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  1. #5956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Shaq was still a beast, yes, but he really wasn't all that active during that time. He was playing in spurts in most games. I also don't agree that most won't give kobe similar credit for the titles as me. Another poster came on here just a few days ago who was not a laker fan saying that he definitely deserves 4 of the 5 to be treated as they would for any superstar (which is in line with what I've been saying). In the end, the way you're interpreting this context boils down to your opinion, which I clearly disagree with. Kobe wasn't able to get it done as the #1 during that time, in large part because his team was going for a 4-peat, with a somewhat bare roster and a key injury to who was probably their 3rd best player (as Fox missed the entire series). A similar situation ensued in 04 with injuries derailing the team. That's as much a part of the context (if not more so) than then lakers not being able to win a title with kobe as the #1. Many on here might agree with you, but a lot of people will also disagree.
    Haha not at all I think you misremember, he was playing 40mpg and full quarters at a time still come playoffs. Of course it all boils down to opinion that's what this conversation is about but when you look at the overall context it is very clearly different. I am sure some do disagree but the reason he is ranked lower to more people than not overall is likely because more share this opinion with the context/stats/role and so on all factored in instead of having some arbitrary bar and then counting all rings from there as 1 equally. It just doesn't make sense to me but of course we can agree to disagree on this.

  2. #5957
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    2004 was a rough year for kobe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7MSXZdqIpE

    Shaq 2003 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ
    Shaq 2004 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNwbSgKZuE

    I still think they revolved around Shaq. Shaq i think he was over weight but was still a hand full although it was clear he was in decline. Spurs looked like the better team overall in 03. 2004 Lakers had issues. If Karl did not get hurt i think they would have won.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-31-2020 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #5958
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    This is the exact thing I've been talking about but now instead of a one sided but going against Kobe it's a one sided if in favor of LBJ. If LBJ played in the West.....

    Why are you leaving out if Kobe played in the East?

    If Kobe played for the Cavs his 1st seven years he came into the league he would've averaged about 32 PPG but no rings, then went to another team to team up with Bosh and Wade at only 25 years old I could confidently say they would've won at least 2 rings in them 4 years together. Maybe 3 or even all 4. And then went on back to Cleveland when he'd only been 29 years old and team up with Irving and Love, I can say they'd of made the Finals all them years. Winning I can't say, but with the help of the NBA sure.
    if he averages that, it's on like 41% shooting or something

  4. #5959
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  5. #5960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    if he averages that, it's on like 41% shooting or something
    I think he would of avg more points but my only concern would have been the beating his body would of took. Penny got Hurt after Shaq left, Tmac, Grant Hill, Drose, Wade etc are a number or high flying dudes and they all got pretty banged up. In addition to Kobe style he played with a few injures of his own. I will say his finger could of played a part in his % some years not all. Shaq and playing in the triangle helped with the banging .
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-31-2020 at 11:03 PM.

  6. #5961
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Haha not at all I think you misremember, he was playing 40mpg and full quarters at a time still come playoffs. Of course it all boils down to opinion that's what this conversation is about but when you look at the overall context it is very clearly different. I am sure some do disagree but the reason he is ranked lower to more people than not overall is likely because more share this opinion with the context/stats/role and so on all factored in instead of having some arbitrary bar and then counting all rings from there as 1 equally. It just doesn't make sense to me but of course we can agree to disagree on this.
    No, I do remember Shaq playing long minutes, but he wasn't able to play at the same high level for good chunks of the game. I do agree though that we can agree to disagree on this


  7. #5962
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    2004 Kobe against the Pistons was bad for Kobe standers.

    Kobe had a 42 point game and 15 point 4th quarter vs the Spurs in playoffs. No player has ever had more points in game against a Pop/Duncan team. 2004 Kobe was coming off leading the Lakers in scoring for the season and round 1-2.

    Round 3 vs KG and Minnesota. Shaq and Kobe looked like they were going to win the championship after this series. Kobe led the lakers in scoring in this round as well. Shaq was dominant as well. Team looked well balanced with Vets.

    Finals. The only game Lakes won Kobe had 33 points that game. The very next game Kobe had 11 points and Shaq had 14 points which was game 3. Detroit just dominated the Lakers after they look unstoppable. Detroit was just flat out a better team.

  8. #5963
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Haha not at all I think you misremember, he was playing 40mpg and full quarters at a time still come playoffs. Of course it all boils down to opinion that's what this conversation is about but when you look at the overall context it is very clearly different. I am sure some do disagree but the reason he is ranked lower to more people than not overall is likely because more share this opinion with the context/stats/role and so on all factored in instead of having some arbitrary bar and then counting all rings from there as 1 equally. It just doesn't make sense to me but of course we can agree to disagree on this.
    That series, Kobe refused to follow the game plan (his coaching staff has already confirmed this), he was baited right into the Pistons game plan (Chauncey has already confirmed using Kobes incessant thirst for shots against him) and the Lakers wasted some vintage Shaq performances (Phil used this exact phrase IIRC). More important, years later, Kobe was finally able to admit that this loss was "on him". He honestly played worse than guys like Bron and Tmac did against them on their single star squads and much worse than Wade did with an even older/fatter Shaq years later. It was almost as if Kobe refused to walk away without FMVP and it sunk his squad.

    Detroit was better, tho that was in part due to Kobe's decline physically from years prior.

  9. #5964
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    Yep that was a bad season for Kobe. Lots of things went down on the breakup and Kobe was not innocent by any means. When it was all said and done Shaq, Kobe, Malone, phill, Buss was all upset at something or someone. Buss and Jerry picked Kobe being that he was younger and Shaq had begun to break down. Phill no longer wanted to coach Kobe and again Buss chose Kobe over phill.

    Kobe was not in decline at all I am going to assume you meant Shaq.

    In the end it was the right call picking Kobe over Shaq.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-01-2020 at 05:33 PM.

  10. #5965
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Yep that was a bad season for Kobe. Lots of things went down on the breakup and Kobe was not innocent by any means. When it was all said and done Shaq, Kobe, Malone, phill, Buss was all upset at something or someone. Buss and Jerry picked Kobe being that he was younger and Shaq had begun to break down. Phill no longer wanted to coach Kobe and again Buss chose Kobe over phill.

    Kobe was not in decline at all I am going to assume you meant Shaq.

    In the end it was the right call picking Kobe over Shaq.
    False, Kobe physically declined in 2004, he was coming off shoulder surgery and wasn't able to come to camp in the proper shape (to which O'neal quipped, everyone needed on the team was here or someshit). IIRC he also had some knee issues from coming into camp at a robust 225 the year prior (when he had his best overall season to that point at 30-7-6), he shed that weight and would never again compare to that physical level of athleticism ever again. He chose longevity and durability over peak athletic prowess. It was a smart decision but physically, there is no doubt Frobe has any version of post-Shaq Kobe beat.

    Shaq was actually in better shape in 04 than he had been in 03, he continued to shed the weight the next year in Miami too, only to get fatter again his championship season. Sometimes players fluctuate 1 year to the next, Kobe had a down year that year. Not overly so but I highly doubt Kobe at 225 is stopped as easily as Detroit made it look.

  11. #5966
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    2004 KG was clearly the MVP. I have no doubt at that point KG was the best PF. Duncan is still the bench mark at PF. A GOAT.

    Ben Wallace was top 5 and deserving so. Ben Wallace made that Detroit engine run at full speed. Rasheed was not getting any Technical fouls anymore and was a big addition to that engine. They needed each other and Rasheed became a big time player in Detroit. Maybe itís best player but not his system. Billups was hitting everything as was the team best one on one player. Rip just kept running thru screens and Prince was a on ball monster. Detroit won the game the way I like the game played. Hustling and handwork. Wallace was not drafted and one of the if not greatest defensive anchors of all time. Great year for them. No one one had them beating Kobe and Shaq. Itís a great story.

  12. #5967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    2004 Kobe against the Pistons was bad for Kobe standers.

    Kobe had a 42 point game and 15 point 4th quarter vs the Spurs in playoffs. No player has ever had more points in game against a Pop/Duncan team. 2004 Kobe was coming off leading the Lakers in scoring for the season and round 1-2.

    Round 3 vs KG and Minnesota. Shaq and Kobe looked like they were going to win the championship after this series. Kobe led the lakers in scoring in this round as well. Shaq was dominant as well. Team looked well balanced with Vets.

    Finals. The only game Lakes won Kobe had 33 points that game. The very next game Kobe had 11 points and Shaq had 14 points which was game 3. Detroit just dominated the Lakers after they look unstoppable. Detroit was just flat out a better team.
    they literally lost because of kobe... he down right refused to let the game plan play through shaq... kobe said to hell with the game plan

  13. #5968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    False, Kobe physically declined in 2004, he was coming off shoulder surgery and wasn't able to come to camp in the proper shape (to which O'neal quipped, everyone needed on the team was here or someshit). IIRC he also had some knee issues from coming into camp at a robust 225 the year prior (when he had his best overall season to that point at 30-7-6), he shed that weight and would never again compare to that physical level of athleticism ever again. He chose longevity and durability over peak athletic prowess. It was a smart decision but physically, there is no doubt Frobe has any version of post-Shaq Kobe beat.

    Shaq was actually in better shape in 04 than he had been in 03, he continued to shed the weight the next year in Miami too, only to get fatter again his championship season. Sometimes players fluctuate 1 year to the next, Kobe had a down year that year. Not overly so but I highly doubt Kobe at 225 is stopped as easily as Detroit made it look.
    2004 was a rough year for kobe. 2003 might have been his physical peak but he was a better player years after. Not sure how his physical peak was determine. While he had injuries they were not serious and players dont usually peak at 24 without a major injury and in many cases dont last just a few months. In short he was not on decline in 2004 but could not focus on basketball.
    Last edited by ldawg; 06-01-2020 at 11:16 PM.

  14. #5969
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    2004 was a rough year for kobe. 2003 might have been his physical peak but he was a better player years after. Not sure how his physical peak was determine. While he had injuries they were not serious and players dont usually peak at 24 without a major injury and in many cases dont last just a few months. In short he was not on decline in 2004 but could not focus on basketball.
    For running and jumping ability as well as general quickness and agility, most men hit their physical peak at around 24-25, but injuries can certainly impact that. Kobe had some injuries in 04 and 05. He wasn't as skilled as a later became and his decision making improved and so yes, the later version of Kobe was a better basketball player, but when factoring in athleticism, 03 was probably his peak.

  15. #5970
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    they literally lost because of kobe... he down right refused to let the game plan play through shaq... kobe said to hell with the game plan
    It's asinine to say that they lost because of Kobe. They lost for various reasons, chief amongst them was that the pistons were the better team by the time the finals came around. Phil was out coached (arguably pretty badly), shaq was not in good shape, and the team had a ton of injuries (and yes a big one was Kobe's decision making in that series). A huge reason Detroit was able to limit what Kobe did was because for large chunks of the game the lakers were basically playing 3 on 5 out there because Payton became completely ineffective and Malone couldn't really do much of anything while he was out there because of his injury so of course it's much easier to shift a defense around towards Kobe when you have 2 extra guys you can utilize.

    Even though shaq played well, Detroit didn't really send help against him (because they didn't need to) and the rest of the team shot horribly. Shaq couldn't keep up his activity for the entire game. He had 1-2 games where he did play very well (and these were the performances Phil was referring to) and the team was competitive in those, but playing more through shaq wouldn't have made a difference. I'm not even sure the Kobe of a few years later, fully following the game plan would've changed the outcome of that series, because Detroit was often ignoring guys like Payton and Malone entirely and focusing on Kobe (while not really sending help against shaq). That's one of the reasons that the defense seemed so amazing. If that lakers team had a little more depth and/or Malone doesn't get injured lakers likely win that series easily (with or without Kobe going off the script). Kobe definitely could've played better and his play and decision making were major factors in the outcome, but he certainly didn't cost them the series.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 06-04-2020 at 05:42 PM.

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