Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 375 of 452 FirstFirst ... 275325365373374375376377385425 ... LastLast
Results 5,611 to 5,625 of 6768
  1. #5611
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    10,086
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Well think of it this way, has Bron ever been on a team that could absolutely still be a contending caliber team without his contributions? Kobe has been on several of those, wouldn't you expect a higher level of success in terms of raw rings?
    So who gets to choose by what criteria are we judging them? Does playing in the way weaker East for most of LBJs career come into play? Or is it just the things that affect Kobe?

    Like I've said, comparing these 2 players with each other is doodoo. They approached the game differently and they played in different conferences. Playing 1 on 1 though, I'm taking Kobe. 5 on 5 - it could go either way.

  2. #5612
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    I was just guessing stats. Perhaps mostly based on LeBron and Wilt being rated so high up. All good though. Thanks for clarifying. I rate Russell so high myself (number three all-time) mainly due to the defensive and leadership impact he had on a team that dominated wining 11/13 titles and he was always the consistent thing on that team even though his offense wasn't always. Duncan, same thing and also being the undisputed best at his position. Check out Big O's stats on a per 36 minute basis and adjusted for per 100 possessions. They are not all that impressive as people make them out to be. Guys like Barkley (bad example I know) like to make it out tht his triple double averaging season puts in on the level of guys like MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and LeBron statistically. Lol. Then check out how his post season number dipped from the regular season pretty much in all of his playoff runs. Much like Wilt who many say "Wilted" in the post-season for the first part of his career. He did great later on when he played more like Russell and brought his game down sacrificing his stats for the good of the team. He was a much better offensive version of Russell in the two titles he won and won NBA Finals MVP for. Especially in that 72 Lakers squad.



    Bird was the clear cut best to me from about 83-88 or so. Give or take a few years. Magic just happened to peak out later on in his career. Around 87-91. Guess we could have to compare them when they were at their peaks to be truly fair, though I would still give the edge to Bird. Magic just never got to hold the title of undisputed best in the NBA because his peak came along right at the time Jordan's did. Speak of having bad luck lol. Hakeem also would have never held that title as well, had Jordan not exited the league for those two years like he did. Can't really fault people for having to peak at the same time as the GOAT. Had KAJ, LeBron, or even Kobe been playing at the same time as Jordan, they would never have had the bragging rights as clear cut best as well. Shq might have been the only one who would have. Defense matters to me as well. I mean, I have Russell at number three and Duncan at number six as well lol.



    Ok cool. Thanks for clearing that up lol. I was like this guy must be high and there you have it. I am guilty myself of "buzzed" posting at times as well. All good, it happens. I would say that both Kobe and LeBron could not justifiably be any lower than top 11 on any all encompassing list. I just tfeel that to be in the top five, you have to be in the convo for best at your respective position and Magic is clearly the best PG of All-Time. D-Rob over Barkley is understandable. Wade is a hair under West at the SG position for all-time so naturally, I would have him in my top 20 as West is number 12 for me. Thomas was the first "non-big" to lead a team to a title and he did it twice in a row so I give him a lot of credit for that. He also did so without a dominant big.
    You have to compare to those of his era, that happens to a lot of players like Wilt too when you adjust. It doesn't take away how impressive it is they were that good and able to play that long/best for their team if they did and so on. Their numbers were still very impressive comparatively is the key and I try not to just ignore the context with stats and keep them relative. Each era has different rules and so on so straight comparisons are tough but within his era even the per 100's are pretty great. The context of your team and so on matters in that though too with why you have certain volume and so on.

    I think Bird at his peak was a little better than Magic at his, it isn't just about the timing being different. If someone has a peak at the same time as the GOAT I won't hold it against them but then there is clearly someone better at the same time too. You just have to factor in the context, sure I agree with that and is what I try and do in rankings constantly and have been pointing out to people all thread. The actual context. Not just what they feel about things in their opinion or could have but actually did happen and how I see it (and most and stats and accolades and so on to back up my perception).

    Yes, I was literally high and/or buzzed lol. I think I have a pretty set top 11 and it is kinda tough to talk me out of any of them at this point but I will always listen still and debate. There is plenty I don't know especially about older eras and I try and include all context when ranking so that it isn't just my favorite era's/players and so on at the top. I think that overall team was very good, he is probably around mid 20's to me I guess offhand so not saying he is bad I just have him a bit below some others like the guys listed/Wade and maybe a few more. Kobe to me is definitely in that group of 11 but towards the end for me personally the teens thing or whatever else I may have goofily said then was not being serious.

  3. #5613
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    10,086
    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I agree. Just noticed your join date by the way. That's impressive. You got me beat.
    I'm an old head here, post mainly in the Lakers forum.

    I'm not even really into this comparing Kobe and LBJ. The #s are whack cause they approached the game differently. All's I know that if they played 1 on 1 I'd go with Kobe. It's not the size of the dog in the fight but rather the size of the fight in the dog.

    And even if Kobe were to win, that doesn't necessariuly make him better. Magic is a consensus top 8 player of all time but there's at least 25 players I would take over him playing 1 on 1. Would that make them better then Magic? I guess the answer would have to be yes if that's what we're talking about, playing 1 on 1. But I'm sure this thread is 5 on 5 and there's just too many variables involved.

  4. #5614
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,155
    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    No one is trying to take away LBJs titles. I'm just showing the pettiness of alot of LBJ hockers. Kobe has 5 rings and LBJ has 3.... Period.

    Now if people want to diminish Kobe's rings because he played with Shaq (even though he was already a bonafied #1 starting the 00/01 season) that's fine. But then we should also take into account the 2 series changing shots that if weren't made, LBJ would've lost the series. Again, I'm not trying to take away his titles but 2 of them should have asterisks attached.
    I think you came in the middle. no one is taking away Kobe titles, Folks were diluting Lebron rings so in return diluted Kobe rings. It was in context.

  5. #5615
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,155
    Thats me too 1 vs 1 I role with Kobe but 5 vs 5 i will role with Lebron.

  6. #5616
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    46,781
    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So who gets to choose by what criteria are we judging them? Does playing in the way weaker East for most of LBJs career come into play? Or is it just the things that affect Kobe?

    Like I've said, comparing these 2 players with each other is doodoo. They approached the game differently and they played in different conferences. Playing 1 on 1 though, I'm taking Kobe. 5 on 5 - it could go either way.
    I think the fact that your team is in the tougher conference and can still contend without you only strengthens the argument. Bron playing in the Weak East also means he was on one of those badly managed Eastern Teams. You guys act like Bron going out West wouldn't have resulted in him also having a better team around him. Put him on the Spurs with Duncan, they never lose for example. Thats what a luxury Shaq was.

    The conferences dont change much, thats like ******** on Magic for coasting through the weak West.

  7. #5617
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    46,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    If you swapped out Kobe for LeBron on those Heat teams, do they at least do as well or possibly even better? I don't think if you got rid of Kobe on any of the teams he was on that they still win a title. They might do decently in the post-season, but a title is not ensured by any means. If you disagree, name me one of his teams that you think could realistically win a title without him.
    None win a title without him, they unloaded some talent to prioritize Kobe. But I do think if they had done the trade Phil pushed for(Jason Kidd+Marion for Kobe), they could have easily won b2b or something but they need Kobe to 3-peat. I think other guys could have done the job but the team needed Kobe to reach its full potential.

  8. #5618
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    46,781
    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    Yes. Wade won a title before Lebron. Shaq also was on his squad who won 3 titles with Kobe and lost in round 2 with Lebron with HCA.
    Wade in the 4 years before Bron showed up; 3 first round losses (one with Shaq), missed the playoffs/season the other year and was clearly on the decline in need of more support. I wish we got to see Bron with young Wade or even Miami version of Shaq. Instead he got the Shaq right before retirement

  9. #5619
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    46,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    If you swapped out Kobe for LeBron on those Heat teams, do they at least do as well or possibly even better? I don't think if you got rid of Kobe on any of the teams he was on that they still win a title. They might do decently in the post-season, but a title is not ensured by any means. If you disagree, name me one of his teams that you think could realistically win a title without him.
    Maybe year 1 they win because Kobe was closer to his prime and still a superior closer imo but those Heat revolutionized the league with the lessons they learned from their failures against the Mavs and the exposure to small ball with Bosh's injury. I think downsizing even more with Kobe makes their defender and rebounding significantly worse, they needed every bit of Brons 2-way versatility in those days after Wade knees began to break down.

  10. #5620
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,155
    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Question for you Idawg, for years you've had Kobe ahead of LBJ up until this season, what has LBJ done this season for him to move past Kobe in your opinion?
    I had Lebron ahead of kobe for a while. Its more to do with Lebron all around game however Kobe still remain my guy. I think Kobe and Lebron are not the same type of players. Kobe pride himself on scoring and he was fly doing it. 2nd Most entertaining player IMO next to MJ. Thing is Lebron can score too not in the same exciting fashion but at the same rate. He also serves as the teams quarter back and somehow found balance. It just seem like Lebron can at least make all 30 teams a contender not a championship team but a contender. I dont think Kobe could have done that. Lebron however cannot replace Kobe as a shooting guard, Kobe had more tricks and better moves. Lebron is more of a power player that takes a straight line to the basket that does a little of everything. Hes not quit MJ also not quit Magic but have the skills of both.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-27-2020 at 10:17 PM.

  11. #5621
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I said there is a reason to hold LBJ to a higher standard of winning than other stars because he's been able to play with multiple stars throughout most of his prime. It's fine if you dont agree with me. I dont see why that bothers you so much though
    Yes but the only star he played with that was in his own prime was Kyrie. If you look at Toronto Bosh and Miami Bosh, Bosh has lost a step. Both Wade and Love were passed there primes. Kobe had all of Shaqs Prime.

  12. #5622
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    25,753
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Different circumstances warrant different standards. If you have one person who has fewer opportunities and achieves as much as someone who had far more opportunities, it's not unreasonable to hold what the person with fewer opportunities accomplished in higher regard (even though technically they are the same).
    Actually, losing before the finals <<<<<<<<<<<<<< losing in the finals.

    So 3/7 is better than 3/3. 4/14 is better than 4/4n and so on.



    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

    Click here to register!

    Hope to see some new posters around here soon.

  13. #5623
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Russell
    4. Magic
    5. Bird
    6. Duncan
    7. Shaq
    8. Kobe
    9. LeBron
    10. Wilt
    11. Hakeem
    12. West
    13. Moses
    14. Curry
    15. Durant
    16. Dr. J
    17. Isiah
    18. Wade
    19. Dirk
    20. Big O


    This is my order for Peak...who I draft at there best.
    1. Bron
    2. Jordan
    3. Shaq
    4. Kareem
    5. Wilt
    6. Dream
    7. Drob
    8. Duncan
    9. Durant
    10. Curry
    11. Wade
    12. Bird
    13.Magic
    14.KG
    15.Tmac
    16. Kobe
    17.Dr J
    18.K Malone
    19.Barkley
    20.Big O

  14. #5624
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    15,548
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've addressed this sort of thing many times before and directly to you. I'll say it again, you don't necessarily have to win to become a superstar or a borderline superstar (which is what I would have considered Love during his time in Minny or at least well on his way to that). For me though, once a player is solidified as an elite superstar, which both Kobe and LBJ were/are, then titles matter for me, because a player of their caliber can put up incredible numbers if that's what they really want to do. At that stage, the real trick is finding ways to win. At the stage Kevin Love was at, he wasn't yet held to that standard. C'mon dude, we've been over this several times and you should know my position on this at this point.
    Iím sure you addressed it but itís so illogical that I forgot based on the fact it doesnít make sense. Itís like saying 10 is a larger number than 9 but 90 is larger than 100 because the closer you get to 101 bigger numbers can now be larger than smaller numbers. It literally makes no sense.

    Just think if I made 20 players with the genetics of Greek Gods and out then in the nba. Now that the bar has been raised and my twenty players are now now super stars, Kobe and Lebron would be outside the top 20 and cease to be superstars. They would just be borderline all stars. Now by your logic, Lebron would suddenly definitely be better than Kobe because now we can use the same Logic we applied to Kevin Love when he was not a superstar.

    You see it doesnít work, nothing changed with there game, just the league around them.

    Same with your rings argument. Jordan is the best because he was better than everyone else. If we sourrounded him with Kevin Loves Wolves teamates and they never one a ring but dominated other players and showed he was the best player ever then he still be the best ever rings or not.

    Even Larry Bird agrees with me after sweeping Jordan and the Bulls off the court. He called him god. He didnít need to see Jordan win a ring to know he was the best, all he had to do was share the court with him and not rely on a team accomplishment to crown him as such.

    Only you guys need to use team accomplishments to crown individual players and again, it makes zero sense at all. If your hypothesis for ranking players doesnít work universally then itís a bad hypothesis and canít be trusted. The more universal the rating system, the more worthy the system.

    10 > 9 and 100 > 90

  15. #5625
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    458
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    1. Oh, if you mean statistically the best he was that in 08-13 for sure minus the ugly 11. I just pointed to the timeframe you were more likely to agree with I thought but if you wanna base it on just RS stats then he was best 08-13. If you want to base it within all context I would say he was a better individual player later and he continued his dominance in the playoffs over that time individually even if not so much in RS as he aged (common given context). It's not about just the statistical outputs it is the overall play and in Lebrons case they were unbelievable. You can look back all through the forums about me saying people underrate Curry and so on but he was not on Lebron's level individually at the time. Part of the reason I have Lebron in the later years is because that is the time he had overcome the zoning defense aspect that rocked him with no talent in 07 and he should have beat in 11. He adjusted as a player with the help of Spo in a system and so on. I do not think Curry has shown that ability without KD there now and injuries to the Cavs in 15. We saw when both teams were relatively healthy in comparison the way one of them stepped up and the other continued to struggle in a very close series outside of just the way he was being played (drop off big from OKC series). After that we have no idea because of how the GS team was, you can't even really tell on that team who is best and we already knew the system so it just makes judging what happened a little less clear so 17 becomes iffy all around.
    I'm not saying there is not an argument for LeBron being the best in 08-11, or 14-16. Just that there were arguments for others as well. It was not clear cut, but he was in the convo as well. It's not all about his stats for sure. There was a hot debate between him and Kobe in 08-10 and between Durant and Curry from 14-16. This is fact and there is more than enough internet debates and sports shows to prove it. I wouldn't mind is someone though he was the best during these years, just saying it was their personal preference, but acknowledging that there were other contenders to that title. It was as clear cut for him as it was in 2012, and 2013. Those two years were definitely undebatable. It's unfair use the NBA Finals to judge Curry in 2016, because he was not at full strength and in 2015, LeBron had a ton of additional usage to cover up for the loss of Kyrie and Love. Hard to compare them based on their performance, because their roles were a lot different. Curry lit up the league in 2015, and 2016. Durant was pretty damn good too, he was just held back by Westy.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    2. I don't blame Blatt either but the Cavs team still accomplished something special under Lue so I won't question it, seems like he was a good fit for them. The injuries did suck and I don't blame Cle for losing though and get the context of that series, no it isn't on Blatt at all they were far outmatched.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    3. You can argue this for all players. The issue is so many in this thread ONLY want to push these what if's and so on's one way, every single title came with moments out of the stars control that a teammate did something good/crucial along the way. When it comes to Lebrons people keep trying to diminish them when to most they are widely considered some of the better individuals performances leading to titles of all time. From Boston/that 12 run in general with the injuries and underdogs to OKC, Spurs teams considered better than have been implied, to that 2016 ring and finals where he just completely dominated the court with Kyrie as a great Robin etc. to take down that Warriors team. The context behind what he has done is amazing and you "could" do a lot of this stuff for all players if you had the agenda but it doesn't mean the actual context gets taken away for other peoples what if's/hypotheticals.
    I give him credit for his three titles, because he has them. Nothing can be done to change that. I have to factor them into his all-time ranking. As I said before, not all titles are created equal. We must look at each and truly evaluate the level of dominance the player had, the circumstances surrounding, and the teams and help they had. I'm sure a bunch of other factors as well. In 2013, Pop just kinda threw that one in the garbage if you ask me. He was up by double figures in the fourth quarter and pulled out his starters including Kawhi with LeBron still in the game. I mean, I understand his methodology to rest his players, but come one man lol, you are on the brink of a title. If you are not resting them for this moment, then what are you resting them for. I can only think that the method to his madness was to totally demoralize LeBron by completely destroy his confidence by toying with him. IDK lol. Completely horrible mistake. LeBron capitalized. In 2016, as I said, it was imperative that GSW was the superior team after the first four games and then LeBron caught a huge break thanks the the NBA deciding to suspend Draymond and the series of unfortunate events that transpired soon after. I'm fine without adding hypotheticals, just as long as the Bronnies stop with all of theirs as well, like what if LeBron had Phil, and what if LeBron had Pippen and Rodman or Prime Shaq. The sword cuts both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    4. No, it is often talked about and written about in that manner. You hear it so much because of how impressive it was and that it was the only time a 73 win team had ever lost/his team was outmatched/he lead in pts/ast/reb/stl/blk and so on. You think he was lucky doesn't take away from how he played and that most people judge based on that. I am sure you think a bunch of calls should have gone against Lebron but I think most saw it as a clean block, you do you though like I said some people look for anything they can to downgrade a player. You just seem to be mad ranting about his homers at the end, it feels like there is a clear agenda at this point.
    It's just a response to all the recency bias that is going on right now. All the Kobe guys have seemed to accept his place in history and are no longer claiming his 2nd GOAT. I'm sure that a few years after LeBron's retirement, his place in history will be more accurately depicted. I said it could have been called a Goaltend. 50/50 call. Big surprise, it went his way. Just the way it is. Not really a sticking point for me honestly. Just brought it up because we were talking about the luck factor and all in in a close game like that in game seven, every call and play counts. I'm basically saying, that his ranking all-time is not set in stone now and is subject to recency bias. I've never been one to by into the hype or recency bias. He is not clear cut ahead of Kobe and that is not a forgone conclusion. That is all I'm saying. You have him as three, not one or two, so I can tell you are somewhat rational on the topic. I have him 8 at the highest, and I do consider myself somewhat rational as well, so likely the truth is somewhere in the middle. We just both have to come to a place where we would be open to amending our lists. Probly not gonna happen anytime soon I would imagine lol.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •