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  1. #6451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not even arguing that LBJ shouldn't have the ball more than a lot of guys, but that is also going to lead to him having inflated numbers compared to those other guys. I'm really not sure why this is in the least bit controversial. This is a point that just about any objective person should agree with.
    It's not, the entire point you clearly aren't reading is this is true of players in general. The better one's will dominate the ball more and have the best stats. Their production isn't inflated because they are great and have the ball while deserving it while winning as the best players on the planet lol. I am not even sure how this has gone so far without you acknowledging this and how you are only using it against Lebron despite others having dominated too as covered.

    You have never separated on what the big gap between him and say Kobe is in any way though. You just keep ignoring my point and never going any further, per usual it's the most basic concept ignore what I say then play these games. Jordan dominated the ball plenty. Usage he often lead the league as he did in FGA in a season multiple times and so on. His numbers were inflated too I guess using your logic because he dominated the ball. It's just odd as I don't hear most say stuff like this and you only bring it up one way here for Lebron without comparison or legitimate context just say it means we can't use numbers (despite having constantly ignored clear inflation on bad teams in context to push numbers when convenient lolol).

  2. #6452
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You: Kobe could handle being the #1 he just had Shaq etc.
    Me: alright but what about when he got more focus
    You: Well they had no depth so teams could focus on him
    Me: Alright but Shaq was doing great and the entire point I was making is he dropped off when getting more attention and benefitted from not gettind said attention early (in part due to Shaq's dominance).
    You: You don't get it these role players are everything and it was the Pistons (never addresses anything about how Shaq played or potentially playing more through him or any of the stats covered previously about the drop off with this attention making the point more clear and so on).

    I get it, everything that doesn't just agree with your narratives is absurd. Been here before will be here again next time someone questions the craziness.

    I literally broke down how much Love got the ball in 14 with the tracking data and you ignored it. I pointed out the Adelman system we ran and so on too, ignored. Like I said you just repeat your points while ignoring everything else brought up over and over and over there is no point it's not a genuine conversation. I have looked at that all and I even explained it makes sense that a playmaker will have the ball more than a big man getting the ball in the best spot by offensive design (check out Rubio our playmakers tracking data as he set it up often). Lebron does bring the ball up the court at times but more importantly he gets it often in many spots within the offense to evaluate and play make for the team by making a move like I keep saying (which is what superstars like this do), the data doesn't show him just dribbling to get stats and it isn't on losing teams or with the issues in data/context/winning I have pointed out for Love. You never have addressed any of this though but feel free to start if you actually wanna discuss this. As to your hypothetical what if, we already have seen you are so biased they always go the same way so let's stick with what actually has happened and we can break down (we have trouble just doing any of that).
    It's not that the role payers are everything. It's that when a team has no depth, an injury to the 3rd best player is going to greatly impact the team. Sure, if those teams had decent depth it wouldnt make all that much of a difference but they didnt. I'm not saying that kobe couldn't have played better in those series, but you're way downplaying the impact that those injuries had.

  3. #6453
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It's not, the entire point you clearly aren't reading is this is true of players in general. The better one's will dominate the ball more and have the best stats. Their production isn't inflated because they are great and have the ball while deserving it while winning as the best players on the planet lol. I am not even sure how this has gone so far without you acknowledging this and how you are only using it against Lebron despite others having dominated too as covered.

    You have never separated on what the big gap between him and say Kobe is in any way though. You just keep ignoring my point and never going any further, per usual it's the most basic concept ignore what I say then play these games. Jordan dominated the ball plenty. Usage he often lead the league as he did in FGA in a season multiple times and so on. His numbers were inflated too I guess using your logic because he dominated the ball. It's just odd as I don't hear most say stuff like this and you only bring it up one way here for Lebron without comparison or legitimate context just say it means we can't use numbers (despite having constantly ignored clear inflation on bad teams in context to push numbers when convenient lolol).
    Kobe didnt play the style of play that LBJ played. I've been making this point about LBJ going back to his early days in Cleveland. Kobe played in the triangle almost his entire career and didnt typically have the ball to the same extent as LBJ has (you're right, it's because of their different skillsets, but that doesn't change that having the ball more will lead to more inflated stats). We can compare their numbers, just so long as we're accounting for this and that it's being accounted for in the right way.

  4. #6454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's not that the role payers are everything. It's that when a team has no depth, an injury to the 3rd best player is going to greatly impact the team. Sure, if those teams had decent depth it wouldnt make all that much of a difference but they didnt. I'm not saying that kobe couldn't have played better in those series, but you're way downplaying the impact that those injuries had.
    You don't need more depth to play more through the most efficient player who is also a star, you need a star capable of making the right plays and doing so as the #1 (like Shaq did at times with Kobe). You can ignore this all you want but anyone who watched in 04 knows it was a lower point for Kobe for some of these reasons and I think Chronz mentioned that was what Phil/Lakers wanted to do as well. Those injuries did not force Kobe to play the way he did or as poorly as he did. As shown as he got more attention in general in these series the efficiency dropped, it was 01 when he wasn't getting said attention yet and becoming a star that he put up best numbers but the context as I repeatedly say shows as he became the 1 and got more attention it dropped off in those series covered.

    Those injuries can have decent impact on the team and it doesn't change some of the issues I have been pointing to either way. Sure it makes them losing more of a ? but the point has always been about Kobe not being the #1 option and how he gained that attention over time in the playoffs and we saw efficiency drop off in turn the more he got (even with Shaq dominating because Kobe wasn't necessarily a great 1 yet tbh he had to learn more imo, certainly not all time great top 10 level multiple years before this either which is why the rings are different to most as is the overall point in this breakdown).

  5. #6455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe didnt play the style of play that LBJ played. I've been making this point about LBJ going back to his early days in Cleveland. Kobe played in the triangle almost his entire career and didnt typically have the ball to the same extent as LBJ has (you're right, it's because of their different skillsets, but that doesn't change that having the ball more will lead to more inflated stats). We can compare their numbers, just so long as we're accounting for this and that it's being accounted for in the right way.
    Exactly, Lebron has a broader offensive skill set with his play making and it resulted in him having better stats. Just like he had better stats than Ray Allen for similar reasons I guess or other scorers. When it comes to Jordan he doesn't have better stats though because that is someone more on his level over his career (even he's a bit below him this is more the range).

    Lebron's days in Cleveland early are different than Heat which are different than Cavs which are different than Lakers. Lebron has played many different ways over time with different types of teams/talent. In fact 2014 if you look his touches are a bit different in the 70's (below say Klove like I said before haha and not far off from Kobe's 6 game stint as an old man either in touches actually). I am not sure how you have accounted for Kobe's ball dominance and so on at all so how are you comparing their domination numbers and the inflation has been my question?
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-19-2020 at 02:33 AM.

  6. #6456
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You don't need more depth to play more through the most efficient player who is also a star, you need a star capable of making the right plays and doing so as the #1 (like Shaq did at times with Kobe). You can ignore this all you want but anyone who watched in 04 knows it was a lower point for Kobe for some of these reasons and I think Chronz mentioned that was what Phil/Lakers wanted to do as well. Those injuries did not force Kobe to play the way he did or as poorly as he did. As shown as he got more attention in general in these series the efficiency dropped, it was 01 when he wasn't getting said attention yet and becoming a star that he put up best numbers but the context as I repeatedly say shows as he became the 1 and got more attention it dropped off in those series covered.

    Those injuries can have decent impact on the team and it doesn't change some of the issues I have been pointing to either way. Sure it makes them losing more of a ? but the point has always been about Kobe not being the #1 option and how he gained that attention over time in the playoffs and we saw efficiency drop off in turn the more he got (even with Shaq dominating because Kobe wasn't necessarily a great 1 yet tbh he had to learn more imo, certainly not all time great top 10 level multiple years before this either which is why the rings are different to most as is the overall point in this breakdown).
    I didn't say that kobe was blameless here, but there was a massive difference between the spurs series that year (who were probably better than the pistons) when the lakers had a relatively healthy Malone and from the pistons series, when Malone was out and the defense completely focused on kobe and ignored all other perimeter players. Again, kobe could have played better, but the injury to Malone had a major impact on how the defense played kobe. Other guys were getting wide open looks and they simply couldn't make them. If they were making those shots, that series turns out differently and the defense would have to adjust and wouldnt be able to play Kobe like that.

  7. #6457
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Exactly, Lebron has a broader offensive skill set with his play making and it resulted in him having better stats. Just like he had better stats than Ray Allen for similar reasons I guess or other scorers. When it comes to Jordan he doesn't have better stats though because that is someone more on his level over his career (even he's a bit below him this is more the range).

    Lebron's days in Cleveland early are different than Heat which are different than Cavs which are different than Lakers. Lebron has played many different ways over time with different types of teams/talent. In fact 2014 if you look his touches are a bit different in the 70's (below say Klove like I said before haha). I am not sure how you have accounted for Kobe's ball dominance and so on at all so how are you comparing their domination numbers and the inflation has been my question?
    Definitely doesn't have a broader offensive skillset. He's a better playmaker, but nowhere near the offensive threat that kobe was. LBJ just has the ball a lot more. Yes, his role has changed throughout, but he's still remained a highly ball dominant playmaker. He's among the league leaders here in having the ball despite not bringing up the court like those that are in the same range of having the ball. I'm not accounting for ball dominance in comparing their numbers, because this is a relatively new stat and so there isn't good data on how much kobe had the ball (at least that im aware of), but im saying that this is what we need to be able to make a more fair comparison of their numbers.

  8. #6458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I didn't say that kobe was blameless here, but there was a massive difference between the spurs series that year (who were probably better than the pistons) when the lakers had a relatively healthy Malone and from the pistons series, when Malone was out and the defense completely focused on kobe and ignored all other perimeter players. Again, kobe could have played better, but the injury to Malone had a major impact on how the defense played kobe. Other guys were getting wide open looks and they simply couldn't make them. If they were making those shots, that series turns out differently and the defense would have to adjust and wouldnt be able to play Kobe like that.
    Of course but the thing is defenses play the #1's in different ways and make them react and so on. He did very poorly trying to overly be the man despite this because he just wasn't quite ready. I don't think they did get a bunch of wide open shots and it was a bunch of misses, the issue is they weren't moving it around like they should have been in general and Kobe often settled for bad shots even. The defense should have played Kobe tough like that because it clearly worked on him at the time and he wasn't gonna give it to the guy playing better when he wanted that spot.

    Either way like I keep getting at the point about where Kobe was at the time still stands and the blame he deserves here is part of what helps show that. Especially in those earlier rings when Shaq was taking even more of the attention at his peak too. That's a major difference in context and the issues he had individually show he needed to grow still.

  9. #6459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Definitely doesn't have a broader offensive skillset. He's a better playmaker, but nowhere near the offensive threat that kobe was. LBJ just has the ball a lot more. Yes, his role has changed throughout, but he's still remained a highly ball dominant playmaker. He's among the league leaders here in having the ball despite not bringing up the court like those that are in the same range of having the ball. I'm not accounting for ball dominance in comparing their numbers, because this is a relatively new stat and so there isn't good data on how much kobe had the ball (at least that im aware of), but im saying that this is what we need to be able to make a more fair comparison of their numbers.
    That with his play making is part of the sentence there haha, I was saying as a playmaker. Scoring wise of course Kobe has the more diverse skillset there. Offensive threat is all around and Lebron's athletecism/playmaking/handling allowed him to score at a great and efficient rate on top of the playmaking even if not as technically skilled (as the stats show). Kobe was the better scorer but Lebrons overall ability to create and do so in multiple ways/offenses/teammates and so on has been shown in his career.

    So the point then is that needs to be true of everyone. You can't just ignore sometimes when someone has a difference in this stuff and then push stats in others while doing this when you want at others. There needs to be consistency if ball domination and how much you have the ball matters and needs to be compared it does for all. I already showed Love hit crazy high touch numbers for a big in 14 inflating those stats multiple times for example now.

  10. #6460
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Of course but the thing is defenses play the #1's in different ways and make them react and so on. He did very poorly trying to overly be the man despite this because he just wasn't quite ready. I don't think they did get a bunch of wide open shots and it was a bunch of misses, the issue is they weren't moving it around like they should have been in general and Kobe often settled for bad shots even. The defense should have played Kobe tough like that because it clearly worked on him at the time and he wasn't gonna give it to the guy playing better when he wanted that spot.

    Either way like I keep getting at the point about where Kobe was at the time still stands and the blame he deserves here is part of what helps show that. Especially in those earlier rings when Shaq was taking even more of the attention at his peak too. That's a major difference in context and the issues he had individually show he needed to grow still.
    I never said that he was the perfect player, but it took a very specific set of circumstances to show that he needed to grow. If those injuries don't occur, then that likely doesn't materialize. My point is that those injuries contributed a decent amount to both his production and the outcomes of those series.

  11. #6461
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    That with his play making is part of the sentence there haha, I was saying as a playmaker. Scoring wise of course Kobe has the more diverse skillset there. Offensive threat is all around and Lebron's athletecism/playmaking/handling allowed him to score at a great and efficient rate on top of the playmaking even if not as technically skilled (as the stats show). Kobe was the better scorer but Lebrons overall ability to create and do so in multiple ways/offenses/teammates and so on has been shown in his career.

    So the point then is that needs to be true of everyone. You can't just ignore sometimes when someone has a difference in this stuff and then push stats in others while doing this when you want at others. There needs to be consistency if ball domination and how much you have the ball matters and needs to be compared it does for all. I already showed Love hit crazy high touch numbers for a big in 14 inflating those stats multiple times for example now.
    I never said that Love didnt put up inflated numbers, but it wasn't anymore than what most other stars get. My positioning regard to LBJ is that because LBJ has the ball so much, that his numbers are inflated to a greater extent for him than for most others. I agree that stars have inflated numbers and obviously this would apply to love as well, but my point is that LBJ gets a lot more opportunities than most others, so that's going inflate his numbers more than those other stars. It's simply something that needs to be accounted for if we're going to compare stats. We can't really do this for kobe and LBJ because of the lack of data, but it can be done when comparing LBJ to more recent players. It is something that needs to be accounted for and this is why I brought this up when you said LBJ has better stats.

  12. #6462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I never said that he was the perfect player, but it took a very specific set of circumstances to show that he needed to grow. If those injuries don't occur, then that likely doesn't materialize. My point is that those injuries contributed a decent amount to both his production and the outcomes of those series.
    He also was in one of the rarest positions ever next to a peak Shaq is the point people make in context with the rings then in the same way (and then in 04 a just about leaving prime version, he had a few good years and won as the 2 with a young Wade though). I think they contributed some but it just furthers my point because again he had Shaq, there was options he just chose to take on that defense himself moreso. It did take him not having peak Shaq in great conditions as the #1 to force him into that role and show he had some flaws still in doing so.

    He was still a great player but his role/context is different just like the injuries to role players and so on factor into context too and add some attention (but don't change the overall point or issues exposed over those years and the dropping in efficiency not just once but in the multiple ways shown as attention added for various reasons including injuries). The overall context is what makes the first 3 different than the last 2 (sure each of those first 3's had varying levels but none were him as that same guy yet nor like top 10 ATG level yet leading the way as I have been saying).

  13. #6463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I never said that Love didnt put up inflated numbers, but it wasn't anymore than what most other stars get. My positioning regard to LBJ is that because LBJ has the ball so much, that his numbers are inflated to a greater extent for him than for most others. I agree that stars have inflated numbers and obviously this would apply to love as well, but my point is that LBJ gets a lot more opportunities than most others, so that's going inflate his numbers more than those other stars. It's simply something that needs to be accounted for if we're going to compare stats. We can't really do this for kobe and LBJ because of the lack of data, but it can be done when comparing LBJ to more recent players. It is something that needs to be accounted for and this is why I brought this up when you said LBJ has better stats.
    What do you mean by that? The comparison was to Gasol (not being a superstar) and Pippen in general when shared earlier. You already said he was more ball dominant than Gasol though I think more recently kinda going against being able to use them and just haven't seen the explanation how you can compare (similar to Bosh). I also just pointed out how in 2014 Love had more touches than Lebron and I have broken down that situation enough.

    We can't do this for a lot of the people you have compared so far with stats and sometimes even Love has more touches in the years you have propped but you have used stats when convenient is the point. It is a double standard. I am not saying you can't have the idea it needs to be accounted for it just contradicts some of your past posts/arguments using stats in this way then (because you pick and choose when you can use them not based on this standard/breakdown normally except for Lebron).

  14. #6464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The point is that it's not just that he had added attention, it's that those injuries made it a lot easier for the defense to guard kobe than it would have otherwise been. You also simply kept pointing out how kobe didnt get it done when he became the main guy but completely ignored the injuries. Also ignores the trivial impact on the game that these differences you keep alluding to actually have on the game. You just keep pointlessly repeating the same thing over and over again. so im sure you'll respond with the same think and repeat it again and again.

    Being more of a playmaker is fine, it's just going to lead to inflated statistics when compared to guys who dont have the ball that much so when making a comparison to those other guys that needs to get accounted for. Now do I believe that this is a winning strategy? No, absolutely not, at least not against elite teams. All you've provided here is opinion, biased opinion that is so good job. Posters disagree theyre biased, but those who do agree are not. The players disagree? of course, you question whether theyre biased. The only ones who aren't biased are those who back up your group think ideas. You're not providing anything here other than you're own biased ideas, which are basically what the group in here thinks. No form of creative or independent thought. You basically regurgitate the same talking points over and over again, without realizing that theyre simply youre opinion and carry no real merit.
    So is kobe stats inflated to that of Ray Allen, Manu, etc? Why do you always discredit Lebron and priase Kobe for doing the same thing? Dude everyone know Kobe was not ready to lead at that time too. Kobe was a player that stuck to himself. The rape thing even further his isolation and was work in progress. Kobe would keep shooting while missing and taking tough shots vs letting the game come to him. Why do you think Kobe got labled a ball hog? Why do you think it was said he would stunt Russell, Randle etc growth? Was kobe stats also inflated by trying to reach career averages on a nightly bases? Its not like Kobe would be good with 15ppg as long as the team won right? So what exactly do you mean by inflated stats? Dude its common Knowledge Kobe was trying to be like MJ or better and was not just playing in a system in flow and stumbled on those stats. Dude was going to get his numbers.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-19-2020 at 04:57 AM.

  15. #6465
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    I wonder If I could use the argument that Peyton Manning/Drew Brees/Tom Brady (ect) stats are inflated bc they were allowed to throw more bc they were great at throwing the football?
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