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  1. #6436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You acknowledged it after I pointed it out multiple times and then downplayed it completely, which I just can't agree with. I'm not arguing against LBJ being a superstar, im simply saying that his numbers are inflated compared to someone like kobe because of how much LBJ has the ball. It's not like im saying LBJ has inflated stats so he's not a superstar. His number are inflated in comparison to guys who dont have the ball as much.
    why are you ingnoring facts and sprewing faults imformation.

  2. #6437
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    The point is that it's not just that he had added attention, it's that those injuries made it a lot easier for the defense to guard kobe than it would have otherwise been. You also simply kept pointing out how kobe didnt get it done when he became the main guy but completely ignored the injuries. Also ignores the trivial impact on the game that these differences you keep alluding to actually have on the game. You just keep pointlessly repeating the same thing over and over again. so im sure you'll respond with the same think and repeat it again and again.

    Being more of a playmaker is fine, it's just going to lead to inflated statistics when compared to guys who dont have the ball that much so when making a comparison to those other guys that needs to get accounted for. Now do I believe that this is a winning strategy? No, absolutely not, at least not against elite teams. All you've provided here is opinion, biased opinion that is so good job. Posters disagree theyre biased, but those who do agree are not. The players disagree? of course, you question whether theyre biased. The only ones who aren't biased are those who back up your group think ideas. You're not providing anything here other than you're own biased ideas, which are basically what the group in here thinks. No form of creative or independent thought. You basically regurgitate the same talking points over and over again, without realizing that theyre simply youre opinion and carry no real merit.

  3. #6438
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    why are you ingnoring facts and sprewing faults imformation.
    What am I ignoring and what faulty information am I spreading?

  4. #6439
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    As was covered when you brought it up mentioning how it meant more attention could be focused on Kobe I pointed out yes that was my point anyways which is why there wasn't a need to focus on it since it fits right in with what I was saying and I provided the data and so on with it too. This just helped show how even with Shaq killing it still Kobe as the #1 individually fell off, the injuries leading to him getting more attention fits with me saying this was the year (along with 03) he was arguably receiving the most attention and this type of drop happened. We have been through this already when I explained it out before. You don't have to agree with me but it was clearly laid out and acknowledged unlike the hypocrisy in you applying stats.

    I have been responding by pointing out that Lebron is more of a play maker for the team so that isn't inflation it is due to his talent/skill set and is beneficial overall. I have given examples like Love of what inflation on a bad team looks like plenty but you use stats for him while ignoring these despite this clear issue. It is different when we are talking star players creating for their teams as the #1 on the way to championships and so on. Lebron is not the same type of player is the key reason there would be this difference but he isn't dribbling the ball and so on as I covered with the tracking data and him not being at the top get into.

    You just keep repeating the same opinion with out any legitimate reasoning as to why this would be a bad thing and not just like any other star getting the ball more because they are the best player on the planet and it helps their team to get them the ball to create (with their different styles which sure a playmaker might get it a little more than an iso/1v1 guard who also usually has great frontcourt to rely on inside out). That doesn't ever explain what has inflated his numbers making them not as valuable as other greats... That he was this talented and could do it/handle it while winning titles?
    Laughable post with the same nonsense reacted over nd over again. Its your opinion and nothing else.

  5. #6440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The point is that it's not just that he had added attention, it's that those injuries made it a lot easier for the defense to guard kobe than it would have otherwise been. You also simply kept pointing out how kobe didnt get it done when he became the main guy but completely ignored the injuries. Also ignores the trivial impact on the game that these differences you keep alluding to actually have on the game. You just keep pointlessly repeating the same thing over and over again. so im sure you'll respond with the same think and repeat it again and again.

    Being more of a playmaker is fine, it's just going to lead to inflated statistics when compared to guys who dont have the ball that much so when making a comparison to those other guys that needs to get accounted for. Now do I believe that this is a winning strategy? No, absolutely not, at least not against elite teams. All you've provided here is opinion, biased opinion that is so good job. Posters disagree theyre biased, but those who do agree are not. The players disagree? of course, you question whether theyre biased. The only ones who aren't biased are those who back up your group think ideas. You're not providing anything here other than you're own biased ideas, which are basically what the group in here thinks. No form of creative or independent thought. You basically regurgitate the same talking points over and over again, without realizing that theyre simply youre opinion and carry no real merit.
    I pointed out his individual drop off and also how they didn't get it done sure but the key aspect has been his individual play and it being when he finally was that #1 in reality not just a claim he maybe could be but we all know Shaq was. I have responded with the data/stats and so on over and over as you question or downplay then you run away from it all to push the same opinions so I repeat myself sure. That is happening again lol congrats.

    I disagree that being a play maker leads to inflated stats. I think being a play maker is beneficial and those stats come because of said talent/skill. I have covered usage and stats but you won't care or acknowledge. I brought up tracking but you don't care about that either or the context behind it and I laid out the numbers for multiple guys. I have constantly referenced stats, data, tracking, articles and so on helping to give my points validity while you provide NOTHING over and over then talk like this. You quite literally have ignored about 10 times now explaining why you can't use inflated stats here but were willing to for other players who dominate the ball more in your comparisons (like Love/Bosh being stars but not Gasol). I mean not only is there no data/stats/articles or anything of the sort it is also the clear hypocrisy over and over and double standards being applied differently when convenient and so on.

    I don't know how many times it has to be explained, the issue is you can't ever defend opinion without more opinion. You run when the arguments clearly can't be defended and pretend like you will break it down later (Klove vs Pippen). You have double standards around using inflated stats as shown with these discussions and data/stats given on each now. You never acknowledge these issues and sometimes deny claims where I need to quote your other posts multiple times before you admit you said it. You can have whatever opinion you want but you can never back it up with anything meaningful is the issue and write off ANYTHING provided against your narratives.

  6. #6441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Laughable post with the same nonsense reacted over nd over again. Its your opinion and nothing else.
    Lol like I said this is what happens when people counter your BS. This is the level of response because ALL you can ever do is repeat the same nonsense no one else would agree with based solely on your opinion while constantly cherry picking when to use data/stats/rings and so on and never being able to explain why in depth.

  7. #6442
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I pointed out his individual drop off and also how they didn't get it done sure but the key aspect has been his individual play and it being when he finally was that #1 in reality not just a claim he maybe could be but we all know Shaq was. I have responded with the data/stats and so on over and over as you question or downplay then you run away from it all to push the same opinions so I repeat myself sure. That is happening again lol congrats.

    I disagree that being a play maker leads to inflated stats. I think being a play maker is beneficial and those stats come because of said talent/skill. I have covered usage and stats but you won't care or acknowledge. I brought up tracking but you don't care about that either or the context behind it and I laid out the numbers for multiple guys. I have constantly referenced stats, data, tracking, articles and so on helping to give my points validity while you provide NOTHING over and over then talk like this. You quite literally have ignored about 10 times now explaining why you can't use inflated stats here but were willing to for other players who dominate the ball more in your comparisons (like Love/Bosh being stars but not Gasol). I mean not only is there no data/stats/articles or anything of the sort it is also the clear hypocrisy over and over and double standards being applied differently when convenient and so on.

    I don't know how many times it has to be explained, the issue is you can't ever defend opinion without more opinion. You run when the arguments clearly can't be defended and pretend like you will break it down later (Klove vs Pippen). You have double standards around using inflated stats as shown with these discussions and data/stats given on each now. You never acknowledge these issues and sometimes deny claims where I need to quote your other posts multiple times before you admit you said it. You can have whatever opinion you want but you can never back it up with anything meaningful is the issue and write off ANYTHING provided against your narratives.
    The individual drop off is going to be tied to the defense being able to ignore the other players, because they are short handed. What part of that is difficult to understand??? I'm not running away from anything. You're failing to address this and completely ignoring it by saying, no that's not the case. This also ignores that with the exception of the Detroit series, where the amount the defense basically ignored all of the other guys and focused on kobe was insane (cause of how short handed they were), the drop off in efficiency that you keep citing was very, very minimal when translated to an actual in-game impact. You see, this is a rebuttal to your asinine position. You simply ignore stuff like this and keep repeating the same nonsense. You simply fail to recognize that you disagreeing with something doesn't mean your point isn't addressed. And yes, you've responded with things that I consider laughable. However, unlike you, I at least recognize that it is a response (a very poor one, but a response nonetheless).

    You also keep saying that in 01 no one knew kobe could do that in the playoffs so they didnt give him that attention. This has to be one of the most absurd and frankly inept positions I've seen on here. What, kobe didnt just have an entire season where he was a top 5 payer and put up insane numbers??? It's not as if the playoffs was the first time he played as a superstar. He was playing at a super elite level all season long. What kind of asinine argument is this??? Like seriously dude, what is possibly going through your head making such a laughable argument. Sure, if kobe had a pedestrian regular season and then exploded in the playoffs that would make sense, but that wasn't the case. Kobe was a super, duper excellent player the entire season, it's not as if no one had seen him play until the playoffs. Talk about being biased and pushing a narrative. This has to be one of your most laughable takes you've had on here and that's really saying a lot.

    And you can disagree all you want, it's basic mathematics, the more opportunities you have to make a play, the more likely you will be to make a play and so the player that has the ball most will put up inflated stats relative to those who have the ball less. Basic math, disagree all you want, it is what it is. You see, that's an actual point and not really a debatable one either. No one is ignoring it, you are simply wrong about that. The opinion is defended, you just either don't get it or disagree.

    Again, all you've basically been doing is repeating the same thing and accusing me of the exact thing you've been doing this entire time. Its laughable dude.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-19-2020 at 01:48 AM.

  8. #6443
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Lol like I said this is what happens when people counter your BS. This is the level of response because ALL you can ever do is repeat the same nonsense no one else would agree with based solely on your opinion while constantly cherry picking when to use data/stats/rings and so on and never being able to explain why in depth.
    You haven't countered anything...tell us more about how having the ball more than everyone else on the court won't lead to inflated numbers. I can't believe anyone would be so dense as to actually make that type of argument in a public forum, sheesh dude talk about being biased...or lacking really, basic reasoning skills. Either way, it's clearly a wrong position that verifiably false and can and has been demonstrated empirically. It's the same exact principle as being a volume scorer that you keep citing. The more shots you take the more likely you are to score. Likewise, the more you have the ball, the more likely you are to get assists and pts. Meaning that the more someone dominates the ball the more their numbers will be inflated. Can't believe you would argue against this given you're previous posts. Except that in this case it doesn't support your position so you're happy to throw that basic logic out the window and push you're narrative.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-19-2020 at 01:38 AM.

  9. #6444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The individual drop off is going to be tied to the defense being able to ignore the other players, because they are short handed. What part of that is difficult to understand??? I'm not running away from anything. You're failing to address this and completely ignoring it by saying, no that's not the case. This also ignores that with the exception of the Detroit series, where the amount the defense basically ignored all of the other guys and focused on kobe was insane (cause of how short handed they were), the drop off in efficiency that you keep citing was very, very minimal when translated to an actual in-game impact. You see, this is a rebuttal to your asinine position. You simply ignore stuff like this and keep repeating the same nonsense. You simply fail to recognize that you disagreeing with something doesn't mean your point isn't addressed. And yes, you've responded with things that I consider laughable. However, unlike you, I at least recognize that it is a response (a very poor one, but a response nonetheless).

    And you can disagree all you want, it's basic mathematics, the more opportunities you have to make a play, the more likely you will be to make a play and so the player that has the ball most will put up inflated stats relative to those who have the ball less. Basic math, disagree all you want, it is what it is. You see, that's an actual point and not really a debatable one either. No one is ignoring it, you are simply wrong about that. The opinion is defended, you just either don't get it or disagree.

    Again, all you've basically been doing is repeating the same thing and accusing me of the exact thing you've been doing this entire time. Its laughable dude.
    Again, Shaq was doing fine and they should have played through him. There was another teammate and it wasn't some scrub role player lol it was freaking SHAQ! I am not failing to address the injury I have repeatedly pointed out they are minor role players and a little more attention hurting Kobe's individual play has been my entire point anyways. I didn't say that wasn't the case, I said it doesn't change anything withing my point or Kobe's individual fall offs in the context I mention with the stats laid out (feel free to go back and quote if you have an issue with how I broke it down before or break it down yourself if you would like, as I keep saying do anything but repeating this BS while ignoring I keep pointing this all out). I have not ignored anything, I have pointed out specifically how his drop off in efficiency in even specific games that were close could easily have been the difference in winning and losing games in these specific series.

    Again, the issue isn't that you don't respond. It's that it is the same tired nonsense ignoring the stats/data/articles/quotes of others/quotes of yourself and so on non stop while running away just to return and play the same games. I agree this whole thing is laughable and it keeps happening from you.

    I agree it is basic mathematics. Just like common basketball sense says the better the player/playmaker the more you want him making plays. The better players will ALL have inflated stats. Some to different degrees based on their different talents and so on sure. You haven't done anything to make a clear point on when you count stats or don't and have been very hypocritical in how you have done so (using inflated stats for guys like Love and never once addressing it after 10 times mentioned now and it being exposed) just like you never could with the ring argument or Pippen over Loved before you said you wouldn't respond till later. That's why I said no more of that BS and running and no more making me quote the same things I already covered or someone else did or you said but here we are you ignoring all my previous breakdowns of those series from before to pretend I haven't covered this all plenty and the context within.

    You seriously have not at all defended the Pippen/Love thing, explained about the hypocrisy of when you used stats and so on at all. That's just false, it hasn't been done and you keep ignoring stuff like that. I am not doing the same things like this.

  10. #6445
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Again, Shaq was doing fine and they should have played through him. There was another teammate and it wasn't some scrub role player lol it was freaking SHAQ! I am not failing to address the injury I have repeatedly pointed out they are minor role players and a little more attention hurting Kobe's individual play has been my entire point anyways. I didn't say that wasn't the case, I said it doesn't change anything withing my point or Kobe's individual fall offs in the context I mention with the stats laid out (feel free to go back and quote if you have an issue with how I broke it down before or break it down yourself if you would like, as I keep saying do anything but repeating this BS while ignoring I keep pointing this all out). I have not ignored anything, I have pointed out specifically how his drop off in efficiency in even specific games that were close could easily have been the difference in winning and losing games in these specific series.

    Again, the issue isn't that you don't respond. It's that it is the same tired nonsense ignoring the stats/data/articles/quotes of others/quotes of yourself and so on non stop while running away just to return and play the same games. I agree this whole thing is laughable and it keeps happening from you.

    I agree it is basic mathematics. Just like common basketball sense says the better the player/playmaker the more you want him making plays. The better players will ALL have inflated stats. Some to different degrees based on their different talents and so on sure. You haven't done anything to make a clear point on when you count stats or don't and have been very hypocritical in how you have done so (using inflated stats for guys like Love and never once addressing it after 10 times mentioned now and it being exposed) just like you never could with the ring argument or Pippen over Loved before you said you wouldn't respond till later. That's why I said no more of that BS and running and no more making me quote the same things I already covered or someone else did or you said but here we are you ignoring all my previous breakdowns of those series from before to pretend I haven't covered this all plenty and the context within.

    You seriously have not at all defended the Pippen/Love thing, explained about the hypocrisy of when you used stats and so on at all. That's just false, it hasn't been done and you keep ignoring stuff like that. I am not doing the same things like this.
    You keep missing that those laker teams had no real depth and so a key role player (which were all basically perimeter guys) leads to the defense being able to really focus in on the kobe there. It's not trivial at all, especially against the pistons. They were freaken playing Slava dude. The pistons were outright letting guys have wide open looks and focusing all of their perimeter defense on kobe. That's not going to be a trivial thing. It's kind of absurd to me that anyone would take that position.

    And I have absolutely explained how it's different for someone like love versus someone like LBJ. Love never got the ball to the extent that LBJ has. Go look at the time of possession that LBJ has the ball and compare that to Love. LBJ is almost exclusively the only non-guard that's always there among the league leaders. This is really important because he doesn't usually bring the ball up the court. PGs do and that leads to them having inflated numbers in terms of how much time they spend with the ball. If LBJ did this, he on every possession, he would likely end up being much higher here. This is the point I've been making about LBJ is that he has more inflated numbers than someone like Kobe because he has the ball so much.

    As to Pippen and Love, Pippen had the ball a lot more than Love because he was a playmaker, especially when MJ was retired. He was the main option, just like Love. It's not like Love was just en elite scorer, he was also an elite rebounder (arguably the best rebounder in the game during that time).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-19-2020 at 02:04 AM.

  11. #6446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You haven't countered anything...tell us more about how having the ball more than everyone else on the court won't lead to inflated numbers. I can't believe anyone would be so dense as to actually make that type of argument in a public forum, sheesh dude talk about being biased...or lacking really, basic reasoning skills. Either way, it's clearly a wrong position that verifiably false and can and has been demonstrated empirically. It's the same exact principle as being a volume scorer that you keep citing. The more shots you take the more likely you are to score. Likewise, the more you have the ball, the more likely you are to get assists and pts. Meaning that the more someone dominates the ball the more their numbers will be inflated. Can't believe you would argue against this given you're previous posts. Except that in this case it doesn't support your position so you're happy to throw that basic logic out the window and push you're narrative.
    It's almost like my point is continually then all stars have inflated numbers cause they have the ball more. You aren't doing anything to separate Lebron on some crazy level compared to others in any way. You just do BS like this. All you can do is call others bias, question their reasoning skills and so on while never addressing any hypocrisy pointed out and repeated or any breakdown of actual bball. It has been clear who doesn't know the game and has been making stuff up this entire time, the one who keeps getting called out for doing so (not just by me many in the thread looking back as well even more than Valade too).

    Except I factor in efficiency too, that is a major one and I also consider context of the team as well like I have broken down for Lebron and Love (you just never actually address the context/team styles and so on running away despite me sharing or quoting valade sharing many articles explaining this or the breakdown of Loves data etc no response from you on this stuff you prefer this type of response right here as you are troll like I have pointed out before). You won't respond to this by breaking any of it down or actually respponding to those basketball points I reference it will be more of the same BS I am sure. I am asking in any way for a bball breakdown response to much of this stuff but you never will because we know your game and it is never about backing up what you say.

    I don't disagree with the general idea here just like I have already explained you just described how the game of basketball works. The better players to make plays for the team and so on will dominate the ball more than lesser ones of course but that is just pointing out Lebrons talent. You haven't broken down what has inflated his numbers in a bad way comparable to these other greats other than that he is a better playmaker and providing one sided numbers with no actual comparison or breakdowns.

  12. #6447
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It's almost like my point is continually then all stars have inflated numbers cause they have the ball more. You aren't doing anything to separate Lebron on some crazy level compared to others in any way. You just do BS like this. All you can do is call others bias, question their reasoning skills and so on while never addressing any hypocrisy pointed out and repeated or any breakdown of actual bball. It has been clear who doesn't know the game and has been making stuff up this entire time, the one who keeps getting called out for doing so (not just by me many in the thread looking back as well even more than Valade too).

    Except I factor in efficiency too, that is a major one and I also consider context of the team as well like I have broken down for Lebron and Love (you just never actually address the context/team styles and so on running away despite me sharing or quoting valade sharing many articles explaining this or the breakdown of Loves data etc no response from you on this stuff you prefer this type of response right here as you are troll like I have pointed out before). You won't respond to this by breaking any of it down or actually respponding to those basketball points I reference it will be more of the same BS I am sure. I am asking in any way for a bball breakdown response to much of this stuff but you never will because we know your game and it is never about backing up what you say.

    I don't disagree with the general idea here just like I have already explained you just described how the game of basketball works. The better players to make plays for the team and so on will dominate the ball more than lesser ones of course but that is just pointing out Lebrons talent. You haven't broken down what has inflated his numbers in a bad way comparable to these other greats other than that he is a better playmaker and providing one sided numbers with no actual comparison or breakdowns.
    Except LBJ has the ball more than those other stars. Almost all of the guys on that list of who has the ball the most are PGs, but those guys bring the ball up the court, LBJ doesn't do this all the time like those guys do, KD, KL, and Giannis for example, don't have the ball nearly as long. So yes, stars are going to have inflated numbers in general, sure. I never said otherwise, what I am saying is that LBJ has it a lot more than guys like Kobe and a lot of other guys so when comparing his numbers to those guys, yes his will be more inflated. This is backed up by the limited data on this. Whether you like that or not is a different story, but that is what it is.

    And this is a break down, you just don't like what it is. You really need to learn to distinguish what you like or agree with from whether it is an actual point or break down. I've explained here why LBJ's numbers are more inflated when compared to other stars (and have done so in other posts as well...and this is a point that many, many on here have agreed with). Whether you agree with it or not is a different story, but it's kind of silly that if you dont agree with something you accuse a poster of not addressing some point or of being biased.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-19-2020 at 02:11 AM.

  13. #6448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You keep missing that those laker teams had no real depth and so a key role player (which were all basically perimeter guys) leads to the defense being able to really focus in on the kobe there. It's not trivial at all, especially against the pistons. They were freaken playing Slava dude. The pistons were outright letting guys have wide open looks and focusing all of their perimeter defense on kobe. That's not going to be a trivial thing. It's kind of absurd to me that anyone would take that position.

    And I have absolutely explained how it's different for someone like love versus someone like LBJ. Love never got the ball to the extent that LBJ has. Go look at the time of possession that LBJ has the ball and compare that to Love. LBJ is almost exclusively the only non-guard that's always there among the league leaders. This is really important because he doesn't usually bring the ball up the court. PGs do and that leads to them having inflated numbers in terms of how much time they spend with the ball. If LBJ did this, he on every possession, he would likely end up being much higher here.
    You: Kobe could handle being the #1 he just had Shaq etc.
    Me: alright but what about when he got more focus
    You: Well they had no depth so teams could focus on him
    Me: Alright but Shaq was doing great and the entire point I was making is he dropped off when getting more attention and benefitted from not gettind said attention early (in part due to Shaq's dominance).
    You: You don't get it these role players are everything and it was the Pistons (never addresses anything about how Shaq played or potentially playing more through him or any of the stats covered previously about the drop off with this attention making the point more clear and so on).

    I get it, everything that doesn't just agree with your narratives is absurd. Been here before will be here again next time someone questions the craziness.

    I literally broke down how much Love got the ball in 14 with the tracking data and you ignored it. I pointed out the Adelman system we ran and so on too, ignored. Like I said you just repeat your points while ignoring everything else brought up over and over and over there is no point it's not a genuine conversation. I have looked at that all and I even explained it makes sense that a playmaker will have the ball more than a big man getting the ball in the best spot by offensive design (check out Rubio our playmakers tracking data as he set it up often). Lebron does bring the ball up the court at times but more importantly he gets it often in many spots within the offense to evaluate and play make for the team by making a move like I keep saying (which is what superstars like this do), the data doesn't show him just dribbling to get stats and it isn't on losing teams or with the issues in data/context/winning I have pointed out for Love. You never have addressed any of this though but feel free to start if you actually wanna discuss this. As to your hypothetical what if, we already have seen you are so biased they always go the same way so let's stick with what actually has happened and we can break down (we have trouble just doing any of that).
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-19-2020 at 02:13 AM.

  14. #6449
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    I'm not even arguing that LBJ shouldn't have the ball more than a lot of guys, but that is also going to lead to him having inflated numbers compared to those other guys. I'm really not sure why this is in the least bit controversial. This is a point that just about any objective person should agree with.

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    Parallel monologues.

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