hid on the opponents weakest defender and still ranked in the bottom percentile in blow-by %, among other things. You take any of these seasons individually and his impact on the overall team defense is about on par with Harden's past two years.

    Kobe's offensive peak didn't line up with his defensive peak, which makes it harder to determine his best individual season, but regardless, Harden has had a bigger impact on his team's success (largely because of his creation) than Kobe ever had.
    hence why contextualizing is more important than disregarding them altogether.

    not being bad is only a triumph for the likes of harden. kobe was a vastly superior defender.

    harden has a bigger impact if you ignore the context of his eras, his defense, the fact that his game dwindles when it matters most and has never been the key to a team that actually won. so even if we pretend that you have a point, it just low hanging fruit so why would anyone care.

    hes simply not in the same realm athletically

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    So donít you think the guy who plays better when it matters is the better player?
    kobe was way more skilled. hes commonly referred to as the games most skilled player, it's why he could actually implement new moves in the off season (like he did with dream) and why his game translated into the post season. harden is far less varied in his offensive attack (the natural limitations of being so heavy in the 3 and drives approach) which makes it easier to gameplan for, it took him until last year to add an in between game with that floater. harden has way too many holes in his game and far too many question marks to be mentioned in this breath. I disagree with ur take that hes firmly entrenched ahead of the likes of Clyde

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiG View Post
    Kobe actually played defense.
    So does Harden. He just doesn't always do it especially well...


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    You mean regular season correct? How does Harden's playoff numbers stack up to Kobe?
    So I was curious about their actual playoff numbers on paper, and they're shockingly even. You could even argue that Harden's are a little better. Here are their career postseason advanced numbers without their names attached:

    Player A: 22.3 PER, 57.9% TS%, .169 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
    Player B: 22.4 PER, 54.1% TS%, .157 WS/48, 4.4 BPM


    Does it matter who's who here? They're damn close. If you look at their basic stats, Kobe has an edge in scoring and Harden has an edge in assists, but Harden also has a little over half the postseason games played that Kobe has, and 43 of Harden's postseason games came as a 6th man playing for the Thunder.

    I realize numbers without context are often pointless, but I also think context without the numbers do a disservice to athletes at times. The narrative of Harden as a playoff choker are generally accurate and well-deserved, as his production drops considerably from the regular season to the playoffs and he's had some pretty epic no-shows in big moments in the playoffs.

    That being said, that narrative fails to recognize something pretty important: Even at Harden's lesser postseason level, he's basically on par statistically with a top 10-15 all-time player who's generally seen as one of the better postseason performers of the last 25 years.

    (Again, though, I'm still not taking Harden in this debate. But I'm pointing out that Kobe and Harden's postseason narratives are a bit overblown.)


  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    kobe was way more skilled. hes commonly referred to as the games most skilled player, it's why he could actually implement new moves in the off season (like he did with dream) and why his game translated into the post season. harden is far less varied in his offensive attack (the natural limitations of being so heavy in the 3 and drives approach) which makes it easier to gameplan for, it took him until last year to add an in between game with that floater. harden has way too many holes in his game and far too many question marks to be mentioned in this breath. I disagree with ur take that hes firmly entrenched ahead of the likes of Clyde
    While you might be on to something here, I also think Harden does things with the basketball Kobe could never do. His stepback is a shot Kobe would never be able to hit at an efficient pace. And Harden is the superior isolation player. Kobe could score in more ways, sure. But Harden has narrowed his offensive skills to those things that emphasize his strengths and to skills that just lead to far more efficient offense. And he's developed enough variation among those skills to make it nearly impossible for opposing teams to defend him one on one.

    Kobe could take and hit tons of difficult mid-range jumpers at a high rateóbut the mid-range jumper is also the least efficient shot in basketball. And Kobe was a mediocre 3-point shooter at best, yet he took a ton of them. So there's something to be said for mastering the things you're good at and that lead to the best possible outcomes offensively rather than being a jack of all trades and being great at things that don't necessarily lead to great offensive possessions.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    So donít you think the guy who plays better when it matters is the better player?
    Absolutely, but I'm not going to disregard what he does between November-April either.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIMelo=KillaDUO View Post
    Absolutely, but I'm not going to disregard what he does between November-April either.
    The playoffs is where it counts and where greatness is ultimately measured.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    While you might be on to something here, I also think Harden does things with the basketball Kobe could never do. His stepback is a shot Kobe would never be able to hit at an efficient pace. And Harden is the superior isolation player. Kobe could score in more ways, sure. But Harden has narrowed his offensive skills to those things that emphasize his strengths and to skills that just lead to far more efficient offense. And he's developed enough variation among those skills to make it nearly impossible for opposing teams to defend him one on one.

    Kobe could take and hit tons of difficult mid-range jumpers at a high rateóbut the mid-range jumper is also the least efficient shot in basketball. And Kobe was a mediocre 3-point shooter at best, yet he took a ton of them. So there's something to be said for mastering the things you're good at and that lead to the best possible outcomes offensively rather than being a jack of all trades and being great at things that don't necessarily lead to great offensive possessions.
    Yep.. Getting away with that step back travel is hard to do..

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakerfan85 View Post
    Yep.. Getting away with that step back travel is hard to do..
    So is rape, but Kobe pulled it off...

  14. #44
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    These advanced stats mean very little, especially if you are comparing different eras. This system benefits those who take many threes.

    Harden has a higher career TS% than LeBron (.609 vs .586). You are comparing a player who shoots 44%, jacks up 13 threes per game, to a player who has shot over 50% in his career 9 seasons and is widely known as one of the most efficient players in this league.

    Below are the number of players who had a TS% higher than .600 in a particular season:

    1990-1991: 16
    2000-2001: 4
    2010-2011: 14
    Last season: 36

    Let me show you Harden vs Kobe vs Wade playoffs stats and you decide for yourself:

    Player A: 22.3 PER, 57.9% TS%, .169 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
    Player B: 22.4 PER, 54.1% TS%, .157 WS/48, 4.4 BPM
    Player C: 22.4 PER, 54.9% TS%, .155 WS/48, 4.8 BPM

    By these metrics, Harden is a better overall player than Kobe and Wade (both in playoffs and regular season)

    Bottom line is, watch the games.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanG View Post
    These advanced stats mean very little, especially if you are comparing different eras. This system benefits those who take many threes.

    Harden has a higher career TS% than LeBron (.609 vs .586). You are comparing a player who shoots 44%, jacks up 13 threes per game, to a player who has shot over 50% in his career 9 seasons and is widely known as one of the most efficient players in this league.

    Below are the number of players who had a TS% higher than .600 in a particular season:

    1990-1991: 16
    2000-2001: 4
    2010-2011: 14
    Last season: 36

    Let me show you Harden vs Kobe vs Wade playoffs stats and you decide for yourself:

    Player A: 22.3 PER, 57.9% TS%, .169 WS/48, 6.4 BPM
    Player B: 22.4 PER, 54.1% TS%, .157 WS/48, 4.4 BPM
    Player C: 22.4 PER, 54.9% TS%, .155 WS/48, 4.8 BPM

    By these metrics, Harden is a better overall player than Kobe and Wade (both in playoffs and regular season)

    Bottom line is, watch the games.
    Harden has been a monster the last 3 years. Heís had four 50 point triple doubles. Things Kobe and Wade simply never did. Harden def has an argument. The ďstat padderĒ Bron has never had a 50 point triple double. Harden is a beast, like it or not. He can do things nobody else can.
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 10-12-2019 at 05:48 AM.

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