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  1. #5926
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    i dont think they call the people who pick Kobe hates they simply do not agree.
    Everyone who's come on this thread and had a discussion about this has been at one point or another labeled a hater or a troll.

  2. #5927
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    What are you talking about? There has been a decent number of non-laker fans who have agreed with me on this thread (which is saying a lot given the bias in here). Also, I asked you to explain that statistic because I was skeptical of whether you actually understood it (I actually was almost certain that you didn't and you showed that to be the case).

    It's pretty hilarious that you consider what I've done mocking you, yet you have repeatedly said that a scientist with multiple PhDs doesnt understand sampling bias or stats lol. You've actually continually tried to insult me over and over again, in a very explicit manner and then you have the gall to complain over me saying that it's ironic you would downplay titles given who you root for? Seriously dude? like seriously?? Even in this post you are directly insulting me, very explicitly and you're going to complain over what I said?? C'mon dude, show some dignity.

    I very simply asked you to explain the statistic you kept citing and that ended our otherwise civil discussion and you turned to calling me a troll.
    We have been through this, you haven't been able to break down even the most basics and this is complicated. AT ANY TIME YOU CAN LOOK IT UP YOURSELF AND PROVIDE THE ANALYSIS. Or you can just keep ranting about this while obviously being unable to back up your claims and unable to ever counter with your own stats/analysis.

    Oh, is this where I call you a weenie now for complaining about minor things? Stop playing the victim while also calling others names and going at their teams and so on too. It is just pathetic how often you have done this victim thing, again I don't care at all that you call me that stuff and so on I just am calling out your obvious hypocrisy. I am not complaining I am just using your own game back at you and you clearly are too sensitive to handle it. Funny you were calling me weenie earlier given your attitude here.

    You asked me to break down a very complex formula when you have lacked basic understanding of statistics throughout. I am not going to these extremes just for the same circular games you play and your calling names and so on then playing victim is a major reason we are here. As noted like 20 times it is on bball reference and you could easily look at it yourself IF you actually cared and weren't just being a troll. Go ahead, literally nothing is stopping you but yourself.

  3. #5928
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    i dont agree reciting all older players to some modern players but i understand people will have different picks for their top players. i dont think they are haters for doing that. we can debate as to why. I have been called a troll for putting some modern players pass old school players. So it goes both ways.

  4. #5929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Everyone who's come on this thread and had a discussion about this has been at one point or another labeled a hater or a troll.
    goes both ways

  5. #5930
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It is not just all about stats, you have this weird thing of constantly assuming wrong about the approach. It's part of the reason I at this point see bias because you don't even have genuine conversations you just jump to assumptions over and over about my rankings and what I use etc. then argue against things I am not using (on top of all the obvious context issues that have been pointed out or only applied one way). Why don't you share whatever you think is proof he was that good because searching for polls isn't how I judge. The issue is Kobe in the playoffs at that time hadn't done anything as the man until 08. He was falling off individually from RS and so on while Duncan was still leading his team to a title in 07/Dirk was coming up and by 08 Lebron had lead his team to a finals while playing very good individually in playoffs as the guy himself. I do agree he was right in that mix but it wasn't levels above other players or anything like we saw from Lebron for a span. Having the stats helps show your dominance, it isn't necessary but Kobe doesn't hit multiple requirements it would take to be considered clearly above the rest at that time imo. Kobe won best player ESPY in 08 and 10, does that count as a poll at the time lol?
    What approach am I assuming lol. It's your ranking. You explain why you feel LeBron is top three worthy then. I only feel that Kobe was the best in 06, 07, and 08. Then in 09 and 10, it was debatable between him and Bron. One a and One b. Even Jerry West agrees. Again, LeBron as been in the conversation as the best from 09-17. He was clearly the best in 2012 and 2013 when no one was even close. Again, not a huge requirement for me, because I don't see Magic and Duncan being clearly best far above anyone else at all in their careers really. It's just mostly timing. Hakeem might have never held that honor if Jordan had not left the league for two years. It's just mostly timing. If Jordan and Kareem played together at the same time, neither of them would have held that honor either. It's more about timing than anything else. My criteria is mostly about how well you impacted your team in terms of leading them to titles and how much you dominated your era in terms of winning. I don't go all ham on that 3-6 stuff like the haters do, but I do factor in that 3 titles in 17 seasons isn't all that top five worthy, especially considering the fact that he was able to have more additional help than his contemporaries and was able to essentially use his influence to construct multiple super teams. There is something called degree of difficulty and we must handicap the decadence of the titles he won as such. When a gymnast picks an easier routine than their other competitors, the score is then handicapped and the bar is set only so high as the the score they can achieve. The more difficult the routine, the higher the total possible score. This isn't Rocket Science really.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    https://www.si.com/nba/2020/05/20/be...er-alive-2000s
    Alright there is SI ranking each year, not that I agree but they have him on top once. I think Kobe was right there as a I said but there was no point it was ever as clear as the gap between Lebron and KD/Curry as individual players.
    That list was terrible lol. Duncan over Shaq in 02? Garnett over Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe in 04? Nash in 06? Dirk in 07 when his team lost in the first round after winning 67 games and he had to accept his MVP award at his home via satellite lol. CP3 in 08 over Kobe and LeBron? Toiler paper bro. Curry was tearing the league up in 2015 and 2016. He was clearly in the conversation. I don't know how you can't see that. Just because his "numbers" didn't stack in comparison to LeBron's in the NBA Finals doesn't mean squat. They played different roles on their teams. In 2015, LeBron set new usage records to compensate for the loss of Kyrie and Love. His efficiency numbers were dreadful. In 2016, Curry was not at 100% due to an injury he suffered in the first round. It wasn't until game five that LeBron really came on anyways and that was mainly due to no Draymond in game five and Bogut being out for half of game five and the rest of the series. Iggy threw his back out as well. We must look at all of this and the fact that if we only go by regular seasons, Curry far out performed LeBron and the rest of the league as well both years. Curry in my honest opinion did deserve NBA Finals MVP for his performance in the 2015 NBA Finals, but got robbed because the media members who worship LeBron knew they couldn't justify giving it to him and did not want to give it to his number one rival at the time, so they concocted a case for Iggy. Steph easily was the MVP of GSW for that whole year and the NBA Finals included. A no brainer really.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Italk about it because you keep saying about what ifs and so on unrelated to what happen trying to bring him down without actually looking at what did happen and how good he played etc. I also agree many people dislike Lebron no doubt and there will always be rankings mixed in. I mean when people actually break down reasoning and so on without the weird games being done over and over in this thread to diminish some incredible individual accomplishments by Lebron.
    Even is someone is bias against a certain player, doesn't mean that the points they bring up are any less valid and therefore should be negated. At the end of the day, the truth is what it is regardless and some people just don't like to hear it. Oh well. It is what it is. Three titles in seventeen seasons is a fact. Nothing can be done to change it. Since 2010, LeBron has individually constructed three different super teams. That is also a fact. Yes, he was the main alpha on those teams that won titles and we have to give him credit for that accordingly, but must also factor in the help he was able to manufacture for himself as well. My gymnastics routine analogy stands.
    Also, the titles left on the tables while receiving that help and the meltdown in 2011 can't be forgotten and swept under the rug. All this being said, it is not a clear cut debate that he belongs in the top five as of yet. Now, could that change, sure. As I've said in the past; we must wait a few years till after he retires to gain a clear vision on his career and where he truly deserves to be ranked. There are a ton of people who are clearly fan boys of his and are being influenced by that and the recency bias going on currently. The point I am making, is that it is not clear cut by any means. I mean, does Jordan get this much resistance when people call him GOAT? Maybe by Shannon Sharpe and Nick Wright and other fanatics, but for the more calm and cooler heads, like 99.9% of people would have Jordan as GOAT and Kareem at number 2 at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I know there are stans of tons of guys and I am all fine debating but alot of the circling going on is not good faith debating trying to downgrade great teams and so on. You can say whatever you want but can you back it up outside when I was not sober where I have constantly tried to ignore actual context and push the what ifs or downgrade good teams like you or others have? I will wait if I have been doing that in the same manner but that is the main issue. Pretending GS wasn't great or that Spurs team was the level big moves has and so on isn't real debate.
    I am not downgrading anyone. Just putting things into perspective. That is unfortunately what we have to do in these debates. We just must stick to the facts as much as possible. GSW was great no doubt. They just go unlucky with injuries and suspensions late in that series. When both teams were at full strength, they were clearly great and dominating the Cavs. Spurs were also a great team as well. They easily take that in six if Pop doesn't have a brain fart and decide to let LeBron go ham tear off his headband, and rip apart his second stringers with a title literally in his fingertips up by double figures in game six with about eight minutes to go. I really can't fathom what he was thinking lol. As I said last post, perhaps he was tying to play mind games because he knew he was likely going to be playing them again next year and that his "big three" was gonna be a year older and he needed every edge mentally he could get. IDK. I really can't explain that one at all. I guess even great all-time coaches make mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    To most people who are making logical arguments and being reasonably consistent not just looking to downgrade and think the worst of hypothetical and so on regularly most do say Lebron. It has been a chunk of Lakers posters and NYK who often does this arguing against all the fans of other teams and so on which is often the norm. Like I have said before I am aware there are tons of homers/haters for all fans so there is never going to be 100%consensus. I mean when people actually breakdown how guys played individually not just count rings, use actual context not hypothetical you wish would happen, not downgrade clearly great teams and so on that is when they end up choosing Lebron. We see it all over the forum the ones who don't are often going to such extremes. It isn't that everyone thinks it, it is that most knowledgeable people capable of breaking things down in a genuine manner all regularly come to the same conclusions/can back them up like myself/Valade have done exposing some of the major hypocrisy in the thread from a few posters (way more NYK/Big Moves than you btw). My goal isn't to make everyone rate them the same but when I see clear issues in peoples context they lay out or arguments I will definitely call them out. Pippen is better than Love/Cousins and just because it helps the Lebron debate for someone doesn't make it a legit point or one that shouldn't be confronted.
    I try not to use all these bs arguments as well. As I said, bottom line. Three titles in seventeen seasons as the main alpha when you got to pick your won teams from 2010-2020 (an entire decade) is just not top five worthy in my eyes and a lot of other peoples eyes as well. There have been quite a bit of hiccups along the way as well. I do not feel the need to list them all over again. Pippen is clearly better than Kyrie and Love. Especially, Love. Guess we have to see what Kyrie does with the rest of his career though. Though I will say that Jordan never got that kind of offensive help from any of his teammates in any of his NBA Finals series or even playoff series for that matter. I know defense factors in as well, and the scores were a lot lower when Jordan played. Overall, Pippen is better, but in tandem of Kyrie and Love, no Jordan never had help like that. Love is more than a roll player, and that's how he was used in the LeBron James system. So, it's not fair to blame him entirely for his lack of production. Nor Bosh for that matter. Jordan was asked to sacrifice his syle of play and conform to the more team oriented triangle system. Even when he did, he was still not only able to out perform LeBron both statistically and individually, he was able to win in a dominating fashion at the same time.

  6. #5931
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    your not getting people genuine felt Kobe was surpassed. Some people genuine feel old school players were the best. ...Just look at it this way its like trying to say MJ is not the goat. Most people will get mad you suggest such a thing. Its has nothing to do with hating the other player.

  7. #5932
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    We have been through this, you haven't been able to break down even the most basics and this is complicated. AT ANY TIME YOU CAN LOOK IT UP YOURSELF AND PROVIDE THE ANALYSIS. Or you can just keep ranting about this while obviously being unable to back up your claims and unable to ever counter with your own stats/analysis.

    Oh, is this where I call you a weenie now for complaining about minor things? Stop playing the victim while also calling others names and going at their teams and so on too. It is just pathetic how often you have done this victim thing, again I don't care at all that you call me that stuff and so on I just am calling out your obvious hypocrisy. I am not complaining I am just using your own game back at you and you clearly are too sensitive to handle it. Funny you were calling me weenie earlier given your attitude here.

    You asked me to break down a very complex formula when you have lacked basic understanding of statistics throughout. I am not going to these extremes just for the same circular games you play and your calling names and so on then playing victim is a major reason we are here. As noted like 20 times it is on bball reference and you could easily look at it yourself IF you actually cared and weren't just being a troll. Go ahead, literally nothing is stopping you but yourself.
    Dude, go back and look at how many times you referenced that I was calling out your team etc lol. I'm bringing this up because you were complaining about it and that's why I called you a weenie...and then you referenced that as well. You're the one complaining about this. I'm calling you on it. We can go back to the posts and see who has complained about this. I'm brining it up now because of how hypocritical it is for you to do that when you're continually insulting me. I don't really care that you're saying this stuff, but I'm bringing it up because of what you are posting.

    And again, I didn't ask you to explain it to me because I need an actual explanation, im asking you to explain it because I do not believe that you actually understand it, but are nevertheless using it as evidence for the foundation of your position. Had you been able to do this, I would have actually delved into the massive flaws in this measure, but there's no point in it because you dont actually understand this metric. That's fine, you likely don't have the background to understand it, but if that's the case, then you really shouldn't be using the metic to support any argument.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-31-2020 at 12:24 AM.

  8. #5933
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    your not getting people genuine felt Kobe was surpassed. Some people genuine feel old school players were the best. ...Just look at it this way its like trying to say MJ is not the goat. Most people will get mad you suggest such a thing. Its has nothing to do with hating the other player.
    That's fine, but the people who are picking kobe are not calling everyone else haters, whereas the people picking LBJ are.

  9. #5934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    What approach am I assuming lol. It's your ranking. You explain why you feel LeBron is top three worthy then. I only feel that Kobe was the best in 06, 07, and 08. Then in 09 and 10, it was debatable between him and Bron. One a and One b. Even Jerry West agrees. Again, LeBron as been in the conversation as the best from 09-17. He was clearly the best in 2012 and 2013 when no one was even close. Again, not a huge requirement for me, because I don't see Magic and Duncan being clearly best far above anyone else at all in their careers really. It's just mostly timing. Hakeem might have never held that honor if Jordan had not left the league for two years. It's just mostly timing. If Jordan and Kareem played together at the same time, neither of them would have held that honor either. It's more about timing than anything else. My criteria is mostly about how well you impacted your team in terms of leading them to titles and how much you dominated your era in terms of winning. I don't go all ham on that 3-6 stuff like the haters do, but I do factor in that 3 titles in 17 seasons isn't all that top five worthy, especially considering the fact that he was able to have more additional help than his contemporaries and was able to essentially use his influence to construct multiple super teams. There is something called degree of difficulty and we must handicap the decadence of the titles he won as such. When a gymnast picks an easier routine than their other competitors, the score is then handicapped and the bar is set only so high as the the score they can achieve. The more difficult the routine, the higher the total possible score. This isn't Rocket Science really.



    That list was terrible lol. Duncan over Shaq in 02? Garnett over Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe in 04? Nash in 06? Dirk in 07 when his team lost in the first round after winning 67 games and he had to accept his MVP award at his home via satellite lol. CP3 in 08 over Kobe and LeBron? Toiler paper bro. Curry was tearing the league up in 2015 and 2016. He was clearly in the conversation. I don't know how you can't see that. Just because his "numbers" didn't stack in comparison to LeBron's in the NBA Finals doesn't mean squat. They played different roles on their teams. In 2015, LeBron set new usage records to compensate for the loss of Kyrie and Love. His efficiency numbers were dreadful. In 2016, Curry was not at 100% due to an injury he suffered in the first round. It wasn't until game five that LeBron really came on anyways and that was mainly due to no Draymond in game five and Bogut being out for half of game five and the rest of the series. Iggy threw his back out as well. We must look at all of this and the fact that if we only go by regular seasons, Curry far out performed LeBron and the rest of the league as well both years. Curry in my honest opinion did deserve NBA Finals MVP for his performance in the 2015 NBA Finals, but got robbed because the media members who worship LeBron knew they couldn't justify giving it to him and did not want to give it to his number one rival at the time, so they concocted a case for Iggy. Steph easily was the MVP of GSW for that whole year and the NBA Finals included. A no brainer really.



    Even is someone is bias against a certain player, doesn't mean that the points they bring up are any less valid and therefore should be negated. At the end of the day, the truth is what it is regardless and some people just don't like to hear it. Oh well. It is what it is. Three titles in seventeen seasons is a fact. Nothing can be done to change it. Since 2010, LeBron has individually constructed three different super teams. That is also a fact. Yes, he was the main alpha on those teams that won titles and we have to give him credit for that accordingly, but must also factor in the help he was able to manufacture for himself as well. My gymnastics routine analogy stands.
    Also, the titles left on the tables while receiving that help and the meltdown in 2011 can't be forgotten and swept under the rug. All this being said, it is not a clear cut debate that he belongs in the top five as of yet. Now, could that change, sure. As I've said in the past; we must wait a few years till after he retires to gain a clear vision on his career and where he truly deserves to be ranked. There are a ton of people who are clearly fan boys of his and are being influenced by that and the recency bias going on currently. The point I am making, is that it is not clear cut by any means. I mean, does Jordan get this much resistance when people call him GOAT? Maybe by Shannon Sharpe and Nick Wright and other fanatics, but for the more calm and cooler heads, like 99.9% of people would have Jordan as GOAT and Kareem at number 2 at that.



    I am not downgrading anyone. Just putting things into perspective. That is unfortunately what we have to do in these debates. We just must stick to the facts as much as possible. GSW was great no doubt. They just go unlucky with injuries and suspensions late in that series. When both teams were at full strength, they were clearly great and dominating the Cavs. Spurs were also a great team as well. They easily take that in six if Pop doesn't have a brain fart and decide to let LeBron go ham tear off his headband, and rip apart his second stringers with a title literally in his fingertips up by double figures in game six with about eight minutes to go. I really can't fathom what he was thinking lol. As I said last post, perhaps he was tying to play mind games because he knew he was likely going to be playing them again next year and that his "big three" was gonna be a year older and he needed every edge mentally he could get. IDK. I really can't explain that one at all. I guess even great all-time coaches make mistakes.



    I try not to use all these bs arguments as well. As I said, bottom line. Three titles in seventeen seasons as the main alpha when you got to pick your won teams from 2010-2020 (an entire decade) is just not top five worthy in my eyes and a lot of other peoples eyes as well. There have been quite a bit of hiccups along the way as well. I do not feel the need to list them all over again. Pippen is clearly better than Kyrie and Love. Especially, Love. Guess we have to see what Kyrie does with the rest of his career though. Though I will say that Jordan never got that kind of offensive help from any of his teammates in any of his NBA Finals series or even playoff series for that matter. I know defense factors in as well, and the scores were a lot lower when Jordan played. Overall, Pippen is better, but in tandem of Kyrie and Love, no Jordan never had help like that. Love is more than a roll player, and that's how he was used in the LeBron James system. So, it's not fair to blame him entirely for his lack of production. Nor Bosh for that matter. Jordan was asked to sacrifice his syle of play and conform to the more team oriented triangle system. Even when he did, he was still not only able to out perform LeBron both statistically and individually, he was able to win in a dominating fashion at the same time.
    Nah I think Duncan was at least right there until like 07 at least. Lebron/Kobe were both there in 08-10 though I agree it was a bit closer as Lebron had not peaked yet and Kobe was in his. It is not the end all requirement but at the same time being that clear cut guy does put you over guys in your era at least and so on. Young Lebron was there with peak Kobe so as he got better he surpassed is basically the idea here. I agree about degree of difficulty and have covered his epic games like Boston 12, being underdogs heading into 12 finals, the spurs teams have been covered and of course GS they were obvious underdogs and so on. His individual play those series outmatches say Kobe beating Celtics pretty easily on an individual level too and in 09 Kobe had little competition himself.

    Most lists are bad and it was just to counter you giving your own media as anyone can do it. Curry was definitely a great player but there is a reason the better team lost to the superior performance of the star on the other team in 16. Lebron was the best player in the league those years and Curry did fall off in the playoffs for a reason. The main difference was injuries to both Kyrie/Love in 2015 but on an individual level it was Lebron as best. If you want I would be willing to make a poll in the main forum asking the best player year by year to see when people think Lebron had it over this decade? I think it is pretty clear he will get more than a couple years but we can see. I think 12-14 is pretty easy and that is 3 years more than many if we have such high standards for being the best either way (Kobe never had dominance like this stretch over the rest of league individually).

    Ya GS and Spurs were great and far better than competition in say 09 for Lakers. We can try and downgrade them all we want but it simply isn't close, they were much better. On top of that in those specific series Lebron played better individually than the one time Kobe faced competition like that in the finals vs Celtics. Individually and in comparison of their competition Lebron looks pretty great.

    I don't think feelings about how a team come together matter and within context covered for each series I haven't seen a great breakdown of when he was supposed to win. You can't ignore KD Warriors and so on during this time or injuries to Cavs in 15 and so on just to push this narrative he should have won more. I think that is part of the issue context is never actually broken down to show why/how he should have actually won more individually how he failed. 11, sure but after that people don't really break it down or acknowledge being underdogs/the injuries/the decline of Wade/Bosh often when saying this. I am curious on the specific failings if you feel this way outside 11. We already covered Love and you literally had said you thought the team is better without him, you can't just ignore that to push this idea that team was great lol. It matters and is why Cle actually was very flawed and that ring from Lebron/Kyrie was pretty epic.

  10. #5935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Dude, go back and look at how many times you referenced that I was calling out your team etc lol. I'm bringing this up because you were complaining about it and that's why I called you a weenie...and then you referenced that as well. You're the one complaining about this. I'm calling you on it. We can go back to the posts and see who has complained about this. I'm brining it up now because of how hypocritical it is for you to do that when you're continually insulting me. I don't really care that you're saying this stuff, but I'm bringing it up because of what you are posting.

    And again, I didn't ask you to explain it to me because I need an actual explanation, im asking you to explain it because I do not believe that you actually understand it, but are nevertheless using it as evidence for the foundation of your position. Had you been able to do this, I would have actually delved into the massive flaws in this measure, but there's no point in it because you dont actually understand this metric. That's fine, you likely don't have the background to understand it, but if that's the case, then you really shouldn't be using the metic to support any argument.
    OMG no I am not and I don't even care, you can just keep playing the victim then sheesh.

    Ya I am gonna go ahead and point out it's been said many times bolded etc. but if this was an issue it's 100% your own fault at this point as you clearly don't actually care as you could easily do that by going where I told you it was located. You just wanna whine, I understand plenty which is why I know if you cared at all you would just break it down but you would rather play these weird games as to not expose yourself

  11. #5936
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    OMG no I am not and I don't even care, you can just keep playing the victim then sheesh.

    Ya I am gonna go ahead and point out it's been said many times bolded etc. but if this was an issue it's 100% your own fault at this point as you clearly don't actually care as you could easily do that by going where I told you it was located. You just wanna whine, I understand plenty which is why I know if you cared at all you would just break it down but you would rather play these weird games as to not expose yourself
    Again, you called me a troll yesterday and started complaining and then today after having a discussion you resorted to calling me a troll again after I asked you to explain the metric. This is what actually happened. You were the one playing the victim by saying I was calling out your team, I'm basically highlighting how hypocritical this is. You couldn't explain the metric so you restored to name calling. I'm not going to bother breaking down a metric if you don't actually understand it. If you did, you could explain it in a pretty straightforward manner so I simply ask that you not bring up metrics that are critical to your argument unless you are capable of explaining them. If you're going to cite a statistical measure, im going to ask you to explain it and if you can't im not going to bother entertaining the argument.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-31-2020 at 12:44 AM.

  12. #5937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Again, you called me a troll yesterday and started complaining and then today after having a discussion you resorted to calling me a troll again after I asked you to explain the metric. This is what actually happened. You were the one playing the victim by saying I was calling out your team, I'm basically highlighting how hypocritical this is. You couldn't explain the metric so you restored to name calling. I'm not going to bother breaking down a metric if you don't actually understand it. If you did, you could explain it in a pretty straightforward manner so I simply ask that you not bring up metrics that are critical to your argument unless you are capable of explaining them.
    I called you a troll for trolling people's teams and so on (laughably not knowing Portland had a title), sure. When you continued to be a hypocrite then asked me to break down a stat my argument wasn't reliant on in any way it was clear again you have nothing to back up your claims and just want to troll again so I said no I've broken down enough and gave you the place to find it yourself and point out issues.

    You have been whining ever since. If there is an issue with the metric you have that's fine because my argument wasn't even remotely reliant on it BUT that's irrelevant to you because this has never been about genuine discussion for you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I called you a troll for trolling people's teams and so on (laughably not knowing Portland had a title), sure. When you continued to be a hypocrite then asked me to break down a stat my argument wasn't reliant on in any way it was clear again you have nothing to back up your claims and just want to troll again so I said no I've broken down enough and gave you the place to find it yourself and point out issues.

    You have been whining ever since. If there is an issue with the metric you have that's fine because my argument wasn't even remotely reliant on it BUT that's irrelevant to you because this has never been about genuine discussion for you.


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    First off, Portland having a title doesn't in anyway factor in here (I absolutely knew about Portland having a title) and it's still ironic for a Portland fan to downgrade titles, because one title in over 40 years isn't quite a shining example of winning. The metric was absolutely critical to your argument because you were citing it as evidence of how inefficient kobe was as the man and how he wasn't a true #1. Your entire argument is reliant on these statistics. Without them you dont really have a leg to stand on, and you can't explain them so there isn't really much to discuss.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-31-2020 at 12:54 AM.

  14. #5939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    First off, Portland having a title doesn't in anyway factor in here (I absolutely knew about Portland having a title) and it's still ironic for a Portland fan to downgrade titles, because one title in over 40 years isn't quite a shining example of winning. The metric was absolutely critical to your argument because you were citing it as evidence of how inefficient kobe was as the man and how he wasn't a true #1. Your entire argument is reliant on these statistics. Without them you dont really have a leg to stand on, and you can't explain them so there isn't really much to discuss.
    It isn't ironic for fans of other teams to have opinions on the game. You jumping to their making it about their team being bad and so on in the way mentioned is trolling. You are simply using the team identity and their losing over the years to say their opinion is less meaningful and they don't care about rings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The answer is because this dude, along with many others who post on here regularly are major LBJ fans who not so secretly disliked Kobe, probably because Kobe gave it to their teams for so many years and they had nothing to cling to so now of course they don't care about championships (when the heck have their teams ever won one?). It's rich for a timberwolves fan to come on here and argue about how championships don't matter (same for a Portland fan). of course championships don't matter to these guys, they don't know what the heck one even is lol
    This was a response to another laker fan from you just as one example. You say we don't know what a championship is so how can we argue about them/they must not matter to us essentially, see? I can't believe you have been denying this but here I went and found it so we can all see that you did what I have been saying. (again Portland does know, I am just going based off your literal post saying they don't have ANY idea when they actually won one.

    My argument included a bunch of other data too like his low FG% and having MORE turnovers than assists in the series and even getting into specific close game and so on. It was not just me saying ORTG and that was that lol that is just how you constantly twist my arguments to be despite me continually breaking it all down for you over and over you just ignore reality for these narratives.

  15. #5940
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    It isn't ironic for fans of other teams to have opinions on the game. You jumping to their making it about their team being bad and so on in the way mentioned is trolling. You are simply using the team identity and their losing over the years to say their opinion is less meaningful and they don't care about rings.



    This was a response to another laker fan from you just as one example. You say we don't know what a championship is so how can we argue about them/they must not matter to us essentially, see? I can't believe you have been denying this but here I went and found it so we can all see that you did what I have been saying. (again Portland does know, I am just going based off your literal post saying they don't have ANY idea when they actually won one.

    My argument included a bunch of other data too like his low FG% and having MORE turnovers than assists in the series and even getting into specific close game and so on. It was not just me saying ORTG and that was that lol that is just how you constantly twist my arguments to be despite me continually breaking it all down for you over and over you just ignore reality for these narratives.
    When did I deny that I said that? I've been saying it over and over again. I literally just said that in the previous post. It doesn't mean your opinion is less, it's just ironic to devalue championships given who you root for. I explicitly responded to you about this multiple times and said that it wasn't really something that should be all that offensive.

    And yes, you cited other things as well, but those things weren't the crux of your argument, because the difference in missed shots and turnovers wasn't all that drastic when we look at what they actually amount to in the game. I previously noted this point and this was when you brought up the ORTG metric.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-31-2020 at 01:14 AM.

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