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  1. #6766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Adaptable View Post
    The only clear aspect of the game that Kobe is/was more prolific than LeBron is his ........? Can't think of anything tbh, sorry, Kobe lovers. Although, he was a great/legend.
    1 vs 1 Kobe against Lebron I will pick Kobe over Lebron. I would have put my money on Kobe.

  2. #6767
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    LeBron. With no posible debate!

  3. #6768
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Sounds good, no rush I will check in and respond when I see you have. I know I added a decent amount of info with the articles/data/video there to look over. Hope you have a good trip!
    Ok, I'm back around and finally got back to this lol. I read those articles and agree with the points they are making for the most part. I have been on record saying that Spo was his greatest coach and essentially a mouth piece for Pat Riley. His time in Miami was the closest he ever came to running a real system with set plays. the winning streak they went on in 2013 was the best basketball I have ever seen one of LeBron's teams play for that stretch. Yet, I have to go with what my eyes tell me as well. There were times where he slipped into old habits at times. The 2014 NBA Finals would be the biggest example of that where he did most of his damage in blowout situations, then when the game tightened up, he was just not as effective. That is documented fact.

    I know and recognize that Wade was a shell of his former self and was not nearly as effective as he was in the previous years post season and NBA Finals. Dude looked all puffy that year like he was on some sort of meds or just how people look when they are alcoholics. Not sure what off court issues he was having or if was even that or if his body just broke down extremely fast. He did have mini spurts past that year where he came back on looked like his former self, though it was fleeting. That said, LeBron is still the leader of that team, and when you get gentlemen swept in five games and do so in the most lopsided point disparity in NBA history, you must question things and common sense would say that it was not only due to Wade being so much less than he used to be just one year previous. If that were the case, it could be argued that Wade's presence was the most valuable to the team. The fact that they took the same SA roster in seven games the year previous (with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili a year older in fact) and had basically the same team and lost in a record setting beatdown in only five games. Was that all or mostly due to Wade being all puffy looking and just not himself? If that were the case, then we would have to re-evaluate the impact he had on those previous two championships. Obviously, it was not only due to Wade, there were other factors at play here.

    LeBron was the best player on those teams and the most valuable. It's on record that there were motivational issues in the locker room as were attested to by many of the players on that team. I could argue that could be a knock on LeBron's leadership because he as the best player and most valuable player should be the guy most responsible for motivating his guys. We all know that LeBron is a good leader and I wold not say he is a bad leader, but he is not a great leader; though he got better in the next few years. Especially, this year in LA, which I think has been one of his best years in terms of overall team impact. He is just as good as Magic was in those years where he had to take over the team in 86-91 where Kareem was on his last legs and eventually retired. Now, can he cap it off with a championship like Magic did back in 87, and or 88.

    To the point of this thread, I have meditated on LeBron's All-Time ranking and who is better between him and Kobe. I just cannot discerningly place LeBron in my top five at this point in time. I have (in order) Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, and Duncan over him clearly. Now, while I personally would have Shaq over him currently, but would agree that there is an argument for LeBron due to longevity and Shaq's work ethic mostly at this point. Though, if I am guilty of anything, it's the value I place on bigs; mostly due to the impact they have on the floor. So, where making the argument of who I would take to start my team with, I would still give Shaq the edge because he is easier to build a team around and has potential to be far more dominant.

    I think it's more than fair to say that if you threw Shaq's, Kobe's, LeBron's, Hakeem's, and Wilt's name in a hat, you could pull out any one of their names and no one should complain if they were the guy to head out your franchise. It is hard for me to rank those guys in any decisive way. So, that being said, LeBron or Kobe could be fairly argued to be in the 7-11 place All-Time. Though, again, I would have Shaq at seven personally due to his overall dominance and the fact that he is a big and that therefore just comes with a greater impact than a non big historically. If someone had LeBron at number seven, I would not complain though.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 08-24-2020 at 05:16 AM.

  4. #6769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Ok, I'm back around and finally got back to this lol. *I read those articles and agree with the points they are making for the most part. *I have been on record saying that Spo was his greatest coach and essentially a mouth piece for Pat Riley. *His time in Miami was the closest he ever came to running a real system with set plays. *the winning streak they went on in 2013 was the best basketball I have ever seen one of LeBron's teams play for that stretch. *Yet, I have to go with what my eyes tell me as well. *There were times where he slipped into old habits at times. *The 2014 NBA Finals would be the biggest example of that where he did most of his damage in blowout situations, then when the game tightened up, he was just not as effective. *That is documented fact. *

    I know and recognize that Wade was a shell of his former self and was not nearly as effective as he was in the previous years post season and NBA Finals. *Dude looked all puffy that year like he was on some sort of meds or just how people look when they are alcoholics. *Not sure what off court issues he was having or if was even that or if his body just broke down extremely fast. *He did have mini spurts past that year where he came back on looked like his former self, though it was fleeting. *That said, LeBron is still the leader of that team, and when you get gentlemen swept in five games and do so in the most lopsided point disparity in NBA history, you must question things and common sense would say that it was not only due to Wade being so much less than he used to be just one year previous. *If that were the case, it could be argued that Wade's presence was the most valuable to the team. *The fact that they took the same SA roster *in seven games the year previous (with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili a year older in fact) and had basically the same team and lost in a record setting beatdown in only five games. *Was that all or mostly due to Wade being all puffy looking and just not himself? *If that were the case, then we would have to re-evaluate the impact he had on those previous two championships. *Obviously, it was not only due to Wade, there were other factors at play here. *

    LeBron was the best player on those teams and the most valuable. *It's on record that there were motivational issues in the locker room as were attested to by many of the players on that team. *I could argue that could be a knock on LeBron's leadership because he as the best player and most valuable player should be the guy most responsible for motivating his guys. *We all know that LeBron is a good leader and I wold not say he is a bad leader, but he is not a great leader; though he got better in the next few years. *Especially, this year in LA, which I think has been one of his best years in terms of overall team impact. *He is just as good as Magic was in those years where he had to take over the team in 86-91 where Kareem was on his last legs and eventually retired. *Now, can he cap it off with a championship like Magic did back in 87, and or 88.
    *
    Ya so he was in a system putting up his numbers and winning titles and MVP's*and FMVP's*with*some big performances along the way as well. The point has long been about him having one style when the reality is he has had many different ones depending on who he has played with and the coaching given his different stops. You mention this year and he has become more of a playmaker but I think it is partially due to not quite being as capable of dominating like he used to in other ways. It does show his variety of talents looking across each team (early Cle, Mia, Cle with Kyrie/Love, now Lakers) he has been the only guy and fit in with multiple different style players and adapted to each which is what I had been saying.*
    As to the Wade and that finals aspect a lot of what was in the video and break downs of him was also defense (they weren't top 10 in RS on that end either as*a team already). That is not just a Lebron thing and they were actually first exposed and beaten up that series when Lebron got cramps or whatever in that first game in SA. Lebron left with 4 minutes left down 2 and they lost the game by 15. That gives and idea of the defense/level of play without him and how much better SA was all around (I think they wanted it more but in part due to previous season and you could see it against OKC previous series from a better defense even). Miami's ortg that year was about 4 less than the year prior, that is what Wade's performance likely affected, not just leadership or style but like his poor efficiency and lack of normal volume due to it and how that can affect/limit others previously relying on him some for that gap (general gauge of offensive efficiency of a team but can talk about the teams numbers if you like raw data better). The other end maybe but again why blame Lebron for Wade's poor play or the overall team just not being great on that end necessarily most of the year or SA showing this or a chunk of it coming with him off the court like that? I am not saying he is perfect but the way you portrayed it seems a bit off base still.

    I am not even sure if he is a great leader imo or not anyways, I think that we are down to this being the potential issue despite some of the context... Well that isn't bad for a player as I can name many more flaws than kinda guessing things we don't fully know like this for basically everyone. I think a ton of stars have what I consider to be major flaws in leadership but that is also very opinion based and person to person or locker room to locker room etc. so it is much lower than the actual impact/ability of these guys to me. I think coaches like a Phil probably have more influence on a lot of that stuff anyways too in some way. Even just having a good set of vets can do this but again teams are different with*different people and context so tough to say.* I think this could be argued as a weakness in some ways though sure but not in a sense that separates him from others given his actual ability/impact which matters far more to me.*
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    To the point of this thread, I have meditated on LeBron's All-Time ranking and who is better between him and Kobe. *I just cannot discerningly place LeBron in my top five at this point in time. *I have (in order) Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, and Duncan over him clearly. *Now, while I personally would have Shaq over him currently, but would agree that there is an argument for LeBron due to longevity and Shaq's work ethic mostly at this point. *Though, if I am guilty of anything, it's the value I place on bigs; mostly due to the impact they have on the floor. *So, where making the argument of who I would take to start my team with, I would still give Shaq the edge because he is easier to build a team around and has potential to be far more dominant. *

    I think it's more than fair to say that if you threw Shaq's, Kobe's, LeBron's, Hakeem's, and Wilt's name in a hat, you could pull out any one of their names and no one should complain if they were the guy to head out your franchise. *It is hard for me to rank those guys in any decisive way. *So, that being said, LeBron or Kobe could be fairly argued to be in the 7-11 place All-Time. *Though, again, I would have Shaq at seven personally due to his overall dominance and the fact that he is a big and that therefore just comes with a greater impact than a non big historically. *If someone had LeBron at number seven, I would not complain though.
    I think I and many others just disagree on that. I don't have Bill that high (although in PSD threads on peak play I pushed for him before most) but even outside of that Lebron is right there with Kareem for me. He has the peak play and the longevity at this point with a very consistent level of domination with his individual level of play. Magic and Bird just don't have the same longevity either imo like you mention with Shaq. Duncan I also was high on in those peak threads but have over Russell but behind KAJ/Lebron.*
    I think you could name a lot more guys than that and still be happy. I would take Jordan/Kareem/Lebron's levels all time over others though. I think most of the time people arguing Lebron in that lower range like 9 and beyond they often tend to be missing context in their explanations which is what I was saying before and why it depends on what is said in depth.*Kobe I agree he normally falls in that range for people though. I agree on Shaq's dominance and likely have him top 7 as well or borderline at least.*

  5. #6770
    For me it's absolutely Kobe. I prefer his style, although he wasn't passing the ball much Lebron is also really good, but I'm not such a fan of his, plus he got involved in politics. Nobody asked him for his opinion.

  6. #6771
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    Quote Originally Posted by GB1977 View Post
    For me it's absolutely Kobe. I prefer his style, although he wasn't passing the ball much [emoji14] Lebron is also really good, but I'm not such a fan of his, plus he got involved in politics. Nobody asked him for his opinion.
    Shut up and dribble, am I right?


    Sports have been heavily entrenched with politics for a long, long time.

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  7. #6772
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    Not gonna
    Last edited by Chronz; 08-27-2020 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #6773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Not gonna
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYoS4BCHZVc
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  9. #6774
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    Quote Originally Posted by blams View Post
    Shut up and dribble, am I right?


    Sports have been heavily entrenched with politics for a long, long time.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Lol. I just said the same comment in the other thread.

  10. #6775
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    *
    Ya so he was in a system putting up his numbers and winning titles and MVP's*and FMVP's*with*some big performances along the way as well. The point has long been about him having one style when the reality is he has had many different ones depending on who he has played with and the coaching given his different stops. You mention this year and he has become more of a playmaker but I think it is partially due to not quite being as capable of dominating like he used to in other ways. It does show his variety of talents looking across each team (early Cle, Mia, Cle with Kyrie/Love, now Lakers) he has been the only guy and fit in with multiple different style players and adapted to each which is what I had been saying.*
    Imho, I think he was more amenable to functioning as a cog in a greater more team oriented system when he was hunting those first few championships and after his great failure back in 2011. Being more humbled, he put his faith more in Riley and therefore in Spo. After he got the proverbial monkey off his back, his focus began to shift on chasing that Jordan legacy and he knew he needed to win with big numbers to do so. Though we musn't forget how much tension LeBron has had with his coaches over the years. The shoulder bump with Spo being a prime example fo that. Of course this is only my personal observation.

    Not sure why LeBron changed up his style of play so much this year. Maybe he is being mentored by Magic on the side a bit, or perhaps he has matured and realizes that his team has the best chance of winning if he focuses more on playmaking so that they can get the full benefit of Anthony Davis's presence on that team. It wouldn't be such a stretch to believe that he listens to his naysayers and adjusts his game accordingly. I have noticed over the years that he does change things up to prove his critics wrong. One of the things I respect about him.


    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    As to the Wade and that finals aspect a lot of what was in the video and break downs of him was also defense (they weren't top 10 in RS on that end either as*a team already). That is not just a Lebron thing and they were actually first exposed and beaten up that series when Lebron got cramps or whatever in that first game in SA. Lebron left with 4 minutes left down 2 and they lost the game by 15. That gives and idea of the defense/level of play without him and how much better SA was all around (I think they wanted it more but in part due to previous season and you could see it against OKC previous series from a better defense even). Miami's ortg that year was about 4 less than the year prior, that is what Wade's performance likely affected, not just leadership or style but like his poor efficiency and lack of normal volume due to it and how that can affect/limit others previously relying on him some for that gap (general gauge of offensive efficiency of a team but can talk about the teams numbers if you like raw data better). The other end maybe but again why blame Lebron for Wade's poor play or the overall team just not being great on that end necessarily most of the year or SA showing this or a chunk of it coming with him off the court like that? I am not saying he is perfect but the way you portrayed it seems a bit off base still.
    LeBron played his best D from 09-13 imho. He began to slow down a bit in 2014, especially in the post season. Still he was one of the best defenders in the league at the time. Wade had fallen off a cliff defensively that is for certain. Still, Manu, Parker, and Duncan were less than the year before as well and Kawhi was far from the Kawhi we see today. It's just that they were on a quest for vengeance because they believed they let one slip through their fingers the year before. I agree they did as well. They definitely lost it more than the Heat won it. I digress. Wade's usage wasn't all that high in the NBA Finals that year where his efficiency or lack there of would have been the primary cause of them receiving the throttling that they did. It was primarily a motivational issue as was stated my many on that team and in the locker room. LeBron I believe padded his numbers in blowout situations (that can be factually backed up) to avoid further degradation from his critics.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am not even sure if he is a great leader imo or not anyways, I think that we are down to this being the potential issue despite some of the context... Well that isn't bad for a player as I can name many more flaws than kinda guessing things we don't fully know like this for basically everyone. I think a ton of stars have what I consider to be major flaws in leadership but that is also very opinion based and person to person or locker room to locker room etc. so it is much lower than the actual impact/ability of these guys to me. I think coaches like a Phil probably have more influence on a lot of that stuff anyways too in some way. Even just having a good set of vets can do this but again teams are different with*different people and context so tough to say.* I think this could be argued as a weakness in some ways though sure but not in a sense that separates him from others given his actual ability/impact which matters far more to me.*
    It all depends on how much you value leadership or how much you believe a players impact can be quantified by it. It is therefore impossible to quantify. Though if you have been a part of any basketball team whether organized or not, you should have a great understanding of just how valuable leadership can be. Imho, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird are the greatest individual leaders of All-Time. I hold leadership in very high regard, though as I said, I can't quantify it for you. You just have to listen to the players on their teams and watch how much they respected them in interviews. Also, watch how well the offense flows with them in the game and how well the team performs with them on the floor, rather than off the floor. Have you ever heard a Larry Bird led team complain about a lack of motivation? He would surely call them a bunch of sissies.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think I and many others just disagree on that. I don't have Bill that high (although in PSD threads on peak play I pushed for him before most) but even outside of that Lebron is right there with Kareem for me. He has the peak play and the longevity at this point with a very consistent level of domination with his individual level of play. Magic and Bird just don't have the same longevity either imo like you mention with Shaq. Duncan I also was high on in those peak threads but have over Russell but behind KAJ/Lebron.*
    I think you could name a lot more guys than that and still be happy. I would take Jordan/Kareem/Lebron's levels all time over others though. I think most of the time people arguing Lebron in that lower range like 9 and beyond they often tend to be missing context in their explanations which is what I was saying before and why it depends on what is said in depth.*Kobe I agree he normally falls in that range for people though. I agree on Shaq's dominance and likely have him top 7 as well or borderline at least.*
    I believe Bill Russell's impact is pretty tough to deny. 11 titles in 13 seasons and he was always the constant. When he left the organization, they went into a temporary dark abyss for almost a decade until Larry Bird got there. He was even the first and only player coach for 3 seasons I believe and won 2 titles in that span. You can correct me if I'm wrong on that one because I'm not 100% sure of the exact number of years and or titles. Though for an organization to let a player have that kind of control (control even "Coach LeBron" has never even gotten with all his influence) says a lot about how much faith they had in him and his bb IQ. That is the ultimate leadership if you ask me. Something again, I value tremendously.

    It is not a sin to have LeBron in the 7-11 range. It is impossible to determine a fair ranking for him when he is still playing due to recency bias and especially with how many both fanboys and haters he has. We have yet to see where the general consensus pertaining to his all-time ranking truly lies given enough time to properly and fairly reflect on his career and how he measures up to both his peers and contemporaries.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 09-01-2020 at 05:24 AM.

  11. #6776
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    how is this idiocy still going?

    no hate against kobe but this is like comparing mj to iverson... just stop. Its over.

  12. #6777
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    how is this idiocy still going?

    no hate against kobe but this is like comparing mj to iverson... just stop. Its over.
    The difference between LeBron and Kobe is a lot closer than the difference between LeBron and Jordan. Not really an insult to either Kobe or LeBron at all. Jordan is just that much ahead of the rest of the pack.

    Better watch what you say about Iverson. Some of his fanboys are rabid. Don't know if there are that many on here, but the ones I have encountered; oh boy. You might as well have stuck your you know what in a beehive with what you just said.

    Iverson was not really all that bad like you are making him out anyways. He was just really limited by his size. That and he came from the "Hero Ball Era". He honestly must have been about 5'10 and 150 at most. I think honestly, you are tremendously overrating LeBron here. In hindsight, I think we will all look back a few years after he retires and realize how much he was overrated. I mean, he was one Ray Allen shot and a Draymond Green suspension away from being 1-8 in the NBA Finals. There is even a small chance he doesn't even get that one had they called that foul on him against Durant at the end of game 2 in the 2012 NBA Finals. LeBron is truly talented and a superior athlete, but his lack of understanding the nuances of the more complex elements of the team concept and over inflated hubris have been his achilles heel throughout his tenure in the NBA for the most part. Some of you may not like to hear all that, but oh well it is what it is. I'm not here to make friends. Just to spit the truth as I see it.

  13. #6778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    The difference between LeBron and Kobe is a lot closer than the difference between LeBron and Jordan. Not really an insult to either Kobe or LeBron at all. Jordan is just that much ahead of the rest of the pack.

    Better watch what you say about Iverson. Some of his fanboys are rabid. Don't know if there are that many on here, but the ones I have encountered; oh boy. You might as well have stuck your you know what in a beehive with what you just said.

    Iverson was not really all that bad like you are making him out anyways. He was just really limited by his size. That and he came from the "Hero Ball Era". He honestly must have been about 5'10 and 150 at most. I think honestly, you are tremendously overrating LeBron here. In hindsight, I think we will all look back a few years after he retires and realize how much he was overrated. I mean, he was one Ray Allen shot and a Draymond Green suspension away from being 1-8 in the NBA Finals. There is even a small chance he doesn't even get that one had they called that foul on him against Durant at the end of game 2 in the 2012 NBA Finals. LeBron is truly talented and a superior athlete, but his lack of understanding the nuances of the more complex elements of the team concept and over inflated hubris have been his achilles heel throughout his tenure in the NBA for the most part. Some of you may not like to hear all that, but oh well it is what it is. I'm not here to make friends. Just to spit the truth as I see it.
    This seems ironic in a thread talking about Kobe with a bunch of Kobe fanboys.

  14. #6779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Imho, I think he was more amenable to functioning as a cog in a greater more team oriented system when he was hunting those first few championships and after his great failure back in 2011. *Being more humbled, he put his faith more in Riley and therefore in Spo. *After he got the proverbial monkey off his back, his focus began to shift on chasing that Jordan legacy and he knew he needed to win with big numbers to do so. *Though we musn't forget how much tension LeBron has had with his coaches over the years. *The shoulder bump with Spo being a prime example fo that. *Of course this is only my personal observation. *

    Not sure why LeBron changed up his style of play so much this year. *Maybe he is being mentored by Magic on the side a bit, or perhaps he has matured and realizes that his team has the best chance of winning if he focuses more on playmaking so that they can get the full benefit of Anthony Davis's presence on that team. *It wouldn't be such a stretch to believe that he listens to his naysayers and adjusts his game accordingly. *I have noticed over the years that he does change things up to prove his critics wrong. *One of the things I respect about him. *
    *
    He also has a system in place for first time in his career really and talent around him to do so, he has been that way his entire career shifting based on his surroundings etc. as has been noted. He changed his style in part due to decline and in part due to the lack of playmaking outside himself on the team and AD as you mention already capable as high scorer/more of finisher*anyways. Plenty of players have tension with coaches and players look at Kobe Phil. Kobe Shaq. Jordan punched kerr.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    LeBron played his best D from 09-13 imho. *He began to slow down a bit in 2014, especially in the post season. *Still he was one of the best defenders in the league at the time. *Wade had fallen off a cliff defensively that is for certain. *Still, Manu, Parker, and Duncan were less than the year before as well and Kawhi was far from the Kawhi we see today. *It's just that they were on a quest for vengeance because they believed they let one slip through their fingers the year before. *I agree they did as well. *They definitely lost it more than the Heat won it. *I digress. *Wade's usage wasn't all that high in the NBA Finals that year where his efficiency or lack there of would have been the primary cause of them receiving the throttling that they did. *It was primarily a motivational issue as was stated my many on that team and in the locker room. *LeBron I believe padded his numbers in blowout situations (that can be factually backed up) to avoid further degradation from his critics. *
    *
    I mean sure, he was a falling off a little but still one of the best defenders in the league. The rest of the team was the clear issue as was covered multiple ways. Wade's usage in the finals was higher than the previous year in the playoffs and even right about his average for 2014 playoffs too. He was very high volume*and only behind Lebron, his usage is closer to him than Bosh for the series who was far more efficient. Again it isn't just one thing, Wade's drop off is why they fell a little offensively for the series. The team as a whole had dropped off defensively and it showed clearly when Lebron went out game 1 as noted close and Spurs destroyed them final 4 mins. You keep saying it was motivational without acknowleding*any of the actual context/stats/articales/data provided lol. This is where one person solely has their subjective on something we have no idea about like motivation and everything else points to something different essentially.*


    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    **
    It all depends on how much you value leadership or how much you believe a players impact can be quantified by it. *It is therefore impossible to quantify. *Though if you have been a part of any basketball team whether organized or not, you should have a great understanding of just how valuable leadership can be. *Imho, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird are the greatest individual leaders of All-Time. *I hold leadership in very high regard, though as I said, I can't quantify it for you. *You just have to listen to the players on their teams and watch how much they respected them in interviews. *Also, watch how well the offense flows with them in the game and how well the team performs with them on the floor, rather than off the floor. *Have you ever heard a Larry Bird led team complain about a lack of motivation? *He would surely call them a bunch of sissies.
    *
    If you have been a part of multiple sports and teams over your life you would know leadership comes in all sorts of ways and sizes and just because someone leads one group well does not mean it translates to another. Listening to players on a team often gives a very distorted interpretation, especially when talking about top talents. I know tons of players who even without the media wouldn't speak their mind to others about a top athlete they played with. Also different players have different opinions. I do agree if you get this full consensus with no issues in the past sure but I mean we covered Kobe and phil/Shaq then also demanding trade or Jordan punching teammate and other stories of his past. No one sits there and focuses on something like this so subjective in any discussion I have seen on players unless it's basically all they have (because the context/articles/stats laid out point a different way). I have seen tons of leaders that aren't remotely the best player, in fact I would say that often has been the more leader types throughout my experiences. Top athletes are amazing but the attitudes that come with often aren't the kind you want leading either way (vet leadership often mentioned for this reason).*


    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    **
    I believe Bill Russell's impact is pretty tough to deny. *11 titles in 13 seasons and he was always the constant. *When he left the organization, they went into a temporary dark abyss for almost a decade until Larry Bird got there. *He was even the first and only player coach for 3 seasons I believe and won 2 titles in that span. *You can correct me if I'm wrong on that one because I'm not 100% sure of the exact number of years and or titles. *Though for an organization to let a player have that kind of control (control even "Coach LeBron" has never even gotten with all his influence) says a lot about how much faith they had in him and his bb IQ. *That is the ultimate leadership if you ask me. *Something again, I value tremendously.*

    It is not a sin to have LeBron in the 7-11 range. *It is impossible to determine a fair ranking for him when he is still playing due to recency bias and especially with how many both fanboys and haters he has. *We have yet to see where the general consensus pertaining to his all-time ranking truly lies given enough time to properly and fairly reflect on his career and how he measures up to both his peers and contemporaries.
    I agree which is why I pushed for him early in that poll like I mentioned, it isn't just leadership though. It's that he is one of the best defenders of all time and was a pretty good playmaker/scorer from the position as well. I don't think he is top 5 all time though if that is what you are getting at. It also says a lot about how different the era was and how much the game has grown over time, arguably more than anything else actually he had such position (not only one and many weren't atg's like him).*

    It isn't a sin, it just often can't be explained without focusing on extremely subjective measures like leadership and largely ignoring most stats/context/data/articles provided. That's what I was noting*before what we usually see on here with people doing so. You seem more reasonable so don't get me too wrong but I don't think you really address the articles/stats/data pointing to where the real issues lied it was brushed off to just talk about this. I never see people do this with Kobe or Jordan or others who also would have questionable issues in their past pretty clearly evident nor do most trying to make a point ignore context/stats/articles laying out far more important issues with a team or individual on said team than this measure.*

    It won't erase what he has already done and to most people I have discussed/seen talk about basketball over recent years has him top 5 based on that (whether it be this thread, peak poll having him 2, other large basketball poll doing so or other forums I have frequented). He doesn't really need more time given that but waiting to see if everyone drops him is fine if you want.

  15. #6780
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    Quote Originally Posted by GB1977 View Post
    For me it's absolutely Kobe. I prefer his style, although he wasn't passing the ball much Lebron is also really good, but I'm not such a fan of his, plus he got involved in politics. Nobody asked him for his opinion.
    a chicago fan that doesnt like lebron.................. shocker.

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