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  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I think we get what heís getting at and I agree.
    Iím not at all prepared to let siakam go. The goal is to pair him up with a primary ball handler who can create.

    An underrated factor to siakam is he stays healthy.
    Yeah, I meant to say 1B. I don't know why my brain went to 1A. Anyways, the health is also a big deal, so thank you for bringing that up. Overall, despite the opinions of some of the more reactionary fans, he's worth his contract, in my opinion. Unless he's part of a trade for someone like Giannis, I don't see a scenario where it benefits the team to move him.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Raptor View Post
    Yeah, I meant to say 1B. I don't know why my brain went to 1A. Anyways, the health is also a big deal, so thank you for bringing that up. Overall, despite the opinions of some of the more reactionary fans, he's worth his contract, in my opinion. Unless he's part of a trade for someone like Giannis, I don't see a scenario where it benefits the team to move him.
    Totally agree.

    His defence would also be almost impossible to replace.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Raptor View Post
    Yeah, I meant to say 1B. I don't know why my brain went to 1A. Anyways, the health is also a big deal, so thank you for bringing that up. Overall, despite the opinions of some of the more reactionary fans, he's worth his contract, in my opinion. Unless he's part of a trade for someone like Giannis, I don't see a scenario where it benefits the team to move him.
    Its not about being reactionary. Its about the facts. Siakam is owed on average $32.5 million per for the next 4 years. Even if you wanted to move him, do you think there are many teams lined up to take on that salary after the playoff performance he just had?

    "Siakam went 4-of-32 (12.5%) against Boston, the worst 3-point percentage in a playoff series in NBA history (minimum 30 attempts), according to ESPN Stats & Information research."
    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...boston-celtics


    My point was never to trade or move him. especially not when his value is at its lowest. My point is that we need to land that go to player for Siakam to revert back to his 2nd, or 3rd option role where he thrived last year when we had Kawhi. Its so obvious that he thrives in that secondary role and struggles as a the primary go to guy. If were unable to land that go to player, and continue with Siakam in that role, he will struggle, and it will be more obvious in the post season when the game slows down in a half court set.
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 10-23-2020 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Raptor View Post
    I think Siakam has more of a chance of being a cornerstone guy than Bosh based on him being more of a tweener SF/PF, and how much his skills have morphed over the last three years. That being said, ultimately I don't think he's someone who you commit to building a team around. However, he'd make a 1A secondary player to a superstar. I think Masai has every intention of landing another star to put along Siakam in the next 2-3 years.
    Neither are true super stars, so I would disagree. Bosh at one time was one of the best PF's in the league. But I still considered him a 2nd tier star. Much like Siakam is. These are not players built to lead a team to a ship.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Neither are true super stars, so I would disagree. Bosh at one time was one of the best PF's in the league. But I still considered him a 2nd tier star. Much like Siakam is. These are not players built to lead a team to a ship.
    Youíre right, but I agree with what heís saying in that a player who can bring the ball up the court and play a bit of PG is positioned better to lead a team than a PF that needs to get into his spot before touching the ball.
    If siakam was 22 I would have much more hope in him being able to reach that level. I donít think he can at this point, but he is pretty much a perfect pippin.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Its not about being reactionary. Its about the facts. Siakam is owed on average $32.5 million per for the next 4 years. Even if you wanted to move him, do you think there are many teams lined up to take on that salary after the playoff performance he just had?

    "Siakam went 4-of-32 (12.5%) against Boston, the worst 3-point percentage in a playoff series in NBA history (minimum 30 attempts), according to ESPN Stats & Information research."
    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...boston-celtics


    My point was never to trade or move him. especially not when his value is at its lowest. My point is that we need to land that go to player for Siakam to revert back to his 2nd, or 3rd option role where he thrived last year when we had Kawhi. Its so obvious that he thrives in that secondary role and struggles as a the primary go to guy. If were unable to land that go to player, and continue with Siakam in that role, he will struggle, and it will be more obvious in the post season when the game slows down in a half court set.
    I think siakam would still have a ton of trade value. As much as just about anyone in the league. More than anyone else on the roster for sure, more than prime derozan, more than oladipo, more than PG, more than 99% of the league.

  7. #397
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    Possible more than kawhi considering age/contract/health.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I think siakam would still have a ton of trade value. As much as just about anyone in the league. More than anyone else on the roster for sure, more than prime derozan, more than oladipo, more than PG, more than 99% of the league.
    His trade value is at its lowest right now. Why? To say he has as much trade value as anyone in the league is just flat out wrong.

    Take a look at that stat above, he shot the worst 3pt % in any playoff series in the HISTORY of the NBA. Bro that is not good. Its historically bad.

    Demars trade value got us a rental named Kawhi. Also Demar was making 27 mill not 32. The last year in Siakams deal is 36 mill. Thats 9 mill more than Demars.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    His trade value is at its lowest right now. Why? To say he has as much trade value as anyone in the league is just flat out wrong.

    Take a look at that stat above, he shot the worst 3pt % in any playoff series in the HISTORY of the NBA. Bro that is not good. Its historically bad.

    Demars trade value got us a rental named Kawhi. Also Demar was making 27 mill not 32. The last year in Siakams deal is 36 mill. Thats 9 mill more than Demars.
    Respectfully disagree. We can nit pick particular stats where he was god-awful in one postseason, but he still defends, rebounds and hustles. He's also shown he can be a scoring option when not the primary one. He's also shown significant growth every season he's been in the league so far. Those are all significant factors in his trade value. Plus, not all GMs watch our team as closely as we do, I mean, if they did, we'd have never unloaded Bargnani. His stock is not as high as it could be given the amount of money on his contract, and he's not the player we all wish he was (yet), but to say his stock as at an all-time low is a bit extreme.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    His trade value is at its lowest right now. Why? To say he has as much trade value as anyone in the league is just flat out wrong.

    Take a look at that stat above, he shot the worst 3pt % in any playoff series in the HISTORY of the NBA. Bro that is not good. Its historically bad.

    Demars trade value got us a rental named Kawhi. Also Demar was making 27 mill not 32. The last year in Siakams deal is 36 mill. Thats 9 mill more than Demars.
    Yeah I still stand my my statement.

  11. #401
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    I donít think the trade value of players swings as wildly as you suggest (barring injury).
    Siakam would have been at peak value after the regular season, but now he is a trade-bum?

    I just donít agree. Off the top of my head i can think of 1 for 1 star trades that would be accepted for siakam in the blink of an eye.
    PG, Westbrook, oladipo or Turner (possibly both tbh), shai, Green...

    There might be about 10-15 players with more trade value than siakam in the entire league, and theyíre pretty much all 1Aís.

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    No, but we are talking about winning a championship, and how you cannot win one with siakam (or bosh) as your best player/#1 option.

    I never suggested that bosh wasnít our #1 option when he was here. He obviously was, and thatís why we couldnít succeed in the playoffs while he was here.
    Winning a championship is a team game. It's not even about who is or isn't capable of being a no.1 option. There are a ton of players who can be no.1 options on a championship as long as the supporting cast is solid. Rip was a no.1 option on a championship contender, but he's a relatively weak no.1 option. On the other end of the spectrum, people used to argue whether or not MJ was capable of being a no.1 option when he kept failing prior to the Bulls landing Pippen in the draft (seriously, look up old sports articles). But it wasn't that MJ wasn't capable, his teams were just garbage.

    Was our lack of playoff success because of Bosh, or a lack of talent? It's a different argument altogether if you're arguing that Bosh is not a no.1 option because he was not capable of dragging a bunch of d-league players past the first round. The best cast we surrounded Bosh with was '06-'07, when BC got lucky with his euro signings. But Garbo pretty much got a career ending injury before the playoffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Yeah any player plays different when they become the #3 option. He was always going to be a great robin. Bosh would have been perfect with Vince.
    No he played different because he wasn't bogged down by a garbage coaching staff. Look at when Lebron left, Wade was washed up and Bosh was handed the keys to the franchise. Do you think Spo made Dragic dribble for 18 seconds and fed Bosh in the post, when Lebron left? If it wasn't for the blood clots, his legacy would be completely different right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Triano was an assistant for a long time after and just recently retired.
    Sure, but none of them ever came close to a head coaching position or even a lead assistant role since then. Not in the NBA, NCAA or even Europe. It's a bad look when Jay Triano is the only Bosh-era coach on the coaching staff that had a coaching career after the Raptors. It is an indictment of our management and coaching staff at the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    KG had some good teams around him at times in minni.
    Not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    K so should we look at Anthony Davisí playoff record before LeBron? Kevin Love? KAT? Aldridge without a #1 guard? How far would Denver get without Murray?

    I canít think of a single big who can lead their team to a ship as the #1 option these days.
    Prime Howard did about as good as any big I can remember in getting to the finals. Even he had jammer Nelson, turkgolu, rishard Lewis. Howard wasnít creating the offence on that team.
    You're demonstrating that winning a championship requires a team, not that bigs are incapable of being no.1 options rofl.

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    He also ran in the a dynasty called the Warriors. thats not a good example because Harden got his team to the conference finals twice and was eliminated by the warriors both in 2015 and 2018. Infact if you watched the 2018 playoffs you would remember the Rockets were on the verge of beating the Warriors before Chris Paul got injured.

    Even then, Harden lead his teams to two conference finals in a tougher Western Conference. Bosh never got out the first round with the Raptors. Albeit he did have a terrible roster around him with suspect coaching but this is why I say its a bad comparison.
    The argument he was making was that you can't be a true no.1 option, if you have never won a championship. The argument wasn't about being a no.1 option on a championship team, it was about being a no.1 option on a contender. The goalposts are being shifted.

    It's not a bad comparison because I'm not comparing James Harden with Bosh. I'm literally pointing out an example of a legit no.1 option on a contender that has never won a championship as a counter point.

    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    you missed the point here. The point was if Siakam isnt even as good as Bosh is he worth building around? We can debate Bosh being better than Siakam but who cares about that, what Im trying to point out is that maybe Siakam isnt the guy we want to move forward with as our corner stone.

    Now with respect to Bosh, I think it was apparent that when his usage went down he became more valuable to a contender. With Lebron and Wade he had the luxury of having two guys command the majority of the apposing teams defensive attention. In comparison Siakam also benefited from that when we had Kawhi. He played off the ball beautifully and thrived in that role as a 2nd, or 3rd option along with Lowry. That's what Im getting at here. Neither Bosh or Siakam are suitable to be that number one guy but both would be ideal complimentary pieces to true super stars.
    I didn't miss the point at all. I'm not responding to your original post about Siakam. I posted an opinion about Bosh and people responded.

    Like I said, if you want to argue that Bosh didn't show enough in Toronto to warrant being a no.1 option, that's fair. But the skillset and the way he was used by Spo in Miami, indicates to me that we didn't fully realize or utilize his skillset efficiently.

    You had a guy that broke how NBA teams played as a role player, imagine if a front office or a coach realized that several years earlier. In a situation where teams are zigging and you have a bonafide zag, that is enough of a competitive advantage to help you win a championship.

  13. #403
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    Siakam still has a ton of value in the league. Teams don't care if he is a "true" no.1 option or not. That's fan talk. His value is dictated solely by the market and the NBA is still in a dire need of lengthy bigs that can guard the perimeter, switch 1-5, handle the ball and has a decent offensive skillset.

    The only big that can do all this better than Siakam right now is Anthony Davis (and Giannis if you consider him a big).

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    Winning a championship is a team game. It's not even about who is or isn't capable of being a no.1 option. There are a ton of players who can be no.1 options on a championship as long as the supporting cast is solid. Rip was a no.1 option on a championship contender, but he's a relatively weak no.1 option. On the other end of the spectrum, people used to argue whether or not MJ was capable of being a no.1 option when he kept failing prior to the Bulls landing Pippen in the draft (seriously, look up old sports articles). But it wasn't that MJ wasn't capable, his teams were just garbage.

    Was our lack of playoff success because of Bosh, or a lack of talent? It's a different argument altogether if you're arguing that Bosh is not a no.1 option because he was not capable of dragging a bunch of d-league players past the first round. The best cast we surrounded Bosh with was '06-'07, when BC got lucky with his euro signings. But Garbo pretty much got a career ending injury before the playoffs.



    No he played different because he wasn't bogged down by a garbage coaching staff. Look at when Lebron left, Wade was washed up and Bosh was handed the keys to the franchise. Do you think Spo made Dragic dribble for 18 seconds and fed Bosh in the post, when Lebron left? If it wasn't for the blood clots, his legacy would be completely different right now.



    Sure, but none of them ever came close to a head coaching position or even a lead assistant role since then. Not in the NBA, NCAA or even Europe. It's a bad look when Jay Triano is the only Bosh-era coach on the coaching staff that had a coaching career after the Raptors. It is an indictment of our management and coaching staff at the time.




    Not at all.



    You're demonstrating that winning a championship requires a team, not that bigs are incapable of being no.1 options rofl.



    The argument he was making was that you can't be a true no.1 option, if you have never won a championship. The argument wasn't about being a no.1 option on a championship team, it was about being a no.1 option on a contender. The goalposts are being shifted.

    It's not a bad comparison because I'm not comparing James Harden with Bosh. I'm literally pointing out an example of a legit no.1 option on a contender that has never won a championship as a counter point.



    I didn't miss the point at all. I'm not responding to your original post about Siakam. I posted an opinion about Bosh and people responded.

    Like I said, if you want to argue that Bosh didn't show enough in Toronto to warrant being a no.1 option, that's fair. But the skillset and the way he was used by Spo in Miami, indicates to me that we didn't fully realize or utilize his skillset efficiently.

    You had a guy that broke how NBA teams played as a role player, imagine if a front office or a coach realized that several years earlier. In a situation where teams are zigging and you have a bonafide zag, that is enough of a competitive advantage to help you win a championship.
    ď The argument he was making was that you can't be a true no.1 option, if you have never won a championship.Ē
    Nope. No one ever said this. Repeating it doesnít make it true.

    Go ahead and think you can build a championship roster with bosh as your best player. Your entitled to your opinion as much as the rest of us. I personally havenít seen ANYTHING that would lead me to that conclusion, and you have failed to provide any evidence to convince me otherwise.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    Siakam still has a ton of value in the league. Teams don't care if he is a "true" no.1 option or not. That's fan talk. His value is dictated solely by the market and the NBA is still in a dire need of lengthy bigs that can guard the perimeter, switch 1-5, handle the ball and has a decent offensive skillset.

    The only big that can do all this better than Siakam right now is Anthony Davis (and Giannis if you consider him a big).
    Davis still gets owned by quicker guards. Iíd say siakam is better at Switching onto guards imo. That could be debatable though, just using they eye test.

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