Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 390 of 452 FirstFirst ... 290340380388389390391392400440 ... LastLast
Results 5,836 to 5,850 of 6768
  1. #5836
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I agree that one of Kobe's rings is on par with Pippen's but I would say that the other two are on par with LBJ's rings.
    That's where everyone will disagree. I don't think Kobe was on the peak LBJ level one year after you think he was Pippen level and without the context haha. He didn't just jump into peak version one day.

  2. #5837
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,124
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    That's where everyone will disagree. I don't think Kobe was on the peak LBJ level one year after you think he was Pippen level and without the context haha. He didn't just jump into peak version one day.
    He made a massive jump. Sure peak LBJ was might have been better than 01 version of the Kobe (that in of itself is somewhat debatable though), but the 2012 version of LBJ was probably better than 2016 version of LBJ. Does that mean that his 2012 title is worth more than his 2016 title? I don't think comparing where they were as individual players for each championship is the best way to compare those things. Also, 01 version of Kobe was still likely a far better fit on that lakers team than any version of LBJ.

  3. #5838
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He made a massive jump. Sure peak LBJ was might have been better than 01 version of the Kobe (that in of itself is somewhat debatable though), but the 2012 version of LBJ was probably better than 2016 version of LBJ. Does that mean that his 2012 title is worth more than his 2016 title? I don't think comparing where they were as individual players for each championship is the best way to compare those things. Also, 01 version of Kobe was still likely a far better fit on that lakers team than any version of LBJ.
    2016 Lebron was better than 01/02 Kobe and not far off from 12/13 come playoff/finals time. The point is 01/02 Kobe was not on the level of All Time top 10 guys at their very peak, he wasn't at his own peak himself and barely squeaks in to many often due to longevity not peak itself. We saw as Kobe took over that team more they actually started losing instead of winning titles. He had a very bad 04 finals trying to prove he could be that guy but failing. When together and without Kobe not much of a drop off but without Shaq we are talking closer to .500 team. Kobe was a very good player but he was not fully developed into his own prime yet nor the best player in the league at the time and so on while winning his titles.

    The context doesn't match up at all really to make that comparison.

  4. #5839
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,124
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    2016 Lebron was better than 01/02 Kobe and not far off from 12/13 come playoff/finals time. The point is 01/02 Kobe was not on the level of All Time top 10 guys at their very peak, he wasn't at his own peak himself and barely squeaks in to many often due to longevity not peak itself. We saw as Kobe took over that team more they actually started losing instead of winning titles. He had a very bad 04 finals trying to prove he could be that guy but failing. When together and without Kobe not much of a drop off but without Shaq we are talking closer to .500 team. Kobe was a very good player but he was not fully developed into his own prime yet nor the best player in the league at the time and so on while winning his titles.

    The context doesn't match up at all really to make that comparison.
    That's all revisionist history as far as I'm concerned. Shaq had a very similar group of guys along with Eddie Jones and Kobe and could not get it done, so the idea that Kobe didn't make that much of a difference doesn't hold water. It wasn't until Kobe made a big jump that the lakers went onto become champs (despite losing one of the best all-around players in the game in Eddie Jones). Kobe was the best player on the lakers in 03 and in 04, sure he had a bad finals, but there was a lot of stuff going on there. Shaq and Kobe were mad at each other and shaq was also mad at the lakers. It wasn't just Kobe trying to take over...and that was also different from what happened in 03 when Kobe had emerged as the best player). Ability wise, I would say Kobe was already top 10 in 01. Had he not been on the lakers, he would've likely put up historically great numbers during those years (and they would've likely eclipsed the numbers he put up afterward once shaq left). To date, his 03 season is still ranked by many as his best all around season.

  5. #5840
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,155
    Could it be a coaching change.

  6. #5841
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,124
    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Could it be a coaching change.
    I'm sure that factored in (although shaq himself is on record saying that he didn't think the coaching really made a difference or something along those lines).

  7. #5842
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,545
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Team efficiency is entirely a team statistic and it's also not all that great of a predictor of who wins a title or who is the best team. With the exception of the warriors, I think only one team had the best offensive efficiency and also won a title (I think it was the heat in 13). Offensive efficiency correlates with scoring points and in each game and the team that scores the most points wins so obviously they're going to be related. The point of the game isn't to have the highest rating in offensive efficiency.
    Lol...if team efficiency is entirely a team statistic, then so is winning a ring man.

  8. #5843
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,545
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He definitely does warp the floor, arguably more so than any player in NBA history (with the only players who had that type of impact being MJ, Shaq, and Wilt). Love (at least before teaming with LBJ) and AD were arguably better rebounders than all of them (except maybe Dwight, but Dwight only played one season with Kobe and that was after his injury wherein he was no longer the same player) and Bosh was a very good rebounder before joining the heat (on par with Gasol actually). In 05 and 05 Kobe had kwame and Mihm (and Mihm hardly played).
    Lebron warps the floor way more than Kobe

  9. #5844
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    That's all revisionist history as far as I'm concerned. Shaq had a very similar group of guys along with Eddie Jones and Kobe and could not get it done, so the idea that Kobe didn't make that much of a difference doesn't hold water. It wasn't until Kobe made a big jump that the lakers went onto become champs (despite losing one of the best all-around players in the game in Eddie Jones). Kobe was the best player on the lakers in 03 and in 04, sure he had a bad finals, but there was a lot of stuff going on there. Shaq and Kobe were mad at each other and shaq was also mad at the lakers. It wasn't just Kobe trying to take over...and that was also different from what happened in 03 when Kobe had emerged as the best player). Ability wise, I would say Kobe was already top 10 in 01. Had he not been on the lakers, he would've likely put up historically great numbers during those years (and they would've likely eclipsed the numbers he put up afterward once shaq left). To date, his 03 season is still ranked by many as his best all around season.
    We are looking at everything that happened and that is what happened. Kobe made a difference as one of, maybe even the best, 2nd options we have ever seen but that doesn't change anything I have said so far. I mean they still lost in 03 even if you do want to claim he was the best player that year it doesn't change anything. Against the Spurs Kobe shot a bunch and had like 32ppg but his efficiency was way down (shooting 43%) and Shaq's was much better (Kobe also had more turnovers than assists this series). If you mean this is the first year defenses started treating them similar or focusing more on him I think it was at least arguable here and that's why he dropped off against Spurs (103 ortg) and Pistons (90 ortg). Kobe was not a top 10 player peak all time in 01, I definitely disagree with that (if you mean in the league, fine but that doesn't change anything). I don't think 03 was his best all around season given the playoffs and his drop off when becoming more of a focal point of defenses.

  10. #5845
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,545
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, but a lot of these guys don't really care about debating Kobe vs. LBJ. They dislike Kobe and love LBJ so they use whatever they can find to support that. With the MJ vs. LBJ debate, they resort to trying to argue that Pippen was some superstar player and how Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and now AD are all somehow inferior. How in about 13 years he's accomplished twice as much as what LBJ has been able to do in 17 despite the latter having far more stacked teams. They have to resort to arguing that the bulls were this super stacked team and how Pippen showed he could be the man by leading his team to a 2nd round defeat (by that logic, Eddie Jones proved that he could be the man, since he once led the lakers in 95 to the same exact feat).
    No hate, just pro stats

  11. #5846
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,855
    I was just trying to make some points earlier. Magic and Shaq came into the league true #1 options. They came in prodigyís and eventually became basketball gods. Rookie Magic was already taking players of the top 10 list.

    Shaq came in Superman day 1. Shaq averaged 23 points a game as a rookie but he had his highest average in rebounds. The numbers say itís Shaq absolute best at grappling rebounds but we all know what Shaq would become. Shaq second year he got to the highest points per game he would get at 29. Only .5-.1 is the difference thru out his career. In his 3rd year he took a team that only excited for 6 years to NBA Finals. Shaq was top 10 big man let alone a #1 option before he peaked.

    Kobe also came in ready to be the best player in the league day 1. Del Harris benched Kobe for being young not because Kobe wasnít ready. Kobe second season he was clearly the 2nd best guard in the whole league. The last dance was Kobe 2nd season and Kobe lite up everyone in that all star game before that sat him like the Lakers sat him. Phill pulled him off the bench 1st day and they instantly make the finals. Imagine that. 20 year old Kobe performance for his first championship was elite. He made the list of 60 greatest moments in NBA history for the 60 year anniversary in the NBA. Kobe coming thru in the clutch with Shaq fouled out. Thatís basically Jordan hitting the game winner for Worthyís team level of greatness. They cemented Kobe performance for itís greatness. It wasnít Kobes peak but Kobe was already the best guard in the league. One year later Kobe was the #2 on the Lakers and #2 in the league rankings.

  12. #5847
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    I was just trying to make some points earlier. Magic and Shaq came into the league true #1 options. They came in prodigyís and eventually became basketball gods. Rookie Magic was already taking players of the top 10 list.

    Shaq came in Superman day 1. Shaq averaged 23 points a game as a rookie but he had his highest average in rebounds. The numbers say itís Shaq absolute best at grappling rebounds but we all know what Shaq would become. Shaq second year he got to the highest points per game he would get at 29. Only .5-.1 is the difference thru out his career. In his 3rd year he took a team that only excited for 6 years to NBA Finals. Shaq was top 10 big man let alone a #1 option before he peaked.

    Kobe also came in ready to be the best player in the league day 1. Del Harris benched Kobe for being young not because Kobe wasnít ready. Kobe second season he was clearly the 2nd best guard in the whole league. The last dance was Kobe 2nd season and Kobe lite up everyone in that all star game before that sat him like the Lakers sat him. Phill pulled him off the bench 1st day and they instantly make the finals. Imagine that. 20 year old Kobe performance for his first championship was elite. He made the list of 60 greatest moments in NBA history for the 60 year anniversary in the NBA. Kobe coming thru in the clutch with Shaq fouled out. Thatís basically Jordan hitting the game winner for Worthyís team level of greatness. They cemented Kobe performance for itís greatness. It wasnít Kobes peak but Kobe was already the best guard in the league. One year later Kobe was the #2 on the Lakers and #2 in the league rankings.
    I think you said it but you forgot to put not. Kobe was going to be a star but he was not ready from day one to play at the level the coach wanted. I do think he could of avg 18ppg rookie of the year but it was going to be a rookie performance. Maybe if they did not have Shaq.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-29-2020 at 11:14 PM.

  13. #5848
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    I was just trying to make some points earlier. Magic and Shaq came into the league true #1 options. They came in prodigyís and eventually became basketball gods. Rookie Magic was already taking players of the top 10 list.

    Shaq came in Superman day 1. Shaq averaged 23 points a game as a rookie but he had his highest average in rebounds. The numbers say itís Shaq absolute best at grappling rebounds but we all know what Shaq would become. Shaq second year he got to the highest points per game he would get at 29. Only .5-.1 is the difference thru out his career. In his 3rd year he took a team that only excited for 6 years to NBA Finals. Shaq was top 10 big man let alone a #1 option before he peaked.

    Kobe also came in ready to be the best player in the league day 1. Del Harris benched Kobe for being young not because Kobe wasnít ready. Kobe second season he was clearly the 2nd best guard in the whole league. The last dance was Kobe 2nd season and Kobe lite up everyone in that all star game before that sat him like the Lakers sat him. Phill pulled him off the bench 1st day and they instantly make the finals. Imagine that. 20 year old Kobe performance for his first championship was elite. He made the list of 60 greatest moments in NBA history for the 60 year anniversary in the NBA. Kobe coming thru in the clutch with Shaq fouled out. Thatís basically Jordan hitting the game winner for Worthyís team level of greatness. They cemented Kobe performance for itís greatness. It wasnít Kobes peak but Kobe was already the best guard in the league. One year later Kobe was the #2 on the Lakers and #2 in the league rankings.
    Magic was great his rookie year but not at his peak yet. He was better in like say 87 as a developed player and being better is part of why he ranks in the top 10 all time whereas if he stayed at rookie level impact his whole career he would be great but not seen quite the same way individually. He still would have won rookie year but the point is individually he still got better later either way. He was absolutely a prodigy but he was not top 10 all time by the end of rookie year and did get better like basically every top all time great does as they get older and hit their prime/peak.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-30-2020 at 12:00 AM.

  14. #5849
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,855
    Thanks for talking Basketball with me. Felt good today talking ball going back and forth. I was supposed to be watching the NBA Western and Eastern finals game 7ís. Instead I got no basketball and some wild stuff going on in the News.

    Even at a time like this I find myself studying the game to no end. Even with all this wild stuff going on in the world, Basketball still feels right to me.

    Now back to it.

    Kobe is your favorite playerís , favorite player.

  15. #5850
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    9,124
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    We are looking at everything that happened and that is what happened. Kobe made a difference as one of, maybe even the best, 2nd options we have ever seen but that doesn't change anything I have said so far. I mean they still lost in 03 even if you do want to claim he was the best player that year it doesn't change anything. Against the Spurs Kobe shot a bunch and had like 32ppg but his efficiency was way down (shooting 43%) and Shaq's was much better (Kobe also had more turnovers than assists this series). If you mean this is the first year defenses started treating them similar or focusing more on him I think it was at least arguable here and that's why he dropped off against Spurs (103 ortg) and Pistons (90 ortg). Kobe was not a top 10 player peak all time in 01, I definitely disagree with that (if you mean in the league, fine but that doesn't change anything). I don't think 03 was his best all around season given the playoffs and his drop off when becoming more of a focal point of defenses.
    Well we disagree on that. See, with his drop off in efficiency it amounts to what is really a very negligible difference in the game. I don't want to go look it up right now, but it's probably going to end up being something like .2-.3 additional misses per game. I mean, sure that can be the difference between winning a playoff game or losing, but it's also still a pretty minimal difference in terms of his performance and that's why I don't think that numbers are all that meaningful.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •