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  1. #5731
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Shaq’s presence made that non prime Kobe the most efficient version of himself. Without Shaqs gravity Kobe can’t do that.

    Secondly that’s one team who Kobe player more than probably any other player

    Third Bron is better in the playoffs overall and better in the finals against better competition than Kobe so one series means d——
    Kobe had zero “gravity” against Boston tho. So that makes Kobe game 7 even more epic. Kobe still found a way to win even without gravity. Kobe legacy still growing it seems.

    Yes Kobe did eliminate the Spurs more then anyone else. Kobe lost to the Spurs only when he had Shaq’s gravity. Never without the gravity.

  2. #5732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yes, that's fair, but even without that the difference is going to end up being very minimal
    Yes if the other 12 guys fits better. Hey if Kobe dont shoot and miss Pau and Odom cant rebound and get a easy offensive rebound. Boom Easy 2 points. I guess thats one way to look at it. After all its which team ends the game with the most points not the best Player.

  3. #5733
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    But if team efficiency is higher than the inflated passing stats are justified. And it’s been shown that players fg% raises quite a bit when they shoot from passes from Lebron as apposed to shooting it by themselves or from other teamates passes. Where as Kobe’s inefficiency leaded to worse overall team efficieny.
    Because LBJ is basically the offense, it makes sense that others would shoot a higher fg% from his passes then form others because when a shot occurs form other guys and it leads to a shot, it is more likely that something didn't go as planned. Also, Kobe's lower shooting percentage, again is going to lead to a little over more missed shot per game. Kobe's teams however have been much better at offensive rebounding than LBJ's teams (likely because kobe warps the floor in ways that LBJ does not (since kobe is a much more dynamic offensive player) and that opens the floor up for his teammates (that difference far offsets one extra miss per game).

  4. #5734
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Yes if the other 12 guys fits better. Hey if Kobe dont shoot and miss Pau and Odom cant rebound and get a easy offensive rebound. Boom Easy 2 points. I guess thats one way to look at it. After all its which team ends the game with the most points not the best Player.
    Well the numbers show though that those offensive rebounds seem to be a lot easier for Kobe's teams that LBJ's teams. The player responsible for that is likely kobe so that is huge and needs to be factored into who the better player is because the point of the game is winning not who puts up better boxscore numbers.

  5. #5735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Because LBJ is basically the offense, it makes sense that others would shoot a higher fg% from his passes then form others because when a shot occurs form other guys and it leads to a shot, it is more likely that something didn't go as planned. Also, Kobe's lower shooting percentage, again is going to lead to a little over more missed shot per game. Kobe's teams however have been much better at offensive rebounding than LBJ's teams (likely because kobe warps the floor in ways that LBJ does not (since kobe is a much more dynamic offensive player) and that opens the floor up for his teammates (that difference far offsets one extra miss per game).
    Nawh man kobe loved taking bad shots. Kobe would shot over 4 guys than pass. Thats not Lebron hes going to pass in that situation. Lebron just takes better shots and trust the other guys to shoot. He will make the basketball play. This is a career thing not one game. Hes been doing that for years.

  6. #5736
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Teams with low efficiency generally loose to the team with higher efficiency during the same game. So it’s undeniable that higher efficiency with the same number of shots equals much more likely chance of winning.
    Sure, but that's a team statistic, it's different from an individual statistic. If you have a player who comes in the game and breaks the defense down every time, causing double and triple teams to converge on him and the guy throws it up for a miss but that leads to an easy offensive put backs, that's just as good as if he would've scored it or if he got an assists. On paper though, it would look like this player is horrible since he would've missed all of his shots and had no assists or pts, but he would really be almost entirely responsible for those put backs. His impact on the game would be huge, but according to the present metric, that guy would've sucked. The end result though would be positive. The game is about winning not about getting these other numbers that have no direct bearing on the game.

  7. #5737
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Nawh man kobe loved taking bad shots. Kobe would shot over 4 guys than pass. Thats not Lebron hes going to pass in that situation. Lebron just takes better shots and trust the other guys to shoot. He will make the basketball play. This is a career thing not one game. Hes been doing that for years.
    Bro, I've shown you the math (this isn't really a debatable point at this point). Bad shot or not, the difference ends up being about 1 additional missed shot per game...kobe's teams were usually much, much better at offensive rebounding though and so that single missed shot doesn't really factor in. Kobe demands more attention. He's harder to guard. This opens things up for his teammates (that's where those extra offensive rebounds are coming from). LBJ might be taking better shots, but at the end of the day, the difference is about 1 extra missed shot per game (and when we factor in ft% it becomes almost entirely negligible).

  8. #5738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Well the numbers show though that those offensive rebounds seem to be a lot easier for Kobe's teams that LBJ's teams. The player responsible for that is likely kobe so that is huge and needs to be factored into who the better player is because the point of the game is winning not who puts up better boxscore numbers.
    Lakers have a history for targeting the best bigs in the league. No surprise there. Each time Lakers won they had one of the best front court in the league. Maybe except show time era. Those rebounds is not a refection of Kobe but rather how Lakers construct teams.

  9. #5739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Kobe had zero “gravity” against Boston tho. So that makes Kobe game 7 even more epic. Kobe still found a way to win even without gravity. Kobe legacy still growing it seems.

    Yes Kobe did eliminate the Spurs more then anyone else. Kobe lost to the Spurs only when he had Shaq’s gravity. Never without the gravity.
    Yep, and the spurs were an in and out 3-pointer from losing to the lakers in 03 and that was likely the difference between a 4-peat. The closest anyone has gotten since the Celtics in the 60s (I think).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-28-2020 at 11:20 PM.

  10. #5740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Bro, I've shown you the math (this isn't really a debatable point at this point). Bad shot or not, the difference ends up being about 1 additional missed shot per game...kobe's teams were usually much, much better at offensive rebounding though and so that single missed shot doesn't really factor in. Kobe demands more attention. He's harder to guard. This opens things up for his teammates (that's where those extra offensive rebounds are coming from). LBJ might be taking better shots, but at the end of the day, the difference is about 1 extra missed shot per game (and when we factor in ft% it becomes almost entirely negligible).
    So you going to say the center shooting 57% wont make up for 45% ?
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 11:17 PM.

  11. #5741
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lakers have a history for targeting the best bigs in the league. No surprise there. Each time Lakers won they had one of the best front court in the league. Maybe except show time era. Those rebounds is not a refection of Kobe but rather how Lakers construct teams.
    Nah, this goes back to before they had those bigs. In 05 for instance they were 10, same as 2006. They didn't have any dominant bigs at that time. For comparison, the lakers right now are 10th (with one of the biggest teams in the league and elite big man and rebounder in AD).

  12. #5742
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    So you going to say the center shooting 57% wont make up for 45% ?
    Depends on how many shots the'yre taking. Kobe and LBJ happen to take almost the same number of shots per game so that's why we can make that pretty direct comparison. Again dude, go do the math yourself. It's pretty straightforward. You can prove it to yourself if you don't believe me.

  13. #5743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nah, this goes back to before they had those bigs. In 05 for instance they were 10, same as 2006. They didn't have any dominant bigs at that time. For comparison, the lakers right now are 10th (with one of the biggest teams in the league and elite big man and rebounder in AD).
    Are you talking about 7th seed Lakers? At that point why would you not send two guys at Kobe Chances are high they would not win. Sure Brown, Mhim etc 7 foot tall can grab some missed shots. 2 easy points.

    More missed shots more chances to rebound. Besides Davis Plays out the paint a bit and they Go small at times. I think they rank 2nd fg%
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 11:34 PM.

  14. #5744
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Are you talking about 7th seed Lakers? At that point why would you not send two guys at Kobe Chances are high they would not win. Sure Brown, Mhim etc 7 foot tall can grab some missed shots. 2 easy points.
    So let me get this straight, kobe draws double teams and his team is in the top 10 in offensive rebounds with no real dominant bigs and you dismiss it as "sure the team sucked so they just sent double teams at kobe". Then in other seasons where they were elite you dismiss it as "sure, they had dominant bigs". If chances are high they wouldnt win, why even bother double teaming kobe? Those opportunities are there because kobe is drawing in defenses, because the defense needs to do that in order to keep him from going off.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-28-2020 at 11:49 PM.

  15. #5745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    So let me get this straight, kobe draws double teams and his team is in the top 10 in offensive rebounds with no real dominant bigs and you dismiss it as "sure the team sucked so they just sent double teams at kobe". Then in other seasons where they were elite you dismiss as "sure, they had dominant bigs". If chances are high they wouldnt win, why even bother double teaming kobe? Those opportunities are there because kobe is drawing in defenses, because the defense needs to do that in order to keep him from going off.
    I think a more telling stat would be Your team rebounds vs your Opponent not overall teams. How much you out rebound the other team. Again more missed shots more chances to rebound. I mean if i look at a team with a high offensive rebounding rate i will think they miss a lot of shots. Diffensive rebound is more telling how well you defended forcing them into a bad shot rebound the ball and turn it into points. I am not sure offensive rebounds are a good thing. Then i will start looking at the team shooting percentage. What kind of shots are they taking and missing.

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