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  1. #6421
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It was not a great series for him by any means given that efficiency. This doesn't make much sense, you could help anywhere is the point but Shaq was still dominating. Like in 15 finals when Love/Kyrie were out it wasn't harder on the perimeter they packed the paint to stop Lebron from driving since there was far less spacing/perimeter scoring threats. The point is they could help wherever they wanted and Shaq was getting his just fine but Kobe was playing poorly with bad decision making dominating the ball far more than he should. I actually think this is a great example of a series a player did what you are claiming to hate with Lebron and dominated the ball trying to get his stats when the team would have been better off playing inside out and like others mentioned that's what Phil/Lakers had planned but Kobe kinda went against it. These injuries do not excuse his poor play in this manner with a star doing fine next to him still just not being played through as much as he should be in part due to Kobe dominating ball too much. I do agree they focused more attention on Kobe, that's why he needed to make the right play instead of ballhog like he was that series.

    Yes they have, other stars absolutely get it when they want it and so on. Kobe is known more for being able to get the ball and put it up when he wants for example or have freedom to dominate in 04 despite his poor play and another star playing better in the series and so on. We have already covered how Miami offense was created for movement as well over and over but you then say it's irrelevant lol. This is why it matters, it's the reason you keep using to defend others being able to do it. Again most of these greats all time were known as the ones to dominate the ball most and so on MJ too. That's how the game works and you want your best player to do so like I keep saying.
    We disagree that Kobe was being a ball hog that series. You keep ignoring that if fox is there, they likely win and get the 4-peat. Sure, Kobe could've played better, but you completely ignore the major role the injuries played in these outcomes. I don't think Kobe at his very peak would have been able to beat those pistons given the injuries and this is as much as a part of the context as anything you've mentioned but you downplay the injuries and focus on how Kobe could've played better.

    We clearly disagree about this point on how much other all-time greats had the ball. I don't think there has ever been a player who had the ball as much as LBJ for their entire careers. Sure, Harden the last few years, but that hasn't been his entire career. LBJ is usually among the league leaders in touches and having the ball in his hands among non-pgs and is often in the top 20 including pgs. If he brought the ball up the floor on every possession, I think he would likely have led the league in many seasons. We disagree on this point.

    Again, my posts here weren't intended to argue that you're wrong. I've already done that throughout the thread. It's intended to show that us disagreeing is not the same as you saying I'm ignoring stuff and not addressing issues. I am addressing the issues you raise, we just view what happened and the corresponding context completely different.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-18-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  2. #6422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    We disagree that Kobe was being a ball hog that series. You keep ignoring that if fox is there, they likely win and get the 4-peat. Sure, Kobe could've played better, but you completely ignore the major role the injuries played in these outcomes. I don't think Kobe at his very peak would have been able to beat those pistons given the injuries and this is as much as a part of the context as anything you've mentioned but you downplay the injuries and focus on how Kobe could've played better.

    We clearly disagree about this point on how much other all-time greats had the ball. I don't think there has ever been a player who had the ball as much as LBJ for their entire careers. Sure, Harden the last few years, but that hasn't been his entire career. LBJ is usually among the league leaders in touches and having the ball in his hands among non-pgs and is often in the top 20 including pgs. If he brought the ball up the floor on every possession, I think he would likely have led the league in many seasons. We disagree on this point.

    Again, my posts here weren't intended to argue that you're wrong. I've already done that throughout the thread. It's intended to show that us disagreeing is not the same as you saying I'm ignoring stuff and not addressing issues. I am addressing the issues you raise, we just view what happened and the corresponding context completely different.
    You keep ignoring we have no actual idea what happens if Fox is there and use it to excuse his poor play. I am not only focused on the outcomes they are only a part of it, the Detroit series I laid out specifically I think he should have played more inside out and not dominated the ball as much in that post even. I have laid out the numbers a couple of times now and they all point to his issues. I disagree on the outcome if it is peak Kobe instead there but this like what would happen without injuries is hypothetical opinion. I am basing everything on what actually did happen as I keep laying it out and the drops in efficiency and Shaq's play still and so on.

    IF he is only in the top 20 currently for touches then he isn't dominating the ball like we haven't seen before. He isn't even doing it more than others now then and he is the main playmaker on most of his teams and the best scorer so again of course he will dominate it a high amount (just like MJ lead league in usage plenty and tons of FGA and so on during his time). As I stated we can use data like usage but I know you wouldn't because it will hurt your point. Shot attempts and turns and free throws combined per 100? We can cover this in multiple ways but I just don't think you would accept any and you never answer when I ask about these things or what you would accept.

    You haven't ever addressed this in full yet and I have given plenty of articles on the offense or been willing to breakdown USG% or their overall stats and volume in combination some way or anything you would accept but you won't really answer. You already admitted now that Love/Bosh were more ball dominant in part leading to those numbers (at least compared to Gasol just not as much Pippen) you had relied on bad teams and never countered the context covered at all. I still don't think you explained in any way how them dominating more like that isn't an issue in comparison when it is for others you say? We aren't even getting anywhere and you won't give ANYTHING to back it up still, I don't think this is a good job of showing you not ignoring key issues being pointed out. The best you have done is excused Kobe poor play due to others injuries while ignoring the rest of the context I point out and how Shaq didn't drop off like that.

  3. #6423
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You keep ignoring we have no actual idea what happens if Fox is there and use it to excuse his poor play. I am not only focused on the outcomes they are only a part of it, the Detroit series I laid out specifically I think he should have played more inside out and not dominated the ball as much in that post even. I have laid out the numbers a couple of times now and they all point to his issues. I disagree on the outcome if it is peak Kobe instead there but this like what would happen without injuries is hypothetical opinion. I am basing everything on what actually did happen as I keep laying it out and the drops in efficiency and Shaq's play still and so on.

    IF he is only in the top 20 currently for touches then he isn't dominating the ball like we haven't seen before. He isn't even doing it more than others now then and he is the main playmaker on most of his teams and the best scorer so again of course he will dominate it a high amount (just like MJ lead league in usage plenty and tons of FGA and so on during his time). As I stated we can use data like usage but I know you wouldn't because it will hurt your point. Shot attempts and turns and free throws combined per 100? We can cover this in multiple ways but I just don't think you would accept any and you never answer when I ask about these things or what you would accept.

    You haven't ever addressed this in full yet and I have given plenty of articles on the offense or been willing to breakdown USG% or their overall stats and volume in combination some way or anything you would accept but you won't really answer. You already admitted now that Love/Bosh were more ball dominant in part leading to those numbers (at least compared to Gasol just not as much Pippen) you had relied on bad teams and never countered the context covered at all. I still don't think you explained in any way how them dominating more like that isn't an issue in comparison when it is for others you say? We aren't even getting anywhere and you won't give ANYTHING to back it up still, I don't think this is a good job of showing you not ignoring key issues being pointed out. The best you have done is excused Kobe poor play due to others injuries while ignoring the rest of the context I point out and how Shaq didn't drop off like that.
    We disagree that he played poorly in 03. I agree that he played poorly in 04, but the team was greatly depleted and the defense was focusing entirely on him. Look at everyone else's shooting percentage the series, outside of shaq. Easy to focus in on Kobe when no one else can do anything. Could Kobe have played better? Yes. Were the injuries a massive factor that have to be accounted for? Absolutely and anyone who refuses to do this is frankly being super biased or simply doesn't know any better and doesn't know enough about basketball. Either way, I'm not going to respect anyone's opinion who doesn't acknowledge what a major factor those injuries were (especially in 04).

    Those other things you keep wanting to use don't account for someone dribbling around a good chunk of the clock. Presently, LBJ is 6th in the league with time he spends with the ball in his hands. All of the other guys ahead of him are guards except for Doncic. The only real way to look at this number is to look at how much time a guy spends with the ball in his hands. Touches are also a factor, but if a guy has the ball most of the time, touches might be down. There is another way to look at this, which is to actually watch the games.

    As for Bosh/Love, I said that I do not consider them to ball ball dominant players. It's hard to be a ball dominant player when you're not really a guard and don't handle the ball all that well.

    Again, there is not point in continuing to discuss this because we've discussed it already. We view what occurred and the context differently and that bothers you for some reason lol.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-18-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  4. #6424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    We disagree that he played poorly in 03. I agree that he played poorly in 04, but the team was greatly depleted and the defense was focusing entirely on him. Look at everyone else's showing percentage, sides shaq. Easy to focus in on Kobe when no one else can do anything.

    Those other things you keep wanting to use doesn't account for someone dribbling around a good chunk of the clock. Presently, LBJ is 6th in the league with time he spends with the ball in his hands. All of the other guys ahead of him are guards except for Doncic. The only real way to look at this number is to look at how much time a guy spends with the ball in his hands. Touches are also a factor, but if a guy has the ball most of the time, touches might be down. There is another way to look at this, which is to actually watch the games.

    As for Bosh'Love, I said that I do not consider them to ball ball dominant players. It's hard to be a ball dominant player when you're not really a guard.
    Of course which is the entire point. In 01 defenses weren't as focused on him and he went off like I showed. In 04 he was clearly getting the brunt of the attention even if Shaq still dominated and deserved plenty playing at elite level still and he fell off big individually and his decision making hurt the team. Others struggled in part because Kobe was dominating the ball too much when they should have played more through Shaq as I said and made the defense readjust instead of just focusing on Kobe and him not creating very well overall. Shaw isn't no one else and did a lot, shoulda played through him more as I have said how many times.

    Dribbling around a good chunk of the clock? What If I show that Lebron isn't leading the league in avg seconds per touch and often it's around 4-5 seconds per (almost as if he gets it/evaluates, makes a move then dishes or scores or from time to time brings it up the court then starts the offense). IF he just had the ball all game he would lead the league in stuff like that but he normally isn't over 5 let alone like 6 per Harden or Westbrook or Wall have had the last few years (Lilliard and Kemba have been up there too and so on so again he isn't even tops of league currently and this is a more movement based game now as many have covered where 90's was more of that stagnant can clear out and 1v1 etc longer amounts of time part of like why 5 second back to basket rule implemented). I do watch the games plenty which is why I don't see any issues like you keep claiming and why I can reference offense he played in Miami being different and usage or tracking and so on to further back it up along with overall volume and context of era's even. My issue is that you don't really care about ANY of it and will just keep running with this narrative based solely on opinion like I said all along. That's all you can ever provide, Ill add plenty but you even admit it won't matter most of the time to you because anything against your narrative is irrelevant to you.

    They were MORE ball dominant clearly and you even admitted it than one of the people you compared them to. You have claimed Lebron being MORE ball dominant means we can't compare his and Kobe's stats and despite not being able to even back up the dominant part in any way and us disagreeing (unlike where you admitted it for them compared to Gasol already in those numbers). Yet you used those numbers to say some were superstars and others weren't any way which like I said is an obvious double standard.

  5. #6425
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Of course which is the entire point. In 01 defenses weren't as focused on him and he went off like I showed. In 04 he was clearly getting the brunt of the attention even if Shaq still dominated and deserved plenty playing at elite level still and he fell off big individually and his decision making hurt the team. Others struggled in part because Kobe was dominating the ball too much when they should have played more through Shaq as I said and made the defense readjust instead of just focusing on Kobe and him not creating very well overall. Shaw isn't no one else and did a lot, shoulda played through him more as I have said how many times.

    Dribbling around a good chunk of the clock? What If I show that Lebron isn't leading the league in avg seconds per touch and often it's around 4-5 seconds per (almost as if he gets it/evaluates, makes a move then dishes or scores or from time to time brings it up the court then starts the offense). IF he just had the ball all game he would lead the league in stuff like that but he normally isn't over 5 let alone like 6 per Harden or Westbrook or Wall have had the last few years (Lilliard and Kemba have been up there too and so on so again he isn't even tops of league currently and this is a more movement based game now as many have covered where 90's was more of that stagnant can clear out and 1v1 etc longer amounts of time part of like why 5 second back to basket rule implemented). I do watch the games plenty which is why I don't see any issues like you keep claiming and why I can reference offense he played in Miami being different and usage or tracking and so on to further back it up along with overall volume and context of era's even. My issue is that you don't really care about ANY of it and will just keep running with this narrative based solely on opinion like I said all along. That's all you can ever provide, Ill add plenty but you even admit it won't matter most of the time to you because anything against your narrative is irrelevant to you.

    They were MORE ball dominant clearly and you even admitted it than one of the people you compared them to. You have claimed Lebron being MORE ball dominant means we can't compare his and Kobe's stats and despite not being able to even back up the dominant part in any way and us disagreeing (unlike where you admitted it for them compared to Gasol already in those numbers). Yet you used those numbers to say some were superstars and others weren't any way which like I said is an obvious double standard.
    That completely ignores that in 04 he had a perfectly strong series against the spurs, who were arguably better than the pistons, with Malone in the lineup. LBJ is usually in the top 20 of having the ball in his hands, which is kind of crazy because he's not a pg and pg get that number inflated because they bring it up the court almost always. He doesn't have the ball ALL game, he has it an inordinate amount and that inflates his numbers. The data back it up, go ahead and cite whatever you'd like and I will tear it down like I have all of these other numbers you try to cite. Go for it. I know what those numbers are because I've seen them and they show exactly what I just said.

  6. #6426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    That completely ignores that in 04 he had a perfectly strong series against the spurs, who were arguably better than the pistons, with Malone in the lineup. LBJ is usually in the top 20 of having the ball in his hands, which is kind of crazy because he's not a pg and pg get that number inflated because they bring it up the court almost always. He doesn't have the ball ALL game, he has it an inordinate amount and that inflates his numbers. The data back it up, go ahead and cite whatever you'd like and I will tear it down like I have all of these other numbers you try to cite. Go for it. I know what those numbers are because I've seen them and they show exactly what I just said.
    Except as I showed (and restated already) that was also clearly a drop off too in comparison to 01 and not a very good series even if not as horrendous as the Pistons. It still shows a drop off when he got more attention as I was getting at and is just another example. All of this with the other data shown before and so on just continually shows exactly what I was laying out this whole time about how he got more attention and his efficiency dropped in later years compared to when he didn't have as much (like 01 next to peak Shaq taking the brunt) with Detroit being the worst/most obvious and a clear choke.

    Lebron has long been known as the defacto PG and main playmaker on his teams actually, think this is widely known (and again we are talking top 20 in the league currently, let alone some all time massive number lol). I expect greats to have the ball a ton when they are the main playmaker for the team like a Steph or Lebron and so on but it still doesn't make them all Harden). It isn't very crazy at all to have the best player in the league who's skill set allows him to playmaker to do so, as I have been saying teams play to their superstars all the time just like Kobe/MJ. If you are punishing Lebron for being able to handle this role I disagree with you on that being a bad thing, as noted if Kobe were a better decision maker and passer say like in 04 that would greatly benefit the team instead of putting up way too many inefficient shots and not looking to do so enough. He simply has a lot of touches because he is the best player in the game but that is what you expect, as noted he isn't just holding the ball when he gets it he's making a play and moving it along in the offense still. I am not going to spend time looking up numbers or data or articles when you ignore so much of it then state it doesn't matter it's opinion or run from the conversation to say you will break it down after the season and so on like you have already done. It's over, you either provide ANYTHING or just admit all you ever have is opinion while others are open willing to acknowledge the data and so on.

    I see you just ignored the part covering your obvious hypocrisy, typical type of response. Provide nothing, ignore what clearly calls you out and then just demand the other person provide all evidence despite us knowing full well you will never acknowledge articles/stats/data that would go against your narrative as shown. This is what I mean nothing matters to you, it's always your opinion is greater than all evidence, and there are obvious double standards constantly in how you apply your opinions to certain players.

  7. #6427
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Except as I showed (and restated already) that was also clearly a drop off too in comparison to 01 and not a very good series even if not as horrendous as the Pistons. It still shows a drop off when he got more attention as I was getting at and is just another example. All of this with the other data shown before and so on just continually shows exactly what I was laying out this whole time about how he got more attention and his efficiency dropped in later years compared to when he didn't have as much (like 01 next to peak Shaq taking the brunt) with Detroit being the worst/most obvious and a clear choke.

    Lebron has long been known as the defacto PG and main playmaker on his teams actually, think this is widely known (and again we are talking top 20 in the league currently, let alone some all time massive number lol. I expect greats to have the ball a ton when they are the main playmaker for the team like a Steph or Lebron and so on but it still doesn't make them all Harden). It isn't very crazy at all to have the best player in the league who's skill set allows him to playmaker to do so, as I have been saying teams play to their superstars all the time just like Kobe/MJ. If you are punishing Lebron for being able to handle this role I disagree with you on that being a bad thing, as noted if Kobe were a better decision maker and passer say like in 04 that would greatly benefit the team instead of putting up way too many inefficient shots and not looking to do so enough. He simply has a lot of touches because he is the best player in the game but that is what you expect, as noted he isn't just holding the ball when he gets it he's making a play and moving it along in the offense still. I am not going to spend time looking up numbers or data or articles when you ignore so much of it then state it doesn't matter it's opinion or run from the conversation to say you will break it down after the season and so on like you have already done. It's over, you either provide ANYTHING or just admit all you ever have is opinion while others are open willing to acknowledge the data and so on.

    I see you just ignored the part covering your obvious hypocrisy, typical type of response. Provide nothing, ignore what clearly calls you out and then just demand the other person provide all evidence despite us knowing full well you will never acknowledge articles/stats/data that would go against your narrative as shown. This is what I mean nothing matters to you, it's always your opinion is greater than all evidence, and there are obvious double standards constantly in how you apply your opinions to certain players.
    Im referring to the spurs series in 04. That was certainly a strong series. Saying he didn't have as a strong a series as in 01 is meaningless. Some series are better than others. Same applies to LBJ. Again, keep on ignoring the context. I have no respect for your opinion on this matter, because you clearly can't see how having injuries affected all that played out. I doubt you even watched it, if Im being honest. As I said, the limited data clearly back up how ball dominant LBJ is, which is saying something because he's not a pg and doesn't bring it up all the time like those guys.

  8. #6428
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    Yes, LBJ is often the defacto pg, but someone else often brings it up the court so it lops off a good chunk of seconds off of what his time would otherwise be. I also didn't say that it's always a bad thing that LBJ does this, simply that it inflates his numbers because the more you have the ball the more youre going to score and get assists. To his credit yes that's a positive that he makes plays, but it also inflates his production in comparison not just to kobe, but other stars as well.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-18-2020 at 09:56 PM.

  9. #6429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Im referring to the spurs series in 04. That was certainly a strong series. Saying he didn't have as a strong a series as in 01 is meaningless. Some series are better than others. Same applies to LBJ. Again, keep on ignoring the context. I have no respect for your opinion on this matter, because you clearly can't see how having injuries affected all that played out. I doubt you even watched it, if Im being honest. As I said, the limited data clearly back up how ball dominant LBJ is, which is saying something because he's not a pg and doesn't bring it up all the time like those guys.
    I know, I have referenced it and 01 and given the numbers plenty. Kobe put up 26 ppg with solid shooting but nothing special (less efficient overall than say Shaq still). In 01 Kobe had 33 on much better efficiency while Shaq's had dropped off because of how the Spurs played them leaving the perimeter more exposed and Kobe not having been this 2001 version yet/before so why overreact to it yet. They learned after this series for sure but that attention lead to drops like I keep pointing at (02 was mixed with both kinda lower volume and efficiency then 03 Kobe popped back up in volume while Shaq became more efficient kinda reversing the roles a little by then like I said would be first year you can point to with Kobe as main guy getting that #1 type attention from the playoff teams.

    Anyways though the rest of this is all just you exposing yourself further. I literally point out that you haven't responded to clear hypocrisy and you just tell me I haven't watched and you don't respect my opinion lol. You could care less how obviously flawed and hypocritical all of your analysis has been based purely in biased opinion. It doesn't show him as overly dominant for a top play maker at all even just compared to the league today lol. You just keep repeating yourself/opinion like I said despite never providing legitimate evidence.

  10. #6430
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I know, I have referenced it and 01 and given the numbers plenty. Kobe put up 26 ppg with solid shooting but nothing special (less efficient overall than say Shaq still). In 01 Kobe had 33 on much better efficiency while Shaq's had dropped off because of how the Spurs played them leaving the perimeter more exposed and Kobe not having been this 2001 version yet/before so why overreact to it yet. They learned after this series for sure but that attention lead to drops like I keep pointing at (02 was mixed with both kinda lower volume and efficiency then 03 Kobe popped back up in volume while Shaq became more efficient kinda reversing the roles a little by then like I said would be first year you can point to with Kobe as main guy getting that #1 type attention from the playoff teams.

    Anyways though the rest of this is all just you exposing yourself further. I literally point out that you haven't responded to clear hypocrisy and you just tell me I haven't watched and you don't respect my opinion lol. You could care less how obviously flawed and hypocritical all of your analysis has been based purely in biased opinion. It doesn't show him as overly dominant for a top play maker at all even just compared to the league today lol. You just keep repeating yourself/opinion like I said despite never providing legitimate evidence.
    That amounts to you saying he had a better series. Sure, that happens all the time. Not really here nor there. Not sure what hypocrisy you're referring to. The data back it up that LBJ dominates the ball a lot. Not really sure what youre talking about. And yes, I dont respect your opinion on this because you're completely ignoring how big of an impact having those injuries had on those series and on Kobe's production. You downplay it completely. Can't respect that.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-18-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  11. #6431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Im referring to the spurs series in 04. That was certainly a strong series. Saying he didn't have as a strong a series as in 01 is meaningless. Some series are better than others. Same applies to LBJ. Again, keep on ignoring the context. I have no respect for your opinion on this matter, because you clearly can't see how having injuries affected all that played out. I doubt you even watched it, if Im being honest. As I said, the limited data clearly back up how ball dominant LBJ is, which is saying something because he's not a pg and doesn't bring it up all the time like those guys.
    https://www.basketball-reference.com...ct_season.html

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...ct_career.html

    https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...gular%20Season

    https://stats.nba.com/players/usage/...USG_PCT&dir=-1
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-18-2020 at 10:32 PM.

  12. #6432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yes, LBJ is often the defacto pg, but someone else often brings it up the court so it lops off a good chunk of seconds off of what his time would otherwise be. I also didn't say that it's always a bad thing that LBJ does this, simply that it inflates his numbers because the more you have the ball the more youre going to score and get assists. To his credit yes that's a positive that he makes plays, but it also inflates his production in comparison not just to kobe, but other stars as well.
    Yes and as I point out the better the player often the more you want the ball in their hands doing this. Production is inflated when it isn't valuable or just due to the volume and not leading to wins and so on, if he is making plays and it leads to production that is simply a part of his individual talent like any other player. Kobe does not have the same skillset as Lebron but as shown Lebron still did this in a system as the man/#1 option and best player in the world putting up his numbers at times too. They are different but even old Kobe held the ball like over 3.5 seconds per touch (obviously lower volume in his final season and less games 14/15 where it was more like 4.8 but like 40 games combined). This isn't insane if you have played or coached basketball to think a player will hold the ball about 4-5 seconds as the main playmaker or that the best playmaker on the planet (well now maybe arguable if even in discussion but when winning) will be top 20 in the league in touches.

    Having more production because you are creating more for the team and so on is a good thing for a player and when you do it in a system as the #1 on the way to titles it is hard to call it inflated. Inflated is like what Klove did a couple years in his career on a losing team as I mentioned and laid out. He was like top 10 in touches that season as a big man he just held it less (because that offense was designed to keep getting him the ball in advantageous position often via Rubio boosting his efficiency WITHOUT Love needing to create for others in the same manner (he's a great example of extra touches inflating #'s which is why his assists per game were up to 4.4 that season).

  13. #6433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    That amounts to you saying he had a better series. Sure, that happens all the time. Not really here nor there. Not sure what hypocrisy you're referring to. The data back it up that LBJ dominates the ball a lot. Not really sure what youre talking about. And yes, I dont respect your opinion on this because you're completely ignoring how big of an impact having those injuries had on those series and on Kobe's production. You downplay it completely. Can't respect that.
    He had a worse series than 01 but better than Pistons 04, sure. Which fits that in 04 the attention hurt him in comparison to earlier like 01 lol both series were worse and Pistons was just horrible.

    The data doesn't show anything about him inflating his stats or get to how his teams win with him doing so while Harden has it more and never won and so on but was used as an example. He isn't Harden or Kobe/MJ he is his own player and the context is very different in their teams as Valade showed with article on Rockets offense and so on being different. This has been what you pushed without being specific at all just saying he is top 20 as if it is meaningful as a top player/playmaker in the league, you want them having it more as common sense would say. You want these guys with the ball that's why the usage link shared by the other poster has both Kobe and MJ near the top plenty.

    I didn't ignore it completely I have acknowledged it multiple times now and explained how it doesn't change the point of more attention hurting him and so on and kept the conversation going like the first paragraph lol. You have not acknowledged your double standards on using stats to call Love/Bosh superstars and so on despite the inflating numbers for Love while using that as an argument we can't use it for Lebron. Despite the context I keep laying out how one only did it during short period on losing team and so on... That guy who inflated stats was Love but you use his and argue against Lebrons to make claims like superstar level and so on anyways in hypocritical manner.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 06-18-2020 at 10:29 PM.

  14. #6434
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    He had a worse series than 01 but better than Pistons 04, sure. Which fits that in 04 the attention hurt him in comparison to earlier like 01 lol both series were worse and Pistons was just horrible.

    The data doesn't show anything about him inflating his stats or get to how his teams win with him doing so while Harden has it more and never won and so on but was used as an example. He isn't Harden or Kobe/MJ he is his own player and the context is very different in their teams as Valade showed with article on Rockets offense and so on being different. This has been what you pushed without being specific at all just saying he is top 20 as if it is meaningful as a top player/playmaker in the league, you want them having it more as common sense would say. You want these guys with the ball that's why the usage link shared by the other poster has both Kobe and MJ near the top plenty.

    I didn't ignore it completely I have acknowledged it multiple times now and explained how it doesn't change the point of more attention hurting him and so on and kept the conversation going like the first paragraph lol. You have not acknowledged your double standards on using stats to call Love/Bosh superstars and so on despite the inflating numbers for Love while using that as an argument we can't use it for Lebron. Despite the context I keep laying out how one only did it during short period on losing team and so on... That guy who inflated stats was Love but you use his and argue against Lebrons to make claims like superstar level and so on anyways in hypocritical manner.
    You acknowledged it after I pointed it out multiple times and then downplayed it completely, which I just can't agree with. I'm not arguing against LBJ being a superstar, im simply saying that his numbers are inflated compared to someone like kobe because of how much LBJ has the ball. It's not like im saying LBJ has inflated stats so he's not a superstar. His number are inflated in comparison to guys who dont have the ball as much.

  15. #6435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You acknowledged it after I pointed it out multiple times and then downplayed it completely, which I just can't agree with. I'm not arguing against LBJ being a superstar, im simply saying that his numbers are inflated compared to someone like kobe because of how much LBJ has the ball. It's not like im saying LBJ has inflated stats so he's not a superstar. His number are inflated in comparison to guys who dont have the ball as much.
    As was covered when you brought it up mentioning how it meant more attention could be focused on Kobe I pointed out yes that was my point anyways which is why there wasn't a need to focus on it since it fits right in with what I was saying and I provided the data and so on with it too. This just helped show how even with Shaq killing it still Kobe as the #1 individually fell off, the injuries leading to him getting more attention fits with me saying this was the year (along with 03) he was arguably receiving the most attention and this type of drop happened. We have been through this already when I explained it out before. You don't have to agree with me but it was clearly laid out and acknowledged unlike the hypocrisy in you applying stats.

    I have been responding by pointing out that Lebron is more of a play maker for the team so that isn't inflation it is due to his talent/skill set and is beneficial overall. I have given examples like Love of what inflation on a bad team looks like plenty but you use stats for him while ignoring these despite this clear issue. It is different when we are talking star players creating for their teams as the #1 on the way to championships and so on. Lebron is not the same type of player is the key reason there would be this difference but he isn't dribbling the ball and so on as I covered with the tracking data and him not being at the top get into.

    You just keep repeating the same opinion with out any legitimate reasoning as to why this would be a bad thing and not just like any other star getting the ball more because they are the best player on the planet and it helps their team to get them the ball to create (with their different styles which sure a playmaker might get it a little more than an iso/1v1 guard who also usually has great frontcourt to rely on inside out). That doesn't ever explain what has inflated his numbers making them not as valuable as other greats... That he was this talented and could do it/handle it while winning titles?

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