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  1. #5596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    LeBron was never close to the level of dominance Jordan had over the NBA. Statistically, he was very close, but that's literally it. Jordan dominated in winning. He was a much greater defender and one of the best of his era while playing the best offense at the other end. He did this for nearly his whole career less the Wizards years of course. LeBron has only done this one year in 2013. Dishing out to jump shooters and three point shooters to pad your assisting stats, does not mean you are necessarily better at getting others involved. LeBron will make you better if you are a journey man three and D guy, but if you are a Chris Bosh or Kevin Love, watch out.

    Since 2010, LeBron has been in very ideal situations. The true greats do what it takes to win. They do not say, since I am the best in the league (or at least believe myself to be so) therefore you all need to fall into line. Jordan learned the triangle system at the behest of Phil Jackson and learned how to get his teammates more involved. Just passing to outside shooters in not getting them involved btw; Letting them have real responsibilities and playmakimg ability is. I honestly believe that Phil would demand him to play in a real system and therefore his stats would go down. His stats are the only thing he has close to compare himself to Jordan. Because of this, I believe that LeBron would likely run Phil off. He have already seen what he has done to coaches when they try to make him conform to a real system.

    Injuries are decided by the basketball gods. League mandates are not. Would you put an asterisk on Kawhi's most recent ring?

    All titles are not created equal and should not be treated as such for many various reasons. We must look at how much help the player had in respect to their competition. A person's greatness is judged on the level of trials and tribulations they faced in the form of their adversaries and whether or not they came out on top. The greater the trial or opponent you overcame, the greater your legacy will be. Hercules would not be the Greek legend he is if he had not completed his 12 labors.
    Good post

  2. #5597
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Lebron
    4. Duncan
    5. Bird
    6. Wilt
    7. Shaq
    8. Magic
    9. Hakeem
    10. Russell
    11. West
    12. Moses
    13. Dr J
    14. Oscar
    15. Curry
    16. Durant
    17. Kobe
    18. Dirk
    19. KG
    20. Sir Charles
    I see by your list you are valuing stats above all else an winning very low. That said, how can you have Big O so high? His per 36 and adjusted stats for 100 possessions are not all that impressive when compared to other all-time greats; even Kobe for that matter who isn't known for his advanced stats achievements Especially when you factor in Big O's playoff declines. Dude never even led a team to a title and only has one MVP. So what if he averaged a triple double. I think Westbrook and Harden have exposed just how much stat sheet stuffers can be overrated. I mean Westy averaged a triple double three seasons in a row and has one MVP as well and no one his putting him in their top ten, let alone top fifteen.

    That said, Also, Russell based on the philosophy of titles not meaning very much and it being mostly about stats shouldn't even crack your top 30. Magic, Bird, and Duncan are also not statistical juggernauts either and you have all three top ten and Bird and Duncan in your top five; Which I agree with btw, as both are pretty much the best at their respective positions if you ask me. Kobe's resume at least compares with all three especially Magic and Duncan and he was a better defender that Bird and Magic for sure especially at his position. Not sure how you can have him 17 based on all that alone. His resume is top ten worthy at leasy. Top 11 at worst.

    I like to say that you have to at least be in the discussion for being the best at your position to be mentioned in the top five of all-time. Magic is easily the GOAT PG, and you have him at number 8. Kobe is pretty much the un-debated second best SG of All-Time, yet you have West above him. West was a beast and all and I have him as my third best SG all-time and very much a hair above D-Wade for that spot. West was not all that much more efficient than Kobe scoring wise and both were huge scorers for their time, with Kobe having a slight advantage on his peak. He has West beat in defense by a small margin as well and his longevity his clearly better. Not to mention his resume leaves West in the dust. West had no MVP's, and was 1/8 in the NBA Finals. Also, don't know how you cannot have Wade and Isiah above Sir Charles. I have Sir Charles easily in my top 25 no doubt. Don't get me wrong. Other than that, nice list and you and I are in agreement for about half of it I would say and nice to see the respect for Bird and Duncan as well.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 05-27-2020 at 07:02 PM.

  3. #5598
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Good post
    Thank you sir.

  4. #5599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not confusing anything with role. I'm stating where the players were at the time. Yes, everyone thought that Harden would eventually become a starter, but I don't think too many thought he would become an elite star the way he did. This assessment that you're making is in hindsight. At the time, it wasn't there. Kobe almost won 6th man of the year in 98 I think it was. It would be silly to say that the 98 team was more talented than the 2001 team because Kobe just had a different role. That ability had not yet developed.

    And yes, it does make logical sense that a guy can decline and then have a bit of a resurgence...another explanation is that making all-nba doesn't necessarily coincide with what you're claiming (which it doesn't). Some guys make all-NBA teams and they aren't truly elite stars (e.g., Draymond Green).

    I'm not dismissing anything: Stick to what I actually say. Were those articles not printed after a recent poor playoff performance? YES/NO? Did I not previously state that those articles come out quite often? What you did here is basically show support for what I previously posted (which didn't need to be done, because everyone knows that this occurs).

    I already said that it was cool to rank Kobe 17th, but please be consist and don't go after other posters as being biased when they rank LBJ 13th.

    And no, my posts are not hypocritical, your responses are in bad faith though.
    Honestly, in an all encompassing top list of all-time, I can't see anyone ranking LBJ or Kobe any lower than 11. Top 8 at the most. Maaaaabe seven, but I have to give it to Shaq for his dominance in his prime. We have never seen anything like that like ever.

  5. #5600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    I see by your list you are valuing stats above all else an winning very low. That said, how can you have Big O so high? His per 36 and adjusted stats for 100 possessions are not all that impressive when compared to other all-time greats; even Kobe for that matter who isn't known for his advanced stats achievements Especially when you factor in Big O's playoff declines. Dude never even led a team to a title and only has one MVP. So what if he averaged a triple double. I think Westbrook and Harden have exposed just how much stat sheet stuffers can be overrated. I mean Westy averaged a triple double three seasons in a row and has one MVP as well and no one his putting him in their top ten, let alone top fifteen.

    That said, Also, Russell based on the philosophy of titles not meaning very much and it being mostly about stats shouldn't even crack your top 30. Magic, Bird, and Duncan are also not statistical juggernauts either and you have all three top ten and Bird and Duncan in your top five; Which I agree with btw, as both are pretty much the best at their respective positions if you ask me. Kobe's resume at least compares with all three especially Magic and Duncan and he was a better defender that Bird and Magic for sure especially at his position. Not sure how you can have him 17 based on all that alone. His resume is top ten worthy at leasy. Top 11 at worst.

    I like to say that you have to at least be in the discussion for being the best at your position to be mentioned in the top five of all-time. Magic is easily the GOAT PG, and you have him at number 8. Kobe is pretty much the un-debated second best SG of All-Time, yet you have West above him. West was a beast and all and I have him as my third best SG all-time and very much a hair above D-Wade for that spot. West was not all that much more efficient than Kobe scoring wise and both were huge scorers for their time, with Kobe having a slight advantage on his peak. He has West beat in defense by a small margin as well and his longevity his clearly better. Not to mention his resume leaves West in the dust. West had no MVP's, and was 1/8 in the NBA Finals. Also, don't know how you cannot have Wade and Isiah above Sir Charles. I have Sir Charles easily in my top 25 no doubt. Don't get me wrong. Other than that, nice list and you and I are in agreement for about half of it I would say and nice to see the respect for Bird and Duncan as well.
    You are simply wrong about it being statistical, it is about my own overall criteria and I have covered tons of what I look at in the threads. Winning always comes with context and Duncan/Russell specifically have all time great defense anchor types along with very good offense even if not that highest level the others don't come near them on D impact often. Some players not winning might not hurt as much if they weren't on as great of teams as others in the era and so on. Oscar is a very tough one as it is often based on footage which there isn't tons of and then just how much more you can look up and learn over time but he doesn't seem to have nearly the same decision making flaws which is huge. He was consistently a top assist guy while being top like 3 or so scorer in the league too and pretty efficient too which is big. I am fine lowering him. It isn't just stats, that is just what you are focused on but if you have specific issues with his game and so on let me know or if you wanna dig in actually analytics I would be fine too but not basic bringing up Westy lol.

    Magic and Bird were the top guys of their era, I think Bird was better at his peak which has him just a little higher. Again you are focused on like stats in a weird general sense, no adjusting for comparing own time period and so on it seems. That matters more than just some raw look at data you seem to be trying to do. Defense matters in my ranking so that helps explain a lot of what you are saying and volume alone isn't quite as important.

    I will also let you know I do not have Kobe that low, while close that isn't my actual list there would be some other movement but I stand by what I just said above about Duncan/Russell/Bird/Magic and do have all of them around that range stated (Kobe is actually in the Hakeem/Russell range to me borderline top 10). I was not sober when I made that list lol. I do have West up there too but Kobe is actually over him to me. Sorry I was being sarcastic and the hypocrisy to follow in Valade/Big Moves convo was why I probably did that just to see the arguments flip like that, Kobe is right in the top 10 range to me. I would put Drob over Barkley for starters before the guys you mention and Thomas is an easy no to me tbh. Wade could be an argument for sure.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-27-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  6. #5601
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I don't really think the debate between Curry/Lebron/KD has been much of one since he has been in peak form (sure 2012) which was through 16 title at least. We can argue over semantics all day but he has widely dominated this era individually. I don't think many have been undisputed best for a chunk of years like MJ/Lebron/Kareem which is part of the point. I agree it isn't the end all not being so but if you never are you probably aren't gonna make a top 5 list, I disagree on Duncan btw. I think he was the best player as Shaq declined for a few years (03-05 at top). I do agree it is over for Lebron by now though for sure.
    Curry and Durant have been right there in the debate with him since 2014, for Durant, and 2015 for Curry. Even by all the advanced stat metrics all the LeBron stupor fan love so much, this is clearly evident. Last time LeBron was statistically dominant over his peers was 2013. The numbers and results back me up. Curry was owning him in the 2015 and 2016 regular season and playoffs up until he got hurt in 2016 and in 2015, he just played a different role than LeBron did in the NBA Finals, so how could he possibly have the same statistical outputs. LeBron was also garbage from an offensive efficiency standpoint in that series as well. Even LBJ butthuggers like Max Kellerman were crowing Steph over him in those years. Not saying I agreed that Steph too the throne form him, just that it was debatable between him, KD, and Bron Bron. Shaq had off years in 03, and 04, but was back to his ways in 2005. Kobe was also in the discussion as well in 2003, and 2004. Duncan was hardly ever mentioned as the clear cut best during that period. Even someT-Mac dudes might have some words as well. KAJ and MJ are the two top when it comes to a reign at the top undisputedly. Even Bird has that one over LeBron as well. 2012, and 2013 for LBJ and that is pretty much it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    See if just a change in luck would have meant completely different and so on then I don't hold that against players for not being as fortunate. I can't blame them for the coaching switch in Cle, they won that title. I think after a questionable start he adapted pretty clearly to Spo (whether he liked it I dunno). Anyways I don't put too much stock into my feelings about this stuff.
    I don't think that the coaching switch was all that necessary. I mean, how can Blatt be blamed for the loss in 2015? Is it his fault Love and Kyrie got injured? Either way, I still maintain, when both teams were healthy, GSW dominated. I would definitely chalk to luck more than a coaching change.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Of course all rings are not created equal, that's why the conversations around them are often meaningless in any counting measure. It is all about the context and how good the individual players was on the way to their titles which are team accomplishments.
    Can't argue with that. It's all about how well you capitalized on the opportunities you had. Perhaps there is some luck involved, but whatever. There is luck involved in anything. We can only go with the actual facts and tangible data we have. Yes, stats are a part of it, just must be laid into context as well. Could be easily argued that LBJ could be 1/8 in NBA Finals without a lot of luck, in which case, he is on par with Jerry West, but he is 3-6 in NBA Finals, and I have him at number 9 on my list cracking my top ten and West at number 12. Some people don't even have LBJ in their top 15 because of all the team hopping and luck involved in his titles. I on the other hand have him in my top ten.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You could argue that but after game 6 and how Boston ended that would be pretty silly given what was happening at the time (they tried bringing it up then too). I think just the level GS was playing at above the league essentially winning one then breaking that record is a pretty impressive start for a core. I don't think just because a team does great means you write it off but I do agree vet teams not doing great doesn't mean as much either. It is not all about RS wins, they won a title the year before and then did this and we know they added KD and won 2 more. Lebron played incredible that series beating such a great team, it is widely considered one of the more impressive individuals feats in the finals overall. It wasn't all him (especially given Kyrie going off with him) but at an individual level he did dominate in a major way which is what matters (lead series in pts/ast/reb/stl/blk on very good efficiency). I am not saying give him all the credit and have mentioned Kyrie going off and his amazing play plenty. The context always matters but in Lebrons case he usually plays great which is why people have him ranked so high on their lists. There are fanboys of every player though, it's how it works so I agree there are plenty for Lebron too.
    It is highly regarded as one of the most impressive playoff feats mostly by LeBron fanboys. There are a lot of them and that's why you hear it so much. I am not a fanboy, nor a hater. I have no dog in this race. He doesn't crack my top five and I think that 2016 title is very overrated as well and he was very lucky to get it. Some people might not like to hear that, but hey oh well, it is what it is. I would even add that a ref could have easily called goaltend on the "LeBlock" play because it could have been easily interpreted to violate the league's trapping rule 11-e. "Trap the ball against the face of the backboard after it has been (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)". 50/50 call to me, but hey, it's LeBron James and of course they will never make that call on him even on the road against the team who won 73 wins in the regular season in a game seven. It is what it is. I give him credit for the title. Just not what his fanboys give him and what he gives himself by calling himself the GOAT in his barbershop show even though he said right after that series, that he was chasing the ghost who wore number 23 in Chicago.

  7. #5602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    But those are affected by recent play. Miami was favored to win it going into the 2012 season and after the 2012 finals, going into the regular season they were favored to win it in 2013.
    Its effected by increased knowledge about a player, yes. By the time the Finals rolled around, everyone knew how banged up Wades knee was. Wade really only had about 2 prime years with Bron, if that. Maybe 2.5 if you discount injuries but thats part of the decline for slashers like him.

  8. #5603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There were signs that he would become a star, but my point was that he wasn't the elite player he became once he left OKC.
    Well theres been several iterations of Harden as hes developed and fine tuned his skill set along with an offensive system that has unlocked him. Hes not peak Harden but basically nobody is the peak versions of themselves so early in their careers. He was absolutely as good as he showed/proved to be in his first couple of Houston years tho, and thats already a guy who only needed longevity to raise up the historic ranks. Its not like he was traded and then out of nowhere started doing this, he was CRUSHING when he got to play without the main 2 guys (one of which was arguably inferior to him).

  9. #5604
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    That's the way it should be but it's the LBJ fanboys that always come up with....

    Kobe has 5 rings but.....

    If that's the case then fine but it should also be

    LBJ has 3 rings but.....
    Well think of it this way, has Bron ever been on a team that could absolutely still be a contending caliber team without his contributions? Kobe has been on several of those, wouldn't you expect a higher level of success in terms of raw rings?

  10. #5605
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You are simply wrong about it being statistical, it is about my own overall criteria and I have covered tons of what I look at in the threads. Winning always comes with context and Duncan/Russell specifically have all time great defense anchor types along with very good offense even if not that highest level the others don't come near them on D impact often. Some players not winning might not hurt as much if they weren't on as great of teams as others in the era and so on. Oscar is a very tough one as it is often based on footage which there isn't tons of and then just how much more you can look up and learn over time but he doesn't seem to have nearly the same decision making flaws which is huge. He was consistently a top assist guy while being top like 3 or so scorer in the league too and pretty efficient too which is big. I am fine lowering him. It isn't just stats, that is just what you are focused on but if you have specific issues with his game and so on let me know or if you wanna dig in actually analytics I would be fine too but not basic bringing up Westy lol.
    I was just guessing stats. Perhaps mostly based on LeBron and Wilt being rated so high up. All good though. Thanks for clarifying. I rate Russell so high myself (number three all-time) mainly due to the defensive and leadership impact he had on a team that dominated wining 11/13 titles and he was always the consistent thing on that team even though his offense wasn't always. Duncan, same thing and also being the undisputed best at his position. Check out Big O's stats on a per 36 minute basis and adjusted for per 100 possessions. They are not all that impressive as people make them out to be. Guys like Barkley (bad example I know) like to make it out tht his triple double averaging season puts in on the level of guys like MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and LeBron statistically. Lol. Then check out how his post season number dipped from the regular season pretty much in all of his playoff runs. Much like Wilt who many say "Wilted" in the post-season for the first part of his career. He did great later on when he played more like Russell and brought his game down sacrificing his stats for the good of the team. He was a much better offensive version of Russell in the two titles he won and won NBA Finals MVP for. Especially in that 72 Lakers squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Magic and Bird were the top guys of their era, I think Bird was better at his peak which has him just a little higher. Again you are focused on like stats in a weird general sense, no adjusting for comparing own time period and so on it seems. That matters more than just some raw look at data you seem to be trying to do. Defense matters in my ranking so that helps explain a lot of what you are saying and volume alone isn't quite as important.
    Bird was the clear cut best to me from about 83-88 or so. Give or take a few years. Magic just happened to peak out later on in his career. Around 87-91. Guess we could have to compare them when they were at their peaks to be truly fair, though I would still give the edge to Bird. Magic just never got to hold the title of undisputed best in the NBA because his peak came along right at the time Jordan's did. Speak of having bad luck lol. Hakeem also would have never held that title as well, had Jordan not exited the league for those two years like he did. Can't really fault people for having to peak at the same time as the GOAT. Had KAJ, LeBron, or even Kobe been playing at the same time as Jordan, they would never have had the bragging rights as clear cut best as well. Shq might have been the only one who would have. Defense matters to me as well. I mean, I have Russell at number three and Duncan at number six as well lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I will also let you know I do not have Kobe that low, while close that isn't my actual list there would be some other movement but I stand by what I just said above about Duncan/Russell/Bird/Magic and do have all of them around that range stated (Kobe is actually in the Hakeem/Russell range to me borderline top 10). I was not sober when I made that list lol. I do have West up there too but Kobe is actually over him to me. Sorry I was being sarcastic and the hypocrisy to follow in Valade/Big Moves convo was why I probably did that just to see the arguments flip like that, Kobe is right in the top 10 range to me. I would put Drob over Barkley for starters before the guys you mention and Thomas is an easy no to me tbh. Wade could be an argument for sure.
    Ok cool. Thanks for clearing that up lol. I was like this guy must be high and there you have it. I am guilty myself of "buzzed" posting at times as well. All good, it happens. I would say that both Kobe and LeBron could not justifiably be any lower than top 11 on any all encompassing list. I just tfeel that to be in the top five, you have to be in the convo for best at your respective position and Magic is clearly the best PG of All-Time. D-Rob over Barkley is understandable. Wade is a hair under West at the SG position for all-time so naturally, I would have him in my top 20 as West is number 12 for me. Thomas was the first "non-big" to lead a team to a title and he did it twice in a row so I give him a lot of credit for that. He also did so without a dominant big.

  11. #5606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Curry and Durant have been right there in the debate with him since 2014, for Durant, and 2015 for Curry. Even by all the advanced stat metrics all the LeBron stupor fan love so much, this is clearly evident. Last time LeBron was statistically dominant over his peers was 2013. The numbers and results back me up. Curry was owning him in the 2015 and 2016 regular season and playoffs up until he got hurt in 2016 and in 2015, he just played a different role than LeBron did in the NBA Finals, so how could he possibly have the same statistical outputs. LeBron was also garbage from an offensive efficiency standpoint in that series as well. Even LBJ butthuggers like Max Kellerman were crowing Steph over him in those years. Not saying I agreed that Steph too the throne form him, just that it was debatable between him, KD, and Bron Bron. Shaq had off years in 03, and 04, but was back to his ways in 2005. Kobe was also in the discussion as well in 2003, and 2004. Duncan was hardly ever mentioned as the clear cut best during that period. Even someT-Mac dudes might have some words as well. KAJ and MJ are the two top when it comes to a reign at the top undisputedly. Even Bird has that one over LeBron as well. 2012, and 2013 for LBJ and that is pretty much it.



    I don't think that the coaching switch was all that necessary. I mean, how can Blatt be blamed for the loss in 2015? Is it his fault Love and Kyrie got injured? Either way, I still maintain, when both teams were healthy, GSW dominated. I would definitely chalk to luck more than a coaching change.



    Can't argue with that. It's all about how well you capitalized on the opportunities you had. Perhaps there is some luck involved, but whatever. There is luck involved in anything. We can only go with the actual facts and tangible data we have. Yes, stats are a part of it, just must be laid into context as well. Could be easily argued that LBJ could be 1/8 in NBA Finals without a lot of luck, in which case, he is on par with Jerry West, but he is 3-6 in NBA Finals, and I have him at number 9 on my list cracking my top ten and West at number 12. Some people don't even have LBJ in their top 15 because of all the team hopping and luck involved in his titles. I on the other hand have him in my top ten.



    It is highly regarded as one of the most impressive playoff feats mostly by LeBron fanboys. There are a lot of them and that's why you hear it so much. I am not a fanboy, nor a hater. I have no dog in this race. He doesn't crack my top five and I think that 2016 title is very overrated as well and he was very lucky to get it. Some people might not like to hear that, but hey oh well, it is what it is. I would even add that a ref could have easily called goaltend on the "LeBlock" play because it could have been easily interpreted to violate the league's trapping rule 11-e. "Trap the ball against the face of the backboard after it has been (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)". 50/50 call to me, but hey, it's LeBron James and of course they will never make that call on him even on the road against the team who won 73 wins in the regular season in a game seven. It is what it is. I give him credit for the title. Just not what his fanboys give him and what he gives himself by calling himself the GOAT in his barbershop show even though he said right after that series, that he was chasing the ghost who wore number 23 in Chicago.
    1. Oh, if you mean statistically the best he was that in 08-13 for sure minus the ugly 11. I just pointed to the timeframe you were more likely to agree with I thought but if you wanna base it on just RS stats then he was best 08-13. If you want to base it within all context I would say he was a better individual player later and he continued his dominance in the playoffs over that time individually even if not so much in RS as he aged (common given context). It's not about just the statistical outputs it is the overall play and in Lebrons case they were unbelievable. You can look back all through the forums about me saying people underrate Curry and so on but he was not on Lebron's level individually at the time. Part of the reason I have Lebron in the later years is because that is the time he had overcome the zoning defense aspect that rocked him with no talent in 07 and he should have beat in 11. He adjusted as a player with the help of Spo in a system and so on. I do not think Curry has shown that ability without KD there now and injuries to the Cavs in 15. We saw when both teams were relatively healthy in comparison the way one of them stepped up and the other continued to struggle in a very close series outside of just the way he was being played (drop off big from OKC series). After that we have no idea because of how the GS team was, you can't even really tell on that team who is best and we already knew the system so it just makes judging what happened a little less clear so 17 becomes iffy all around.

    2. I don't blame Blatt either but the Cavs team still accomplished something special under Lue so I won't question it, seems like he was a good fit for them. The injuries did suck and I don't blame Cle for losing though and get the context of that series, no it isn't on Blatt at all they were far outmatched.

    3. You can argue this for all players. The issue is so many in this thread ONLY want to push these what if's and so on's one way, every single title came with moments out of the stars control that a teammate did something good/crucial along the way. When it comes to Lebrons people keep trying to diminish them when to most they are widely considered some of the better individuals performances leading to titles of all time. From Boston/that 12 run in general with the injuries and underdogs to OKC, Spurs teams considered better than have been implied, to that 2016 ring and finals where he just completely dominated the court with Kyrie as a great Robin etc. to take down that Warriors team. The context behind what he has done is amazing and you "could" do a lot of this stuff for all players if you had the agenda but it doesn't mean the actual context gets taken away for other peoples what if's/hypotheticals.

    4. No, it is often talked about and written about in that manner. You hear it so much because of how impressive it was and that it was the only time a 73 win team had ever lost/his team was outmatched/he lead in pts/ast/reb/stl/blk and so on. You think he was lucky doesn't take away from how he played and that most people judge based on that. I am sure you think a bunch of calls should have gone against Lebron but I think most saw it as a clean block, you do you though like I said some people look for anything they can to downgrade a player. You just seem to be mad ranting about his homers at the end, it feels like there is a clear agenda at this point.

  12. #5607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Well think of it this way, has Bron ever been on a team that could absolutely still be a contending caliber team without his contributions? Kobe has been on several of those, wouldn't you expect a higher level of success in terms of raw rings?
    If you swapped out Kobe for LeBron on those Heat teams, do they at least do as well or possibly even better? I don't think if you got rid of Kobe on any of the teams he was on that they still win a title. They might do decently in the post-season, but a title is not ensured by any means. If you disagree, name me one of his teams that you think could realistically win a title without him.

  13. #5608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Well think of it this way, has Bron ever been on a team that could absolutely still be a contending caliber team without his contributions? Kobe has been on several of those, wouldn't you expect a higher level of success in terms of raw rings?
    Yes. Wade won a title before Lebron. Shaq also was on his squad who won 3 titles with Kobe and lost in round 2 with Lebron with HCA.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  14. #5609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    He is only efficient due to his ability to draw cheap fouls. His FG% is atrocious. Even by SG standards.
    That's a skill by the way. I'm sure he appreciates the compliment. . He is INCREDIBLY efficient because:

    A) He is a great 3pt shooter.
    B) He is one of the most talented players of all-time at drawing contact.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

  15. #5610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    He was being sarcastic in response to another poster. Some of these guys are saying Kobe should only get a quarter credit for his rings. What that sort of thing shows is what I've been saying all along, which is that there is a strong bias here that is pro LBJ and anti Kobe. I definitely agree with you in terms of how credit should be partitioned for Kobe's titles
    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    That's the way it should be but it's the LBJ fanboys that always come up with....

    Kobe has 5 rings but.....

    If that's the case then fine but it should also be

    LBJ has 3 rings but.....
    I agree. Just noticed your join date by the way. That's impressive. You got me beat.


    Kristaps Porzingis
    Stronger than most 15 year old girls.

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