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  1. #5641
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    jesus christ... this is the same as saying well this player said kobe is better even though they are big boner fans... see the same 4 people in this thread including you. Its the same as shaq saying iverson is top 5 all time to him because he is so damn tough for his size... or the old school *** hats thinking those old school players are better just because they played them tough one time lol.... my god the logic

  2. #5642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    LeBron was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the one spot from 09-17. He was the undisputed best in 2012, and 2013. Kobe was a top level talent at least top three and could be argued for the top spot from 03-10. He was undisputed best in 06-08 most would agree. Also, most would agree top five since 2001 on to 2010. Shaq was the undisputed best from about 99-02 and top level from about 99-05. Though his peak was the best we'd ever seen. Hakeem reigned the top spot pretty much undisputedly from 94-96. He was never in the conversation however, because all those other years in his absolute peak, Jordan was there. Though it could be argued that Hakeem was the most complete center of all-time.




    Yes, we have to take Kobe's 09 title into account as well. I just couldn't see Kobe drawing attention to a confrontation he had with a player following an NBA Finals game where he was down in a series in a press conference and then using his sway to lobby behind the scenes to get him suspended so that he could gain an advantage to get back in the series the way LeBron did to Draymond. Kobe is not the type of guy who wold want to win that way. He would fall on his sword before resorting to those tactics. It is that sort of mentality why I personally give Kobe a slight edge over LBJ. Mamba Mentality lol. Though, I do not have a problem with people ranking LBJ slightly higher as well. It's all about what you prefer and LBJ did lead a team to three titles as the best player while Kobe only did it twice. The biggest thing Kobe has going against him imho is that his first three titles came with Shaq as the best player. Kobe did take down a really good Denver team in 09 with Chauncey who is very underrated and easily a top pg of his era imho. Kobe also beat more 50 plus win teams in his time and had to make it through the West while LeBron had an easier time in the East.



    It's not only Laker fans bro. Two of the main dudes on here arguing are Knicks fans and the other guy I've seen a Boston fan. The only one I've seen with a Lakers logo is McAllenTx. There are many former players who rank Kobe higher and or do not have LBJ in their top five and a few members of the main steam media who do not as well. Though I would argue the media is always subject to recency bias and marketing agendas, which is why I always say it's best to wait a few years after the player retires to get a true idea of what their ranking truly should be. I think that is more than fair to say. It is not the forgone conclusion you are making it out to be. We seem to agree on where Kobe ranks, so you can't really accuse me of homerism there. Top 8-11 is very fair to me and it seems you agree as well. We only don't agree on LBJ, Russell, Wilt and Magic. I think Magic has to be top five because he is the undisputed best at his position though. I can understand ranking Bird ahead of him slightly though, as I agree, his peak was easily better and I think overall, he adds more dynamic and impact to a team. It's mainly the accomplishments of Magic and his acceptance as the best pg of all-time that I have him one above Larry on my list.

    Here is a poll from Aug 2, 2017 with 90997 votes that has Kobe ahead of LeBron with 60% of the people agreeing. This is a year after his Cleveland title too. Not sure what has really change on his resume since then to change the outcome honestly. Not really a majority of people agreeing that LBJ has taken him all-time. Here is the proof. More proof than anyone on his site has been able to produce too might I add. https://www.espn.com/sportsnation/st...es-kobe-bryant
    Nah, not at all Kobe is widely considered one of the better longevity careers but his peak never hit top of the league. Lebron was widely considered top of the league 2012-2016 imo unlike any point in Kobe's career being considered better than the rest of the league. I don't even think it is that close, Kobe/Duncan and Kobe/Lebron are legit debates where Lebron/Kd/Curry not as much.

    I am always sure you will find ways to not see Lebron the best but do so for Kobe lol. We have been through this whole feelings and opinions thing given your clear agenda/bias. If you have to push that Denver team I think we can kinda see my point in the competition when Kobe won. On top of the much better competition Lebrons individual performances were better too, the best team Kobe beat as the main focus was Celtics and that wasn't the best overall for him individually. Kobe has had a very good career but he wasn't clearly on top of the game like other stars individually which leaves him in that back end of the 11 convo.

    I don't know who the other guys you reference are but I know NYK has always been this way and the two laker fans on top seem to be the most consistent arguers. Mcallen you mention recently jumped in and I have quoted another along the way I think twice breaking down the narrative he tried to push with legit context lakersfan. I have seen it plenty on this forum the way the laker fans just swarm into action with extreme bias in tribal form (not even just this topic but PSD games too). I am not saying every person ever but I think it is mostly those tribal/extreme type of fans that deny Lebron's greatness at this point. You see the arguments and how hypocritical Big Moves has been throughout. If the arguments are ridiculous you can call out bias, just because you have Kobe well placed 8-11 doesn't mean there is no bias influencing you opinion on Lebron. I don't even understand the argument for Magic given the context of talent and how important you say it is if you win with that. He was more reliant on it in his career on individual level.

    I mean we have been through this on the polls with others but even without the obvious issues 60% isn't that drastic if there is even a sizable margin of error. This isn't more than anyone has shared haha plenty has been this is an extremely long thread. You just like saying things without actual context/proof/reality. I will show a couple lists all time, Lebron top 2 both so guess that's right since I also shared a ranker fan vote too earlier in thread confirming others agree.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...s-all-nos-10-1
    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/t...lebron-and-mj/
    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time
    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams...on-james-no-2/

  3. #5643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I think the fact that your team is in the tougher conference and can still contend without you only strengthens the argument. Bron playing in the Weak East also means he was on one of those badly managed Eastern Teams. You guys act like Bron going out West wouldn't have resulted in him also having a better team around him. Put him on the Spurs with Duncan, they never lose for example. Thats what a luxury Shaq was.

    The conferences dont change much, thats like ******** on Magic for coasting through the weak West.
    This is the exact thing I've been talking about but now instead of a one sided but going against Kobe it's a one sided if in favor of LBJ. If LBJ played in the West.....

    Why are you leaving out if Kobe played in the East?

    If Kobe played for the Cavs his 1st seven years he came into the league he would've averaged about 32 PPG but no rings, then went to another team to team up with Bosh and Wade at only 25 years old I could confidently say they would've won at least 2 rings in them 4 years together. Maybe 3 or even all 4. And then went on back to Cleveland when he'd only been 29 years old and team up with Irving and Love, I can say they'd of made the Finals all them years. Winning I can't say, but with the help of the NBA sure.

  4. #5644
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Nah, not at all Kobe is widely considered one of the better longevity careers but his peak never hit top of the league. Lebron was widely considered top of the league 2012-2016 imo unlike any point in Kobe's career being considered better than the rest of the league. I don't even think it is that close, Kobe/Duncan and Kobe/Lebron are legit debates where Lebron/Kd/Curry not as much.
    Statistically, no. Kobe never had the overwhelming advantage over his peers. Though I though we agreed it wasn't all about stats. Then LeBron would not be the clear cut past 2013 as well. It's about if it was debatable or not. Go look up all the polls from 03-10 and tell me where Kobe ranks for the most part on them in relation to his peers. from 06-08 it was the general consensus that he was the best. If not, tell me who was those years starting from 06-08. I'm waiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I am always sure you will find ways to not see Lebron the best but do so for Kobe lol. We have been through this whole feelings and opinions thing given your clear agenda/bias. If you have to push that Denver team I think we can kinda see my point in the competition when Kobe won. On top of the much better competition Lebron's individual performances were better too, the best team Kobe beat as the main focus was Celtics and that wasn't the best overall for him individually. Kobe has had a very good career but he wasn't clearly on top of the game like other stars individually which leaves him in that back end of the 11 convo.
    Talk about feelings and you are now assuming bias on me lol. I could easily say the same of you. As I said, it's debatable between the two. Many NBA greats have come out and questioned how LeBron managed to finagle himself into the GOAT debate and said that it's wasn't even clear cut he was even past Kobe. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/...21kadvnvwpyrmm I have no agenda bro. Much to your chagrin. Most of the basketball heads I respect and converse with don't have LeBron top five. Again, check out Bruce Blitz's top ten. He was a huge LeBron supported who recently recanted on his ways of seeing the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUFrOd4yVDQ Some really good stuff in this list.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I don't know who the other guys you reference are but I know NYK has always been this way and the two laker fans on top seem to be the most consistent arguers. Mcallen you mention recently jumped in and I have quoted another along the way I think twice breaking down the narrative he tried to push with legit context lakersfan. I have seen it plenty on this forum the way the laker fans just swarm into action with extreme bias in tribal form (not even just this topic but PSD games too). I am not saying every person ever but I think it is mostly those tribal/extreme type of fans that deny Lebron's greatness at this point. You see the arguments and how hypocritical Big Moves has been throughout. If the arguments are ridiculous you can call out bias, just because you have Kobe well placed 8-11 doesn't mean there is no bias influencing you opinion on Lebron. I don't even understand the argument for Magic given the context of talent and how important you say it is if you win with that. He was more reliant on it in his career on individual level.
    I've been all over the internet and I've seen a lot of people who are non-bias and most don't have LeBron top five. I would argue quite the opposite in fact, that most of the casual fans are bias and influenced by media and droves of Bron fans who tell them they are crazy not to have him top five and act like they are haters if not. It's all good. Not a popular opinion around here I get that. I've been to plenty of sites and YouTube channels where it's more excepted he is not top five so it's all good, you guys are not gonna influence me into changing my opinion anytime soon. I have though about it and am confident where I stand. It's quite funny you say I am finding ways to argue Kobe over him, when I have said repeatedly that I have to problem with people slightly putting him ahead of Kobe lol. Just not either of them in the top five. LeBron still has time though. I'm honestly leaning Kobe in here mostly for arguments sake and because you guys are so gung-ho LeBron. Like I said, I could go either way and I like honing my debating skills so please keep on brining it on. You guys should be making arguments for the guys I clearly put over LeBron like Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Shaq honestly. Guys like Kobe, Wilt, Hakeem, could go either way for me in relation to LeBron. If only you knew how many Kobe stans I have had to school over the years who had him top five and or number two all time next to Jordan. I could easily argue that it's just easier to fit me into a narrative that I must be pro Kobe and anti LeBron to justify your love and bias for him. See how that works?

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I mean we have been through this on the polls with others but even without the obvious issues 60% isn't that drastic if there is even a sizable margin of error. This isn't more than anyone has shared haha plenty has been this is an extremely long thread. You just like saying things without actual context/proof/reality. I will show a couple lists all time, Lebron top 2 both so guess that's right since I also shared a ranker fan vote too earlier in thread confirming others agree.
    I'm just trying to show you guys that it's not a forgone conclusion. Just because a lot of you on this site feel that way, it's clearly not how the rest of the world feels. That ranker poll was lol btw. Iverson at number 12. Come on man. It's just a popularity contest. Six was too high for Kobe anyways and Durant at number 22. Wow. How many old school basketball heads would use ranker anyways. Seems like a lot of newer millennials would be up on that. Judging by the results as well. Total garbage. I also don't pride myself on sharing popular opinions of the "casual fan" either. I can think for myself and back up what I say. Unlike most of the LeBron supporters on here who can't even hold a simple convo. Not throwing you in that mix at all. you have been more than obliging.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 05-28-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  5. #5645
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Nah, not at all Kobe is widely considered one of the better longevity careers but his peak never hit top of the league. Lebron was widely considered top of the league 2012-2016 imo unlike any point in Kobe's career being considered better than the rest of the league. I don't even think it is that close, Kobe/Duncan and Kobe/Lebron are legit debates where Lebron/Kd/Curry not as much.

    I am always sure you will find ways to not see Lebron the best but do so for Kobe lol. We have been through this whole feelings and opinions thing given your clear agenda/bias. If you have to push that Denver team I think we can kinda see my point in the competition when Kobe won. On top of the much better competition Lebrons individual performances were better too, the best team Kobe beat as the main focus was Celtics and that wasn't the best overall for him individually. Kobe has had a very good career but he wasn't clearly on top of the game like other stars individually which leaves him in that back end of the 11 convo.

    I don't know who the other guys you reference are but I know NYK has always been this way and the two laker fans on top seem to be the most consistent arguers. Mcallen you mention recently jumped in and I have quoted another along the way I think twice breaking down the narrative he tried to push with legit context lakersfan. I have seen it plenty on this forum the way the laker fans just swarm into action with extreme bias in tribal form (not even just this topic but PSD games too). I am not saying every person ever but I think it is mostly those tribal/extreme type of fans that deny Lebron's greatness at this point. You see the arguments and how hypocritical Big Moves has been throughout. If the arguments are ridiculous you can call out bias, just because you have Kobe well placed 8-11 doesn't mean there is no bias influencing you opinion on Lebron. I don't even understand the argument for Magic given the context of talent and how important you say it is if you win with that. He was more reliant on it in his career on individual level.

    I mean we have been through this on the polls with others but even without the obvious issues 60% isn't that drastic if there is even a sizable margin of error. This isn't more than anyone has shared haha plenty has been this is an extremely long thread. You just like saying things without actual context/proof/reality. I will show a couple lists all time, Lebron top 2 both so guess that's right since I also shared a ranker fan vote too earlier in thread confirming others agree.

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...s-all-nos-10-1
    https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/t...lebron-and-mj/
    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...rs-of-all-time
    https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams...on-james-no-2/
    I've been staying away from this thread because I thought it was pointless. Too many differences in their careers to compare the 2 IMO.

    I just got tired of seeing all the pro LBJ guys only giving one sided arguments. They point out blemishes on Kobe's resume but leave out the ones on LBJs. To me it should be put everything on the table from both players or none from either.

  6. #5646
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    This is the exact thing I've been talking about but now instead of a one sided but going against Kobe it's a one sided if in favor of LBJ. If LBJ played in the West.....

    Why are you leaving out if Kobe played in the East?

    If Kobe played for the Cavs his 1st seven years he came into the league he would've averaged about 32 PPG but no rings, then went to another team to team up with Bosh and Wade at only 25 years old I could confidently say they would've won at least 2 rings in them 4 years together. Maybe 3 or even all 4. And then went on back to Cleveland when he'd only been 29 years old and team up with Irving and Love, I can say they'd of made the Finals all them years. Winning I can't say, but with the help of the NBA sure.
    nope... it wouldnt have happend... he would have demanded a trade on draft night or as soon as he wasnt winning per kobe.

  7. #5647
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    nope... it wouldnt have happend... he would have demanded a trade on draft night or as soon as he wasnt winning per kobe.
    He had no clout to demand a trade at that time lol. He threatened to play in Europe or overseas if he couldn't go to the Lakers. Not sure if that was all his doing, or if Jerry West had a hand in that as well. We saw just how slick Jerry West was in the whole Kawhi situation this past summer though now didn't we lol. Dude had those teams all eating out of his hand in oder to buy time to get PG13 over there. Now that is some slick GMing.

  8. #5648
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    He had no clout to demand a trade at that time lol. He threatened to play in Europe or overseas if he couldn't go to the Lakers. Not sure if that was all his doing, or if Jerry West had a hand in that as well. We saw just how slick Jerry West was in the whole Kawhi situation this past summer though now didn't we lol. Dude had those teams all eating out of his hand in oder to buy time to get PG13 over there. Now that is some slick GMing.
    I'm sure he also had a hand in Kawhi load managing twice in the first 2 games. I would say that West is stratigecally load managing Kawhi to set the narrative early knowing that one of LBJs biggest flaws is his pride and he likes to set the narrative. No way was he gonna appear to be following anyone's elses, especially not Kawhis. Sure enough he came out and said later that he don't load manage, if he can play he will play. Uhmmm he's sat out games in the past due to rest lol.

    I'm sure West wanted the Lakers in the playoffs with 36 year old LBJ on very little rest and his Clippers well rested.
    Last edited by McAllen Tx; 05-28-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  9. #5649
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    This is the exact thing I've been talking about but now instead of a one sided but going against Kobe it's a one sided if in favor of LBJ. If LBJ played in the West.....

    Why are you leaving out if Kobe played in the East?

    If Kobe played for the Cavs his 1st seven years he came into the league he would've averaged about 32 PPG but no rings, then went to another team to team up with Bosh and Wade at only 25 years old I could confidently say they would've won at least 2 rings in them 4 years together. Maybe 3 or even all 4. And then went on back to Cleveland when he'd only been 29 years old and team up with Irving and Love, I can say they'd of made the Finals all them years. Winning I can't say, but with the help of the NBA sure.
    I point that out before. I am not to sure Kobe body would of held up. Wade, D Rose etc in the east with not so great teams came out hard. Thing is when your ask to carry a heavy load and a coach dont manage well it can lead to injuries. If kobe played in the east the ring count his legacy would have been vastly different. Its not about east or west but the players ability. This is no knock on james Harden but Kobe in the east with no Phil can look like James Harden today. In addition to that Harden is doing that without high flying acrobatic plays. Kobe body would have taking a beating with his style of play.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-28-2020 at 07:46 AM.

  10. #5650
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    No way would Kobe have languished in Cleveland for 7 years. Zero chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    It's not only Laker fans bro. Two of the main dudes on here arguing are Knicks fans and the other guy I've seen a Boston fan. The only one I've seen with a Lakers logo is McAllenTx.
    Thatís funny, that Boston fan said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    Again, LeBron James is one of the top 3 basketball players in the entire history of the sport. He should be held to an absurdly high standard. I feel I am reasonable here - you'll never hear me criticize Lebron for his first CLE tenure losses to DET, BOS (1st time) or SA. I do think he deserves a little bit of flack for the loss to ORL and second loss to BOS, but not a ton. I will never criticize him for his losses to GS. Even acknowledging that he is the GOAT, I just don't think he had a fair chance against those teams. I won't criticize him for that.
    That doesnít seem to help your narrative and Ewing has always been a Lebron hater but I think he even agrees Lebron is higher (gotta look for that one). Oh yeah, second post:

    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    LeBron [emoji2373]
    And it sure does seem like KnicksorBust doesnít agree. Oh, and you yourself said that you donít care, youíre just debating for debating sakes.


    Back to Romeo:
    Though I would argue the media is always subject to recency bias and marketing agendas, which is why I always say it's best to wait a few years after the player retires to get a true idea of what their ranking truly should be.
    But then you say:

    Here is a poll from Aug 2, 2017 with 90997 votes that has Kobe ahead of LeBron with 60% of the people agreeing. This is a year after his Cleveland title too. Not sure what has really change on his resume since then to change the outcome honestly
    Lovely contradiction.

    Also, Kobe just retired (recency bias, you know) and with Durant joining the Warriors and the rest of the Cavs regressing, people were starting to feel Lebronís time was over.



    And why do you keep saying that Lebron pulled some strings and got Draymond suspended? He was up to his eyeballs in techs that postseason from all of his nut shots and he just tried to punch an opposing player in the balls in Game 4. Sounds pretty standard but this comes up against LeBron more than the Kings/ref stuff during one of Kobeís championship years. Is there proof that he pulled strings behind closed doors or are you just reaching/making that up?
    Last edited by Saddletramp; 05-28-2020 at 07:58 AM.

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    So you guys think LBJ coming straight out of HS with the self named nickname "King James" and already being called "The Chosen One" would've gotten along with Shaq who gave himself the nickname "Superman"? How would this so called there can only be 1 alpha thing worked out? If they would've won who would've gotten the credit? You guys honestly think that either would've been content being looked at as Robin? You won cause you were on Shaqs team or you won cause you were on LBJs team?

  12. #5652
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So you guys think LBJ coming straight out of HS with the self named nickname "King James" and already being called "The Chosen One" would've gotten along with Shaq who gave himself the nickname "Superman"? How would this so called there can only be 1 alpha thing worked out? If they would've won who would've gotten the credit? You guys honestly think that either would've been content being looked at as Robin? You won cause you were on Shaqs team or you won cause you were on LBJs team?
    The same way it worked with Kobe it would of worked if you landed a coach that was good at managing.

  13. #5653
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    Cavs messed up trading Carlos Boozer

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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Iím sure you addressed it but itís so illogical that I forgot based on the fact it doesnít make sense. Itís like saying 10 is a larger number than 9 but 90 is larger than 100 because the closer you get to 101 bigger numbers can now be larger than smaller numbers. It literally makes no sense.

    Just think if I made 20 players with the genetics of Greek Gods and out then in the nba. Now that the bar has been raised and my twenty players are now now super stars, Kobe and Lebron would be outside the top 20 and cease to be superstars. They would just be borderline all stars. Now by your logic, Lebron would suddenly definitely be better than Kobe because now we can use the same Logic we applied to Kevin Love when he was not a superstar.

    You see it doesnít work, nothing changed with there game, just the league around them.

    Same with your rings argument. Jordan is the best because he was better than everyone else. If we sourrounded him with Kevin Loves Wolves teamates and they never one a ring but dominated other players and showed he was the best player ever then he still be the best ever rings or not.

    Even Larry Bird agrees with me after sweeping Jordan and the Bulls off the court. He called him god. He didnít need to see Jordan win a ring to know he was the best, all he had to do was share the court with him and not rely on a team accomplishment to crown him as such.

    Only you guys need to use team accomplishments to crown individual players and again, it makes zero sense at all. If your hypothesis for ranking players doesnít work universally then itís a bad hypothesis and canít be trusted. The more universal the rating system, the more worthy the system.

    10 > 9 and 100 > 90
    The things is, you need to prove that you're the best and you don't prove that by having great numbers and losing. We can't actually directly measure who is better because there isn't a direct thing to look at (like a blood test or an X-ray) so we're gathering evidence to support our assessments. Performance in the game provides one level of assessment, but it's limited because most elite superstars can put up incredible numbers, but this will often come at the expense of playing winning basketball so it becomes a tradeoff between statistics and learning to play with your teammates to win. In the example you provided, LBJ and Kobe wouldn't be putting up the numbers they have nor would they have similar roles so the assessment would necessarily be different. So it's not the case that nothing changes in your example, their roles change.

    My assessment is based on roles. Different assessment for different roles. That's very typical across many domains (and is actually typical in the most jobs). The criteria by which you are judged in one role changes quite often in a different role. I'll give you an example, in college, you are assessed based on your grades and that is considered the most important factor for assessment, but in most graduate programs (e.g., masters, Ph.D) grades become inconsequential and no one really cares about that anymore; it becomes almost entirely about research and writing. However, you typically need good grades to get into a graduate program. In the NBA, individual numbers matter to become a superstar, but once you're a superstar, it becomes much more about winning titles and far less about your individual production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So you guys think LBJ coming straight out of HS with the self named nickname "King James" and already being called "The Chosen One" would've gotten along with Shaq who gave himself the nickname "Superman"? How would this so called there can only be 1 alpha thing worked out? If they would've won who would've gotten the credit? You guys honestly think that either would've been content being looked at as Robin? You won cause you were on Shaqs team or you won cause you were on LBJs team?
    Not just that, but most of these posters don't get that LBJ plays in an LBJ system where everything is based on LBJ handling the ball and creating for himself or others. This would not work well with shaq and shaq would not stand for this (and rightfully so). Alongside Shaq, LBJ would unlikely be able to go into his LBJ-style of play, at least not while shaq was in the game.

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