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  1. #5806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There were whispers that Kobe was the best player in the league. Yes, the consensus was the shaq was better, but there was a minority that picked Kobe...and as I said he was still in the discussion for being the best player in the league. But you know, why don't you tell us more about how Pippen proved he could be the man by leading his team to the second round. I guess when there is a strong motive to prove a narrative, that counts as proving that you can be "the man". Pippen followed on that impressive showing by leading his team to basically .500 the next season before MJ's return. If that qualifies as showing that you can be the man, then lots of guys showed they could be "the man" (e.g., Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, heck Allen Houston led an 8th seeded team to the finals so I guess he also showed he could be the man). So yeah, if doing what Pippen did is evidence of that (like you said it was) then there should be no issue with anything anyone has to say about kobe and his 3 rings with shaq (you know, that 3-peat that hasn't been accomplished in over 2 decades and counting).
    Oh, whispers and a minority. I am sure there have been whispers Pau was better than Kobe when they won too since I have seen it myself. I am talking about in reality who was actually better (and most people knew it).

    Pippen is an all time great and you have used Love/Cousins as comparisons possibly better lol. Yes I did point out the obvious that he is better than guys like that and add context. You ran from the conversation though because there is no rational argument to back up that type of stance overall. Feel free to address how bad Pippen is to you down on that level of player at any point not sure why you would wanna bring it up and not do so?

  2. #5807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Except that actual numbers lol...this also ignores that with the rules of today, guys might not be taking those jumpers because they could get easier looks. And also, the rules have changed where shooters are more and more protected and now you basically can't touch a shooter on a shot or it's a foul. That changes how the defense can play a guy and how they can contest a shot. That's going to lead to more free throws on jumpers and/or more weakly contested jump shots, not to mention guys giving players a little more space because you can't body up an offensive player off the dribble anymore or its a foul.
    Type of shots not actual better shooting because of worst defense. If I look at where Lebron shots vs where Kobe shoot from it will be different on the chart. If I look at deandre Jordan vs Kareem dunks vs shy hook. Percentage will be different. Did not call DeAndre a better shooter or say if he played in Kareem era those dunks will be a lower percentage shot because of defense no. he took higher percentage shots lobs put backs etc on limited touches. D Wade is another example he shot higher than Kobe base on his style not defense. Westbrook is also a similar player when playing in 2018 does not inflate his percentage even while driving to the basket. His Style not defense or lack of.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-29-2020 at 05:22 PM.

  3. #5808
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Oh, whispers and a minority. I am sure there have been whispers Pau was better than Kobe when they won too since I have seen it myself. I am talking about in reality who was actually better (and most people knew it).

    Pippen is an all time great and you have used Love/Cousins as comparisons possibly better lol. Yes I did point out the obvious that he is better than guys like that and add context. You ran from the conversation though because there is no rational argument to back up that type of stance overall. Feel free to address how bad Pippen is to you down on that level of player at any point not sure why you would wanna bring it up and not do so?


    I remember the whispers or what did Vlade call them? Haters.

    So in your reality you remember where Gasol is a Kobe level player or as you put it, better then Kobe. That extract same year a player named Kevin Love broke onto the scene. He won most improved player of the year. Kevin Love got a average of 15 rebounding a game season and won the 3 point contest. Love was even getting all NBA selections over Gasol. That wasnít even ďPEAKĒ Kevin Love.

    No one would dare say a 21-22 year old Kevin Love was at his absolute best right? I would even say a 25 year old love wasnít at his prime. Still to young. That would be ridiculous.

    Lesser version of Love averaged more points and Rebounds and shot from the outside and was winning awards and starting over Gasol on All NBA teams.

    I think you just whispered that Kevin Love was a Kobe level player.

  4. #5809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    I remember the whispers or what did Vlade call them? Haters.

    So in your reality you remember where Gasol is a Kobe level player or as you put it, better then Kobe. That extract same year a player named Kevin Love broke onto the scene. He won most improved player of the year. Kevin Love got a average of 15 rebounding a game season and won the 3 point contest. Love was even getting all NBA selections over Gasol. That wasnít even ďPEAKĒ Kevin Love.

    No one would dare say a 21-22 year old Kevin Love was at his absolute best right? I would even say a 25 year old love wasnít at his prime. Still to young. That would be ridiculous.

    Lesser version of Love averaged more points and Rebounds and shot from the outside and was winning awards and starting over Gasol on All NBA teams.

    I think you just whispered that Kevin Love was a Kobe level player.
    No I don't think Gasol was as good as Kobe, there were whispers though and that is the criteria he chose to use haha. Are you now trying to argue love as better than Gasol? Does that make him better than Kobe due to the whispers at one point?

    Of course they would say guys that young aren't at their peak, isn't that just helping my point that neither was Kobe early on? Why would anyone push that he was the best player by then like Big Moves tried?

    I think you overrate Kevin Love if you take him all time over Pau Gasol. You guys can listen to the whispers all you want, I deal with reality and Shaq was the clear best player on his own team let alone the league at the time. You have your whispers though.

  5. #5810
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    Basically what Lebron did in G6 against the spurs but people forget that and said he was bailed out bc Ray Allen knocked down the 3.. Lebron had 16, nobody else had more than 5 on either team.
    Lebron was clearly the best player in Basketball during his time in Miami. Ray Allen got a big time shot the same way Paxton got a big time shot or Horry or so on. Lebron clearly was the force that got everyone on Miami to the dance.

    Lebron got his name next to and all the way around to Jordan himself. So I say Lebron made out just fine after that shot.

  6. #5811
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Oh, whispers and a minority. I am sure there have been whispers Pau was better than Kobe when they won too since I have seen it myself. I am talking about in reality who was actually better (and most people knew it).

    Pippen is an all time great and you have used Love/Cousins as comparisons possibly better lol. Yes I did point out the obvious that he is better than guys like that and add context. You ran from the conversation though because there is no rational argument to back up that type of stance overall. Feel free to address how bad Pippen is to you down on that level of player at any point not sure why you would wanna bring it up and not do so?
    Oh I didn't run from the conversation at all. I was leaving the thread and said I would come back to it. Why are you changing the topic though? Pippen only came up because of your laughable argument that Kobe and Pippen were similar during his titles with the bulls as Kobe was with shaq. You then had to resort to bringing up the season Pippen was the best player on the team to make a comparison and in doing so somehow ended up concluding that that season showed that Pippen could be the man, which is again laughable (the dude wouldn't even come out for a last second shot because it was designed for a better option and this is the guy who showed he could be the man that season, really???).

    And yes, I said that in his time in Minnesota, Love arguably had a better season that Pippen's best season. Similar arguments can be made for Cousins. I didn't say that they were better than Pippen, but that they were of a similar caliber player on par with the likes of guys like Butler and Klay. Pippen is a great all-around player, but had he not been on the Bulls, I'm not convinced he'd be thought of as particularly special (compared to other HOF players). What Pippen showed during his season and a half as the best player on the bulls was just how unfit and unable he was to be a true #1. For a #1 he wasn't very good. A team couldn't win a title with Pippen as the best player, not unless there were about 3-4 other Pippen-like players and a very deep bench where the pieces all fit very well together.

    Kobe may have been the second best player alongside Shaq, but he was a true #1 during 2 of those 3 titles (as other non-laker fans have come on here since and stated). The debate itself was actually pretty silly, because you had already acknowledged that they weren't comparable in 01, because Kobe was considerably better. I also acknowledged that they were comparable in 2000 and so the only real debate then was whether Kobe in 02 was on a different level than Pippen in 95 (since this was the only season that comes semi close to being comparable. It still wasn't really that close, but somehow you think that the dude who abandoned his team in the final seconds, led them to the second round and then managed to be a middle of the pack team the next season somehow showed that he could be the man during this time. Well, I guess I have far higher standards for what it takes to be the mean than you...Go figure.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-29-2020 at 05:29 PM.

  7. #5812
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    No I don't think Gasol was as good as Kobe, there were whispers though and that is the criteria he chose to use haha. Are you now trying to argue love as better than Gasol? Does that make him better than Kobe due to the whispers at one point?

    Of course they would say guys that young aren't at their peak, isn't that just helping my point that neither was Kobe early on? Why would anyone push that he was the best player by then like Big Moves tried?

    I think you overrate Kevin Love if you take him all time over Pau Gasol. You guys can listen to the whispers all you want, I deal with reality and Shaq was the clear best player on his own team let alone the league at the time. You have your whispers though.
    Iím using your formula. Kevin Love hit his peak in Cleveland if we follow it. Popular opinion is players peak at 27. Which matches up perfectly with his only championship. Yet why try to argue that Kevin Love as a #3 does not make a super team.

    I also never said Love was better then Gasol. I know better. Just the people who vote for All NBA teams said it. No whispers needed. They actually cemented it for everyone to see when you look back. They had Gasol a whole team/tier under 22 year old Love. These are the same guys who vote Kobe being ranked 14 or lower. So Gasol a #2 in LA is a #2 in Minnesota if we follow the writers.

    I seen you post Kobe much lower and I can post against it to pump it up. You use these types of ranking to justify Kobe rankings. How can you do that and still try and defend Gasol at his absolute best was better then Kevin Love at any point is his career? You be doing what you claim Big Moves03 is doing.

    You obviously agree that peak Kevin Love was not 15 rebounds and 20 points a game or 13 rebounds and 26 points a game. Because he was 23 when he accomplished this. Peak Love was championship Love and also a #3 on a eastern conference team. Itís like a dagger for your point about young players.

  8. #5813
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    No I don't think Gasol was as good as Kobe, there were whispers though and that is the criteria he chose to use haha. Are you now trying to argue love as better than Gasol? Does that make him better than Kobe due to the whispers at one point?

    Of course they would say guys that young aren't at their peak, isn't that just helping my point that neither was Kobe early on? Why would anyone push that he was the best player by then like Big Moves tried?

    I think you overrate Kevin Love if you take him all time over Pau Gasol. You guys can listen to the whispers all you want, I deal with reality and Shaq was the clear best player on his own team let alone the league at the time. You have your whispers though.
    Those aren't the whispers I'm talking about. I mean people in the media were starting to make the comparison. And when exactly did I try to push that he was the best player??? Go ahead and post where I said that Kobe was the best player on the team during those runs? I said he was in the conversation for being the best player. That's a far cry from saying that he was the best player on the team. Kobe was brought up in conversations of who the best player in the game was. Pippen was never in that discussion while with MJ or really ever. I brought up that Kobe was in the discussion to demonstrate how he was thought of as a player during the time. Not through this revisionist mumbo jumbo where most of you likely didn't see him play much if at all and are basing your judgements on boxscores and efficiency numbers that you don't understand.

  9. #5814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Oh I didn't run from the conversation at all. I was leaving the thread and said I would come back to it. Why are you changing the topic though? Pippen only came up because of your laughable argument that Kobe and Pippen were similar during his titles with the bulls as Kobe was with shaq. You then had to resort to bringing up the season Pippen was the best player on the team to make a comparison and in doing so somehow ended up concluding that that season showed that Pippen could be the man, which is again laughable (the dude wouldn't even come out for a last second shot because it was designed for a better option and this is the guy who showed he could be the man that season, really???).

    And yes, I said that in his time in Minnesota, Love arguably had a better season that Pippen's best season. Similar arguments can be made for Cousins. I didn't say that they were better than Pippen, but that they were of a similar caliber player on par with the likes of guys like Butler and Klay. Pippen is a great all-around player, but had he not been on the Bulls, I'm not convinced he'd be thought of as particularly special (compared to other HOF players). What Pippen showed during his season and a half as the best player on the bulls was just how unfit and unable he was to be a true #1. For a #1 he wasn't very good. A team couldn't win a title with Pippen as the best player, not unless there were about 3-4 other Pippen-like players and a very deep bench where the pieces all fit very well together.

    Kobe may have been the second best player alongside Shaq, but he was a true #1 during 2 of those 3 titles (as other non-laker fans have come on here since and stated). The debate itself was actually pretty silly, because you had already acknowledged that they weren't comparable in 01, because Kobe was considerably better. I also acknowledged that they were comparable in 2000 and so the only real debate then was whether Kobe in 02 was on a different level than Pippen in 95 (since this was the only season that comes semi close to being comparable. It still wasn't really that close, but somehow you think that the dude who abandoned his team in the final seconds, led them to the second round and then managed to be a middle of the pack team the next season somehow showed that he could be the man during this time. Well, I guess I have far higher standards for what it takes to be the mean than you...Go figure.
    What do you mean changing the topic? You literally said "why don't you tell us more about Pippen..." and then mentioned some things I said out of context. This is insanity, I was responding to your sidestepping in the first place lol. I used context/stats/accolades/data/lists and common sense. You just couldn't argue any of it and now want to reference it as if you had any legitimate points at all.

    As I said using a single years stats and so on, especially on losing teams (and the context I covered at the time) is not a good way to evaluate a player. I stand by that for sure and it's why you overrate Love and underrate Pippen in our conversations.

    He was not the #1 as that was Shaq and everyone knew it. He was a very good player but not at his peak nor the best player on his own team. While those runs are impressive they don't separate him individually as a player because he was in that situation most don't get to be as 2nd to arguably most dominant ever and because it wasn't the best level he played at he got better over time.

    Of course you end by pointing out you are a homer lakers fan just here to troll and bash my team. Thanks for exposing yourself for everyone to see.

  10. #5815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Iím using your formula. Kevin Love hit his peak in Cleveland if we follow it. Popular opinion is players peak at 27. Which matches up perfectly with his only championship. Yet why try to argue that Kevin Love as a #3 does not make a super team.

    I also never said Love was better then Gasol. I know better. Just the people who vote for All NBA teams said it. No whispers needed. They actually cemented it for everyone to see when you look back. They had Gasol a whole team/tier under 22 year old Love. These are the same guys who vote Kobe being ranked 14 or lower. So Gasol a #2 in LA is a #2 in Minnesota if we follow the writers.

    I seen you post Kobe much lower and I can post against it to pump it up. You use these types of ranking to justify Kobe rankings. How can you do that and still try and defend Gasol at his absolute best was better then Kevin Love at any point is his career? You be doing what you claim Big Moves03 is doing.

    You obviously agree that peak Kevin Love was not 15 rebounds and 20 points a game or 13 rebounds and 26 points a game. Because he was 23 when he accomplished this. Peak Love was championship Love and also a #3 on a eastern conference team. Itís like a dagger for your point about young players.
    The answer is because this dude, along with many others who post on here regularly are major LBJ fans who not so secretly disliked Kobe, probably because Kobe gave it to their teams for so many years and they had nothing to cling to so now of course they don't care about championships (when the heck have their teams ever won one?). It's rich for a timberwolves fan to come on here and argue about how championships don't matter (same for a Portland fan). of course championships don't matter to these guys, they don't know what the heck one even is lol

  11. #5816
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    What do you mean changing the topic? You literally said "why don't you tell us more about Pippen..." and then mentioned some things I said out of context. This is insanity, I was responding to your sidestepping in the first place lol. I used context/stats/accolades/data/lists and common sense. You just couldn't argue any of it and now want to reference it as if you had any legitimate points at all.

    As I said using a single years stats and so on, especially on losing teams (and the context I covered at the time) is not a good way to evaluate a player. I stand by that for sure and it's why you overrate Love and underrate Pippen in our conversations.

    He was not the #1 as that was Shaq and everyone knew it. He was a very good player but not at his peak nor the best player on his own team. While those runs are impressive they don't separate him individually as a player because he was in that situation most don't get to be as 2nd to arguably most dominant ever and because it wasn't the best level he played at he got better over time.

    Of course you end by pointing out you are a homer lakers fan just here to troll and bash my team. Thanks for exposing yourself for everyone to see.
    AGAIN...I never said he was THE #1, I said he was a #1, meaning that he was a true #1 but was on a team with a better player. If shaq joined mj, shaq would be the second best player but he would still be a true #1, same with Kobe. Getting better doesn't take away from being an elite superstar during that time.

    At the time, I said I was leaving the thread. I had very little trouble arguing the absurd point you made right before I left "that Pippen showed he could be the man". I'm assuming you realize how silly of an idea this was since you aren't picking this back up, so I will drop it.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-29-2020 at 05:41 PM.

  12. #5817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Iím using your formula. Kevin Love hit his peak in Cleveland if we follow it. Popular opinion is players peak at 27. Which matches up perfectly with his only championship. Yet why try to argue that Kevin Love as a #3 does not make a super team.

    I also never said Love was better then Gasol. I know better. Just the people who vote for All NBA teams said it. No whispers needed. They actually cemented it for everyone to see when you look back. They had Gasol a whole team/tier under 22 year old Love. These are the same guys who vote Kobe being ranked 14 or lower. So Gasol a #2 in LA is a #2 in Minnesota if we follow the writers.

    I seen you post Kobe much lower and I can post against it to pump it up. You use these types of ranking to justify Kobe rankings. How can you do that and still try and defend Gasol at his absolute best was better then Kevin Love at any point is his career? You be doing what you claim Big Moves03 is doing.

    You obviously agree that peak Kevin Love was not 15 rebounds and 20 points a game or 13 rebounds and 26 points a game. Because he was 23 when he accomplished this. Peak Love was championship Love and also a #3 on a eastern conference team. Itís like a dagger for your point about young players.
    My formula is that players hit their peak when they are at their best. Love is tough to tell because he took a drastic role shift in MN for a few years and then went to play 3rd option on a team he didn't fit. I bet if you catered to him the same way on a losing team at some point in Cle he still could have put up big stats but once Lebron left he wasn't that guy or was exposed as only capable of doing so in Adelman system. His peak is tougher to judge but I don't think saying Kobe later on was better than 00-02 version is that crazy at all. Do you even disagree with that statement yourself?

    So what is your point here? That we shouldn't base everything on accolades from a couple years because they could be off? My point is you look at all context to see who a player is and so on not just ever use a single accolade or stat here or there that is your guys narratives.

    If you mean the one where I had him 17 that was just to expose the hypocrisy of big moves and I have said that. He is up by Russell/Hakeem for me if you are referencing that list but it wasn't even necessarily my real exact one.

    I agree Klove put up stats in a specific offense catered for him to do so (especially at the expense of getting back defensively) for a couple years. Peak Love has nothing to do with changing roles? You can be a better player in a much worse role for your stats? I think I am missing something, most of what you say helps my arguments as I am constantly calling for context.

  13. #5818
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Except Drexler was never gonna be in the conversation for top 10.

    Who is the highest rated player you have with no rings?
    If Drexler's team won in 1990 and 1992, why not? Fits your narrative at least. Numbers, rings etc.

    I'd guess Elgin Baylor, if he qualifies as I think he was given a ring anyway.

  14. #5819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    AGAIN...I never said he was THE #1, I said he was a #1, meaning that he was a true #1 but was on a team with a better player. If shaq joined mj, shaq would be the second best player but he would still be a true #1, same with Kobe. Getting better doesn't take away from being an elite superstar during that time.

    At the time, I said I was leaving the thread. I had very little trouble arguing the absurd point you made right before I left "that Pippen showed he could be the man". I'm assuming you realize how silly of an idea this was since you aren't picking this back up, so I will drop it.
    Anyone can be a #1, just make sure their teammates are worse. Could he be a good #1? Well people have posted the Lakers wins/Losses with/without Shaq and Kobe before and they only dropped off one way. We don't actually know because he never was one for his team until later on he benefited greatly from having one of the most dominant #1's ever in taking the attention of a defense.

    I am not backing up things I wasn't saying nor re posting all the stats/data/analysis/accolades and so on covered that you couldn't refute at the time.

  15. #5820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The answer is because this dude, along with many others who post on here regularly are major LBJ fans who not so secretly disliked Kobe, probably because Kobe gave it to their teams for so many years and they had nothing to cling to so now of course they don't care about championships (when the heck have their teams ever won one?). It's rich for a timberwolves fan to come on here and argue about how championships don't matter (same for a Portland fan). of course championships don't matter to these guys, they don't know what the heck one even is lol
    Great basketball analysis I would expect from someone with no bias. Not at all a fanboy whining that everyone else thinks his opinions are crazy.

    Timberwolves fans aren't lesser people or not get to have opinions on things just because the team we root for is worse. Same with Portland fans. It is amazing I have to explain that on a forum but I guess all you have is bashing the team I root for.

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