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  1. #211
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    11,087
    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    In a 1 on 1 matchup it's easily Westbrook > Lowry. When it comes to team basketball, running an offence, managing yourself and others on D then it's easily Lowry.

    I think something that gets overlooked even by Raptor fans is just how much Lowry adapted his game since he got here. He went through so many changes in his game and never fought any of them. First he was too passive, then too assertive, then he started taking bad shots, the playoff struggles, then he became a reliable 1A and after only 1 or 2 years was asked to give up the reins and focus way more on becoming a floor general. He's also officially shaken his post season demons. He's taken every change in stride and has continuously gotten better. Off the top of my head it's hard to think of a player who went through more changes than Lowry did over the past decade or so.
    And he was considered I coachable early in his career. I agree itís insane.

  2. #212
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    13,408
    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    I mean in a vacuum, Westbrook is better than Lowry, it's not even an argument. If we're strictly comparing basketball skills and physical attributes, it's not even close. But basketball isn't played in a vacuum. Lowry's intangibles make him a more effective player than Westbrook.

    How did they make a mistake dumping CP3? Harden hated CP3. lol what do you want them to do?

    And honestly, people gotta stop using "not winning a chip" as a condemnation of a player's skill and talent. We have this weird habit of mythologizing winners and losers in this stupid dichotomy, where winners are literal gods and losers suffer from a multitude of moral foibles.
    I do agree with you in a sense about winning championships. Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Charles Barkley are not worthless bums. However, because one single player influences the game so much, it is completely understandable. You certainly don't hear the same type of chatter about championships in other leagues like you do in basketball.

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,204
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I do agree with you in a sense about winning championships. Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Charles Barkley are not worthless bums.
    I mean people mythologize winners in any sport. I don't think it is unique to the NBA. There's a great deal of survivorship bias in these type of discussions. I just take issue with the idea that someone either is or isn't a "winner". I think it is completely nonsensical.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    However, because one single player influences the game so much, it is completely understandable. You certainly don't hear the same type of chatter about championships in other leagues like you do in basketball.
    Sure, but the other team has players too. At that level between two stars, it is essentially a zero sum game. The supporting cast, coaching, management and even dumb luck can make all the difference. Some player's legacies are literally decided by a handful of baskets, coaching mistakes and/or timely/untimely injuries. People wildly overstate the talent difference between winners and losers. I mean think about Kawhi's shot against Philly. If that ball bounced any other way, every single player on that team would have a drastically different narrative. It doesn't make sense to me to use such a temperamental criteria to characterize or evaluate players.
    Last edited by ecart; Yesterday at 04:55 PM.

  4. #214
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    11,087
    The reason I think we see it more so in basketball is because 1 dominant player can carry the team, or especially 2 dominant players. So itís expected that if youíre the best in the league you can carry your team to a championship.

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