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  1. #1246
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    Can anyone here show me a defensive metric that proves Siakam is a great, elite defensive player? Other than their own personal eye test.

    Every single defensive metric I have found so far doesn't have Siakam in the top 10. I know he is a good defender, I just don't understand why it doesn't translate to any metric. I also know our team defense wasn't great last year and a lot of these metrics are reliant on that. So this is where I need help. There has to be some metric that takes that in to account. I simply cant find one, not on defensive rating, drtg and real plus minus are misleading and neither favor Siakam. Any help would be appreciated.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-18-2021 at 12:22 PM.

  2. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Can anyone here show me a defensive metric that proves Siakam is a great, elite defensive player? Other than their own personal eye test.

    Every single defensive metric I have found so far doesn't have Siakam in the top 10. I know he is a good defender, I just don't understand why it doesn't translate to any metric. I also know our team defense wasn't great last year and a lot of these metrics are reliant on that. So this is where I need help. There has to be some metric that takes that in to account. I simply cant find one, not on defensive rating, drtg and real plus minus are misleading and neither favor Siakam. Any help would be appreciated.
    There isn't one. Not free anyway. My background is in machine learning so I can get pretty nit picky about them but in general, defensive raptor on 538 is pretty good. There are some caveats from a mathematical and practical standpoint. For example, how you're coached and the system you play in can greatly affect how that play translates to numbers. An entire defensive system built around one player is going to result in overly inflated numbers. On the math side of things, it's hard to gauge the marginal benefit of one number vs a bigger number. Generally with these things, once you reach a certain threshold there's diminishing returns or there's so much noise you can't reasonably say that one is better than the other. But usually people just goo goo over the bigger numbers and it is wrong. Not to mention the HUGE margin of errors on these things.

    For example if you look at





    the confidence interval is so wide they overlap, there's technically 0 difference between any of the players above. So people saying Danny Green is better than Paul George because he has a higher net rating is wrong. Even people saying that Danny is better than Draymond is wrong even though there seems to be a huge gap between the two when it comes to their net rating. This example is specific to net rating but it applies for other statistics as well.

    But in general, Defensive Raptor isn't terrible for casual use. It's less terrible than the other alternatives anyway.

  3. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    Youíre literally making a direct comparison here. Or is it another one of those things where youíre just saying **** and weíre not supposed to take it seriously and weíre actually supposed to take your next goal post seriously.
    Translation:
    Masai Ujiri should trade Siakam for depth.

  4. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    but you did lol
    If thatís what you want to call that lol. I could have said anybody. Letís bargnani him.

  5. #1250
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    But within the context of that conversation, you're making a direct comparison about their salaries. No one reading that within the context will pick up that you're talking about trading him for depth. Even then it makes no sense. It makes even less sense to say you could have said "Let's Bargnani him" to mean "trading for depth" when the Bargs deal wasn't a depth trade.
    Last edited by ecart; 09-18-2021 at 04:58 PM.

  6. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    There isn't one. Not free anyway. My background is in machine learning so I can get pretty nit picky about them but in general, defensive raptor on 538 is pretty good. There are some caveats from a mathematical and practical standpoint. For example, how you're coached and the system you play in can greatly affect how that play translates to numbers. An entire defensive system built around one player is going to result in overly inflated numbers. On the math side of things, it's hard to gauge the marginal benefit of one number vs a bigger number. Generally with these things, once you reach a certain threshold there's diminishing returns or there's so much noise you can't reasonably say that one is better than the other. But usually people just goo goo over the bigger numbers and it is wrong. Not to mention the HUGE margin of errors on these things.

    For example if you look at





    the confidence interval is so wide they overlap, there's technically 0 difference between any of the players above. So people saying Danny Green is better than Paul George because he has a higher net rating is wrong. Even people saying that Danny is better than Draymond is wrong even though there seems to be a huge gap between the two when it comes to their net rating. This example is specific to net rating but it applies for other statistics as well.

    But in general, Defensive Raptor isn't terrible for casual use. It's less terrible than the other alternatives anyway.
    Thanks for this. I saw this in the NBA forum. Gotta learn how to read it. Are they in order like why is Danny Green atop the list? Maybe itís not order specific and just gotta look at the numbers?

  7. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    If thatís what you want to call that lol. I could have said anybody. Letís bargnani him.
    If that means shopping him, I think we already did that.

    Although I would be interested if the rumours about Memphis making Brooks and Anderson available are true.

  8. #1253
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    Apparently we will allow full capacity but certain caveats (ie they can reduce seating and you get refund).

  9. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    But within the context of that conversation, you're making a direct comparison about their salaries. No one reading that within the context will pick up that you're talking about trading him for depth. Even then it makes no sense. It makes even less sense to say you could have said "Let's Bargnani him" to mean "trading for depth" when the Bargs deal wasn't a depth trade.
    No I am not comparing gays salary with siakams.
    Iím saying I would rather have siakam than 3 lesser players.

    But ok, so you can see why I said ďletís Rudy gay himĒ? Because it makes the most sense as an example of trading a player for depth pieces.
    Last edited by ChongInc.; 09-19-2021 at 04:25 PM.

  10. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    If that means shopping him, I think we already did that.

    Although I would be interested if the rumours about Memphis making Brooks and Anderson available are true.
    Everything Iíve read has said we werenít shopping him. MU was taking calls because after drafting Barnes other GMís weíre wondering if siakam was on the block because heís a great player and could really elevate a team.

  11. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Everything Iíve read has said we werenít shopping him. MU was taking calls because after drafting Barnes other GMís weíre wondering if siakam was on the block because heís a great player and could really elevate a team.
    Yeah they said the same thing to Demar. I donít doubt that we discussed Siakam to the 6ers, donít think the rumours with Sacramento were just rumours. I think we had discussions but ultimately the deals werenít good enough and we stood pat. In any case my post was about your point of shipping him off for depth, my response is I would consider it for the right deal. For example if the Memphis rumours were true Iíd be interested.

  12. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    No I am not comparing gays salary with siakams.
    Iím saying I would rather have siakam than 3 lesser players.

    But ok, so you can see why I said ďletís Rudy gay himĒ? Because it makes the most sense as an example of trading a player for depth pieces.
    If Siakam continues to struggle and butts heads with the coaching staff again, I wouldn't count the option out.

  13. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    If Siakam continues to struggle and butts heads with the coaching staff again, I wouldn't count the option out.
    I would. If anything Iíd be looking to derozan him rather than gay him.

  14. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I would. If anything Iíd be looking to derozan him rather than gay him.
    You're already "gaying" him

    It was your own suggestion, I just said that I would consider it lol.

    Also the Kawhi situation was unique and incredibly rare. A super star in his prime endures a freak injury and then loses trust in his franchises front office and demands to be traded. Wouldn't hold my breath.

  15. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Interesting discussion about siakams contract on Reddit right now. The question posed:
    If MU waited until after the bubble to sign siakam, how much would he have gotten?

    The consensus is that he would have still gotten the max because he was all-nba 2nd team and an all star starter that year. I agree with this take. Guys like him who contribute in all facets of the game get the max.

    Any opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    No we are talking about the players. Youíre talking about the extensions.

    And you donít think talent evaluators consider factors like we delt with last season? Iím 100% positive they do, and they donít just use basic stats like you are when formulating an opinion.

    Meh.
    The first quote was the original post that restarted this conversation. So if you're not talking about the extensions, then please clarify what are we talking about?

    Now to answer you second question: I would provide advanced stats but a) you wont read them & b) you've admitted to no understanding them or how to "navigate them" but I can provide them to you if you'd like.

    FVV faced the same challenges Siakam did. He contracted the virus, he played all his games on the road. How come his season wasnt impacted by the same excuses you are making for Siakam?
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-20-2021 at 01:35 PM.

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