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  1. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Please explain. Thatís why I brought the convo here: so an actual conversation can be had about it, and so I can get some clarification. Reddit is the worst for convos or correct info
    You don't need to be 5th year eligible for a 5th year. You need to be eligible for a 6th year. We didn't save an extra year by timing it. We just didn't want to give it to him.

    Secondly, triggering a performance incentive doesn't mean you automatically get 30%. He would have had the same sliding scale for incentives.

    A player's eligibility for a higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive that amount -- as with all contracts, the actual salary is a matter of negotiation between the player (or his agent) and his team. However, a Designated Rookie must receive at least 25% of the cap. In addition, for players entering their fifth season the exact percentage of the cap can be based on how the player meets the 5th Year, 30% Max criteria. For example, a rookie scale extension can specify that the player will receive 27% of the cap if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA Second Team, 28% if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA First Team, or 30% if he meets the criteria by being named Most Valuable Player.
    Thirdly it doesn't really matter that he got second team that year. They could have easily put it in the contract to account for that which they obviously did by giving him 28%.

    And it is misleading to say that we saved money when Siakam is a RFA and other teams can't even offer him the full max. It's literally our discretion to give him anything beyond 25%. That comment only makes sense if we live in a reality where Masai has to give Siakam the 30% because making all nba second team automatically gives him 30% and other teams have the ability to offer him the 30% forcing Masai to match. We don't live in that reality.

    And honestly, when people talk about the max, they don't literally mean any max rookie extension. When all these writers and analysts are criticizing his contract, they're talking about the designated rookie extension. Cause if Masai waited to extend him, not even Siakam's agent would have fought for the full extension after that abysmal bubble performance.
    Last edited by ecart; 09-16-2021 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    they're gonna sit him and try to trade him/buy him out next year as predicted but i wonder if he'll opt into his option.
    he has 47 million reasons to do so. He would have to be out of his mind to turn that down.

    Houston knows they dont have much other choice. they'll shut him down for the year to make sure the minutes go to Green & KPJ. Wall can focus on his health, strength & conditioning. Hopefully they can revisit the buy out next year.

    And yeah I remember when Eagles said theres no way Houston would shut him down. Well here we are. lol

  3. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    he has 47 million reasons to do so. He would have to be out of his mind to turn that down.

    Houston knows they dont have much other choice. they'll shut him down for the year to make sure the minutes go to Green & KPJ. Wall can focus on his health, strength & conditioning. Hopefully they can revisit the buy out next year.

    And yeah I remember when Eagles said theres no way Houston would shut him down. Well here we are. lol
    i think it depends on how well the rookies do. if theyre really good, Houston may want to attach draft picks to speed up their time line. Also Wall may just get bored and be willing to buyout for 10-20M less and hope to make up for it on the open market next free agency period.

  4. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    You don't need to be 5th year eligible for a 5th year. You need to be eligible for a 6th year. We didn't save an extra year by timing it. We just didn't want to give it to him.

    Secondly, triggering a performance incentive doesn't mean you automatically get 30%. He would have had the same sliding scale for incentives.



    Thirdly it doesn't really matter that he got second team that year. They could have easily put it in the contract to account for that which they obviously did by giving him 28%.

    And it is misleading to say that we saved money when Siakam is a RFA and other teams can't even offer him the full max. It's literally our discretion to give him anything beyond 25%. That comment only makes sense if we live in a reality where Masai has to give Siakam the 30% because making all nba second team automatically gives him 30% and other teams have the ability to offer him the 30% forcing Masai to match. We don't live in that reality.

    And honestly, when people talk about the max, they don't literally mean any max rookie extension. When all these writers and analysts are criticizing his contract, they're talking about the designated rookie extension. Cause if Masai waited to extend him, not even Siakam's agent would have fought for the full extension after that abysmal bubble performance.
    ummm... pretty sure his agent would be pushing for the Max after winning a championship as the 2nd most productive player, making the All-NBA team, and starting the All-Star game. Thats his job. 20 games under those circumstances would not change his value as much as you claim imo.

    So MU did infact negotiate a lower rate than the true max if he made all-nba teams, and signed him for 2 years less than if Siakam waited.

    Sry im not seeing the negativity. The only way this makes sense is if the bubble play plummeted his value to an insane degree where he wouldnt ask for max years, and max money (after acquiring more accolades), and agreed to not having incentives. I dont think the Bubble play had as much impact on his value around the league as you think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    Honestly, you should be an MLB scout or GM with your eyes

  5. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    ummm... pretty sure his agent would be pushing for the Max after winning a championship as the 2nd most productive player, making the All-NBA team, and starting the All-Star game. Thats his job. 20 games under those circumstances would not change his value as much as you claim imo.

    So MU did infact negotiate a lower rate than the true max if he made all-nba teams, and signed him for 2 years less than if Siakam waited.

    Sry im not seeing the negativity. The only way this makes sense is if the bubble play plummeted his value to an insane degree where he wouldnt ask for max years, and max money (after acquiring more accolades), and agreed to not having incentives. I dont think the Bubble play had as much impact on his value around the league as you think.
    Heres something your friends on Reddit are forgetting. MU didn't stop watching after the regular season ended. Siakam struggled mightily in the post season. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...boston-celtics

    "His 3-point percentage was historically bad. Siakam went 4-of-32 (12.5%) against Boston, the worst 3-point percentage in a playoff series in NBA history (minimum 30 attempts), according to ESPN Stats & Information research".

    "His overall 3-point playoff performance of 10-for-53 (18.9%) is the second worst in a postseason (minimum 50 attempts) behind only Lindsey Hunter's 8-for-53 effort in 2001."

    "Siakam's scoring average dipped to 14.9 points and his shooting to 38.2%. vs Boston"

    And if you dont want to simply look at the playoffs then this should be interesting to you as well. "Siakam was averaging 23.6 points on 45.9% shooting overall and 35.9% from deep during the regular season before the stoppage. It led to him earning his first All-Star nod. But once the restart began, Siakam's offensive output dipped. In the seven seeding games in which he played in Lake Buena Vista, he averaged 16.9 points on 39.4% shooting from the field while maintaining roughly the same 3-point percentage as before (35.6%)." like i said before Siakams struggles started before the post season began and only got worse in the playoffs..
    Last edited by smith&wesson; 09-16-2021 at 05:36 PM.

  6. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    ummm... pretty sure his agent would be pushing for the Max after winning a championship as the 2nd most productive player, making the All-NBA team, and starting the All-Star game. Thats his job. 20 games under those circumstances would not change his value as much as you claim imo.

    So MU did infact negotiate a lower rate than the true max if he made all-nba teams, and signed him for 2 years less than if Siakam waited.

    Sry im not seeing the negativity. The only way this makes sense is if the bubble play plummeted his value to an insane degree where he wouldnt ask for max years, and max money (after acquiring more accolades), and agreed to not having incentives. I dont think the Bubble play had as much impact on his value around the league as you think.
    Lowry was the 2nd most productive player in that run if you're talking about over all production.

    Also Randle did all the things youre mentioning. He won MIP, he made all nba 2nd team, he was even 8th in MVP voting and got a lesser contract. So no, those things wouldnt mean that Siakam would automatically get more like you're suggesting bro.

  7. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Heres something your friends on Reddit are forgetting. MU didn't stop watching after the regular season ended. Siakam struggled mightily in the post season. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...boston-celtics

    "His 3-point percentage was historically bad. Siakam went 4-of-32 (12.5%) against Boston, the worst 3-point percentage in a playoff series in NBA history (minimum 30 attempts), according to ESPN Stats & Information research".

    "His overall 3-point playoff performance of 10-for-53 (18.9%) is the second worst in a postseason (minimum 50 attempts) behind only Lindsey Hunter's 8-for-53 effort in 2001."

    "Siakam's scoring average dipped to 14.9 points and his shooting to 38.2%. vs Boston"

    And if you dont want to simply look at the playoffs then this should be interesting to you as well. "Siakam was averaging 23.6 points on 45.9% shooting overall and 35.9% from deep during the regular season before the stoppage. It led to him earning his first All-Star nod. But once the restart began, Siakam's offensive output dipped. In the seven seeding games in which he played in Lake Buena Vista, he averaged 16.9 points on 39.4% shooting from the field while maintaining roughly the same 3-point percentage as before (35.6%)." like i said before Siakams struggles started before the post season began and only got worse in the playoffs..
    You literally quoted me giving my opinion on exactly what youíre saying lol.

  8. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Lowry was the 2nd most productive player in that run if you're talking about over all production.

    Also Randle did all the things youre mentioning. He won MIP, he made all nba 2nd team, he was even 8th in MVP voting and got a lesser contract. So no, those things wouldnt mean that Siakam would automatically get more like you're suggesting bro.
    First part - the stats say otherwise.

    Second part - yes because heís a defensive black hole. If randle was one of the top defenders at his position then he would have gotten the max (or in siakamís case - 93% of the max).

  9. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    ummm... pretty sure his agent would be pushing for the Max after winning a championship as the 2nd most productive player, making the All-NBA team, and starting the All-Star game. Thats his job. 20 games under those circumstances would not change his value as much as you claim imo.
    Says the guy that would write off a player on another team completely if they suck in the playoffs lmfao. His agent can ask all he wants, Siakam is a RFA. Anything above 25% is completely discretionary. GMs give players above that as a show of good faith, it's not a pay rate you automatically lock into because you made second team.

    You're also severely underestimating how much momentum and narratives play into all this. After a championship, everyone is riding a high. But when you play that terribly, ***** sobering.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    So MU did infact negotiate a lower rate than the true max if he made all-nba teams, and signed him for 2 years less than if Siakam waited.
    lol no Masai literally gave him the same sliding scale as if he was a 5th year eligible rookie designated. He wouldn't have gotten the years either and it's not a dealbreaker for agents/siakam because it is more profitable for them to sign shorter terms. Barely anyone gets a 5th year let alone a sixth year.

    Secondly, the mistake you're making even after it was explained to you is you're assuming he straight up gets 30% for second team all NBA. Nobody straight up gets 30% unless they win MVP or some ****. Simmons, Tatum, Davis etc all have/had the same sliding incentives. The only exceptions to this are special players like Luka where you just hand them a blank cheque.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Sry im not seeing the negativity. The only way this makes sense is if the bubble play plummeted his value to an insane degree where he wouldnt ask for max years, and max money (after acquiring more accolades), and agreed to not having incentives. I dont think the Bubble play had as much impact on his value around the league as you think.
    I don't think you understand incentives because that's a nonsensical argument because if your value drops, you would want an incentive laden contract lol. Secondly, you're being hyperbolic. 30% vs 25% isn't "plummeting his value to an insane degree". As for the latter, you wouldn't say that if he wasn't a Raptor.
    Last edited by ecart; 09-16-2021 at 08:04 PM.

  10. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecart View Post
    Says the guy that would write off a player on another team completely if they suck in the playoffs lmfao. His agent can ask all he wants, Siakam is a RFA. Anything above 25% is completely discretionary. GMs give players above that as a show of good faith, it's not a pay rate you automatically lock into because you made second team.

    You're also severely underestimating how much momentum and narratives play into all this. After a championship, everyone is riding a high. But when you play that terribly, ***** sobering.



    lol no Masai literally gave him the same sliding scale as if he was a 5th year eligible rookie designated. He wouldn't have gotten the years either and it's not a dealbreaker for agents/siakam because it is more profitable for them to sign shorter terms. Barely anyone gets a 5th year let alone a sixth year.

    Secondly, the mistake you're making even after it was explained to you is you're assuming he straight up gets 30% for second team all NBA. Nobody straight up gets 30% unless they win MVP or some ****. Simmons, Tatum, Davis etc all have/had the same sliding incentives. The only exceptions to this are special players like Luka where you just hand them a blank cheque.



    I don't think you understand incentives because that's a nonsensical argument because if your value drops, you would want an incentive laden contract lol. Secondly, you're being hyperbolic. 30% vs 25% isn't "plummeting his value to an insane degree". As for the latter, you wouldn't say that if he wasn't a Raptor.
    Wow thatís a lot of opinions on my personality considering we have never met in person. Itís like me thinking this team will outperform expectations for the 10th year in a row is such a homer belief that you guys cannot get past it lol.

    So anything above 25% is discretionary. Yet the sliding scale is standard. But he wouldnít have earned the incentives? Youíre kinda all over the map here trying to put me down.

    Regardless, I donít think your guysí opinions of siakam would change if he was making a couple million less. I donít think that could million is a big deal. I think he earned it, and I think what separates him from randle is his defensive versatility. Iíd gladly pay a few more mil for playoff winning caliber defence.

    To each their own. Poor us Toronto fans strapped with ****** siakam maybe MU should Rudy gay him and we will be a better team lmao.

  11. #1181
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    Also I was a huge derozan fan. That should be proof enough that I wouldnít write someone off for playoff flops or bad defence.

    Derozan just signed for about what siakam is making (85X3). Who would you rather have if youíre trying to contend? Now tell me that any team trying to win a chip wouldnít love to be able to give siakam the max.

  12. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Wow thatís a lot of opinions on my personality considering we have never met in person. Itís like me thinking this team will outperform expectations for the 10th year in a row is such a homer belief that you guys cannot get past it lol.
    What does this have to do with your personality? Having an opinion about the Raptors isn't a personality lol. You basically put down every single non-Raptor player that doesn't have an insane post-season performance. You act like we haven't interacted for years and I'm just reading what you write for the first time. I don't need to be your best friend to point that out, it's not that deep. We can cut the pretense, man. It is what it is. I'm sure others have noticed this too if they haven't pointed it out already. I haven't said anything about the bolded so idk why you're even bringing it up. The only comment I've made regarding our record next year is "Play in for what".

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    So anything above 25% is discretionary. Yet the sliding scale is standard. But he wouldnít have earned the incentives? Youíre kinda all over the map here trying to put me down.
    Nah dude they're two separate things you just don't want to read anything because it goes against your beliefs. You didn't read a single thing I posted and just reiterating the wrong thing over and over again. And trying to put you down? First of all, it's not even your idea. And telling you I already addressed that point in a previous post is not putting you down. Soft tings.

    The first idea is that every max has an elevator clause. It doesn't matter if Siakam extended early AND then got second team all nba vs if Siakam got second team all nba AND then got extended. I know this because LITERALLY every single rookie designated max has an elevator clause and the elevator clause is what Masai gave Siakam. That's why Woj always says "up to XXX million dollar deal". Unless they win MVP, they're not getting the full 30%.

    The second idea is in response to the idea that he would get 25+% regardless because of the open market and by extending him early we saved money. Since Siakam is a RFA, the Raptors are only obligated to match competing contracts. Since competing teams are unable to offer anything beyond 25%, offering Siakam anything more than 25% is not an obligation, it is completely discretionary. So this idea that we've somehow saved money by jumping the gun is just wrong.

    Neither concept has anything to do with the other.

    lol I don't give a **** about that whole Randle argument. ***** so boring. All I'm saying is that Reddit comment is wrong and your follow up responses are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Also I was a huge derozan fan. That should be proof enough that I wouldnít write someone off for playoff flops or bad defence.
    Yeah because DD was a Raptor lol. How is this proof?
    Last edited by ecart; 09-17-2021 at 12:03 AM.

  13. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    First part - the stats say otherwise.

    Second part - yes because heís a defensive black hole. If randle was one of the top defenders at his position then he would have gotten the max (or in siakamís case - 93% of the max).

    Randle: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ran...ve-rating-2021
    Siakam: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/sia...ve-rating-2021

    If Randle was a black hole on defence why does he have such a better defensive rating than Siakam last season?

  14. #1184
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    Quote Originally Posted by smith&wesson View Post
    Randle: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ran...ve-rating-2021
    Siakam: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/sia...ve-rating-2021

    If Randle was a black hole on defence why does he have such a better defensive rating than Siakam last season?
    Cause Knicks were a higher rated defensive team lol

  15. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    You literally quoted me giving my opinion on exactly what youíre saying lol.
    So it doesnít matter if Siakam played poorly at the end of the regular season and piss poorly in the playoffs. The only thing that matters is the portion of the season he played well, and you conclude that he deserved more? When Iím showing you a player who bested him in every statistical cat last season and signed for less? Make it make sense for me bro.

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