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  1. #5536
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    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Russell
    4. Magic
    5. Bird
    6. Duncan
    7. Shaq
    8. Kobe
    9. LeBron
    10. Wilt
    11. Hakeem
    12. West
    13. Moses
    14. Curry
    15. Durant
    16. Dr. J
    17. Isiah
    18. Wade
    19. Dirk
    20. Big O

  2. #5537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    They're trolling lol. Pretty sure they've both ranked Kobe in the top 10 or pretty close to it (I think around 8 or 9 is where they've ranked him)
    Oh, I see your confusion. What I was talking about before was their accolades, what they have accomplished. What Iím talking about now is my actual list of top players, I.e. talent.

    Completely separate things. Accolades, heís got an MVP, 5 rings, etc. but talking actual talent and ability I have him 21st (well in that 16-25 range). I just think there were 20 players who were actually better basketball players than him but due to unfortunate circumstances, werenít in a position to win as many rings.

    So itís completely separate lists.

  3. #5538
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Lebron individually was on top of the NBA in a similar way for a long time to many. Sure his teams didn't always win but that is not an individual aspect it is a team thing. Jordan wasn't winning his whole career but after getting Pippen etc. for example. Stats you mentioned and accolades too. Lebron was 2nd in DPOY voting he was still considered great even if not quite MJ. You don't need to have Lebron above or with MJ but the point was both of them dominated the ball/game plenty and still also had teammates involved. Creating the best shot possible is important and padding your stats is different than winning basketball. I have pointed this out to many with the Klove/Cousins and so on stuff people have pulled trying to prop up true stat padding. Bosh/Love were the 3rd best scorers on their teams, they needed to adapt given that and it lead to actually winning. One of them did better than the other too.
    Jordan was the best in the NBA pretty much undisputedly from about 1988 or so till about 1998 less the two years he missed to play baseball and go to gamblers anonymous. Though Magic was right there with him in the later 80's, let's just say for arguments sake: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998 as the undisputed best in the league. That's seven years. Pretty damn impressive, but not a major reason I have him as GOAT. In fact, Magic was never really the undisputed best for any large amount of time and I still have him top five. Even Duncan was never really the clear cut best to me and I still have him six. Anyways, I feel LeBron was the undisputed best for only two seasons. 2012, and 2013. I would say 2011 too, but I can't give him that kind of a nod after what happened in the NBA Finals that year. Late 2000's it was debatable with Kobe and some would argue Wade too as well. Then in 2014, Durant was right there in the convo. 2015 Steph was hottly in the debate and from then on really, it was always between Steph, LeBron, and Durant, with now Kawhi being in there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Sure he has and most all time greats were in very ideal situations too. There is no set criteria on how it happens and being lucky isn't better nor do I let my feelings on how I think things should happen and so on get in the way. I agree it would have been better if Lebron had Phil but he got Mike Brown instead. I just mentioned it above but I think people underrate Spo as he did create the pace and space system for Miami which helped them flourish. Lebron was the engine but the system created space for the offense, off ball movement and ball movement as well to ensure everyone remained involved (while Lebron/best player is focal point making majority of creation off attention he draws and so on, moving him to post more for this etc).
    I really do feel that if LeBron got Phil earlier on, it would have been different. By the time he was LeGM, it was too late. He has had issues with Spo, Blatt, and Luke Walton since. Though Tye was his guy. Dude knew how to stay out of his way and be the advisor/assistant coach LeBron wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I don't put asterisks on any rings lol. I do understand the context of how that ring was won though too. It isn't like a thing you count though, some individuals play better than others on their way to the team accomplishments. I factor all context so asterisks are unnecessary.
    You say context, I say asterisks. Potato Pothato.

    Point being is that all rings are not created equal and should be judged accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I agree we should. When you break it down Heat were underdogs going into OKC. In fact many thought they may lose to Boston with Bosh hurt and so on until Lebrons unbelievable all time level game 6. That spurs team has been covered a ton in here and a couple threads kinda were made too about it but basically they are largely considered great and Wade/Bosh were not top 5 or even 10 players anymore later on and so on. Then when you factor in the gap many saw between GS trying to repeat and having 73 wins with how poor Love played and his concussion stuff for Lebron/Kyrie to carry the Cavs was again another great feat to many. It is for the exact reasons you mention and big individual games Lebron has had or individual series he has had overall in big finals or ECF and so on that make him one of the greats. To most the Cavs title was huge and we already have seen so much dominance from stats/accolades/top of league to many he is right in that top group of 3. Most people I have seen at least have him top 5 and it is for everything combined including some of these great moments.
    I could argue the main reason the Heat were underdogs that year were due to LeBron's poor performance in the NBA Finals the previous year. Surely the handicappers took that into account as well. Bron did have an excellent game six for sure. A lot of people including myself thought they were going down. Regular season win totals to not mean a whole lot to me. Mavs won a franchise high 67 in 07 and went down in the first round. Dirk even had to give his MVP speech via satellite. How embarrassing lol. Even the Boston Celtics of 2010 didn't do all that great in the regular season and shocked everyone. Washington Bullets in the 70's were and 8 seed and won the title i believe. Point being, it's not all about the regular season records. GSW also too focused on the 73 win total I believe honestly. When the two teams were at full strength in the first four games of the series (Curry was not even at 100%), the Warriors dominated them. It wasn't until a series of unfortunate events took place that crippled that Warriors, that the Cavs were able to capitalize. Good for them though, but let's not act like LeBron did any Herculean tasks here and slayed the Nemian Lion with his bear hands single handedly. It's a team game right. That is what all the LeBron stupor fans like to say when they are defending the fact that he only has 3 rings in 17 seasons, yet when they win, they like to act like it was LeBron who did it all on his own and only give him the credit. Even David Griffen called this out when he was interviewed back in late last year. When they lose, it's the teams fault, and when they win it's all because of LeBron and how he made his teammates better. Can't have it both ways now. That's ridiculous. Not saying that you are one of these guys or anything, just that they are plentiful and plenty annoying at that.

  4. #5539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah, I do think love was a top 5 player before joining LBJ. It doesn't make any sense what you just said. if he had a season worth of being in the top 10, what exactly keeps him out of it?? He had 3 incredible seasons with the wolves before joining the cavs. It wasn't like it was a single season. Bosh also had really big years with the raptors. It's not like these were anomalies that they never came close to repeating
    But you just said nobody cares about winning just meaningless stats, then you just said Kevin love had 3 incredible years with the wolves and is a top 5 player. I mean bruh

    Kevin never even got to the playoffs but your saying heís the best of in the game. So why does Lebron need to win 5 rings to prove heís the better than Kobe when like love heís got a major stat advantage plus 3 rings as well. Your giving Love more benefit of the doubt than Lebron now...

  5. #5540
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    If the Spurs and Heat swapped Bosh for Duncan, which team gets better?
    Heat probably 4 peat instead of just the two. Itís crazy.

  6. #5541
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    https://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/28/to...yers-2015-list

    Here's a top 100 list of players heading into 2015. This gives an idea of how players from that MIA/SA series were thought of from that time:

    Lebron - #1
    Duncan - #5
    Parker - #15
    Bosh - #18
    Wade - #20
    Kawhi - #28
    Manu - #41
    Tiago Splitter - #70
    Danny Green - #96
    Boris Diaw - #100

    Not included on this list was Ray Allen because he had retired. That last year he had comparable numbers to Manu so I would have expected them to be similarly ranked.

    Lebron's main supporting cast of Bosh/Wade/Ray is pretty comparable to Duncan's supporting cast of Parker/Kawhi/Manu based on that list. And I think that's a fair reflection of the quality of players those guys were at that point in their careers. Duncan's secondary supporting cast of Splitter/Green/Diaw was definitely superior to Lebron's so that gave SA the advantage.

    Like the article states though, Lebron (and Durant) were in a league of their own. Lebron at #1 and Duncan at #5 are close in number but we all know that the difference between Lebron at that point of his career and Duncan at that point of his are worlds different. I know Lebron's Heat had a weaker back half of their rotation but looking at how those players stacked up to each other I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think Lebron as the arguable GOAT in his prime should have at least made that much more competitive than a gentleman's sweep. GOAT contenders deserve to be held to absurdly high standards.
    No doubt, and thatís why Kobe is not held to the same standard. But this really illustrates how the Heat has nothing after There three guys.

  7. #5542
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Oh, I see your confusion. What I was talking about before was their accolades, what they have accomplished. What Iím talking about now is my actual list of top players, I.e. talent.

    Completely separate things. Accolades, heís got an MVP, 5 rings, etc. but talking actual talent and ability I have him 21st (well in that 16-25 range). I just think there were 20 players who were actually better basketball players than him but due to unfortunate circumstances, werenít in a position to win as many rings.

    So itís completely separate lists.
    When it comes to raw natural talent and athleticism, LeBron is top four IMO just under Jordan, Wilt, and Shaq. Wilt and Shaq are pretty debatable if you ask me. Wilt was more of a natural athlete than Shaq, but Shaq was just too dominating with his combination of size, speed, and agility under the rim.

  8. #5543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    As I noted, the posters in here are is selecting for those kinds of posters because they bash anyone who disagrees with them.
    No itís because the same stats and lack of winning you use to put Love as a top five player also says that Lebron is the best and he wins way more.

  9. #5544
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I'm not trying to make anyone else's argument but my own.

    I think some people in here are drastically underrating SA's team. They were not all old and crippled. They were very talented. And very deep.

    I also think people are underrating the top part of MIA's roster. Wade/Bosh were still fantastic players.

    The back half of MIA's rotation was very much inferior to SA's. On paper I think top half of MIA's rotation was better on paper because LeBron James is that much better than everyone else on either team at that time.

    I think Lebron deserves blame for not being able to elevate his team in that series. If not win, at least make it more competitive than a 5 game demolition.

    Again, LeBron James is one of the top 3 basketball players in the entire history of the sport. He should be held to an absurdly high standard. I feel I am reasonable here - you'll never hear me criticize Lebron for his first CLE tenure losses to DET, BOS (1st time) or SA. I do think he deserves a little bit of flack for the loss to ORL and second loss to BOS, but not a ton. I will never criticize him for his losses to GS. Even acknowledging that he is the GOAT, I just don't think he had a fair chance against those teams. I won't criticize him for that.

    His loss to DAL with MIA I think everyone agrees was a huge negative on his resume. Obviously I don't had SA to that same degree but I think MIA should have been much more competitive vs SA in that second finals loss. I hold Lebron partially accountable for that. I think that's fair to do for someone that's a GOAT contender.
    Against Orl I think he put up the highest PER in nba history for a playoff, or maybe second highest. He was like 35/9/9 on insane efficiency.

  10. #5545
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    But yet LBJ doesn't get penalized by some and is given full credit for the championship even though Bosh and Allen saved him.
    Robert Horry says hello

  11. #5546
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    No doubt, and thatís why Kobe is not held to the same standard. But this really illustrates how the Heat has nothing after There three guys.
    I just feel like you are completely trolling lol. You can't mean any of the stuff you are actually saying.

  12. #5547
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    No doubt, and thatís why Kobe is not held to the same standard. But this really illustrates how the Heat has nothing after There three guys.
    Kobe and Shaq in the early 2000's could be though of as "top heavy" by those very same standards.

  13. #5548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Russell
    4. Magic
    5. Bird
    6. Duncan
    7. Shaq
    8. Kobe
    9. LeBron
    10. Wilt
    11. Hakeem
    12. West
    13. Moses
    14. Curry
    15. Durant
    16. Dr. J
    17. Isiah
    18. Wade
    19. Dirk
    20. Big O
    1. Jordan
    2. Kareem
    3. Lebron
    4. Duncan
    5. Bird
    6. Wilt
    7. Shaq
    8. Magic
    9. Hakeem
    10. Russell
    11. West
    12. Moses
    13. Dr J
    14. Oscar
    15. Curry
    16. Durant
    17. Kobe
    18. Dirk
    19. KG
    20. Sir Charles

  14. #5549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Jordan was the best in the NBA pretty much undisputedly from about 1988 or so till about 1998 less the two years he missed to play baseball and go to gamblers anonymous. Though Magic was right there with him in the later 80's, let's just say for arguments sake: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998 as the undisputed best in the league. That's seven years. Pretty damn impressive, but not a major reason I have him as GOAT. In fact, Magic was never really the undisputed best for any large amount of time and I still have him top five. Even Duncan was never really the clear cut best to me and I still have him six. Anyways, I feel LeBron was the undisputed best for only two seasons. 2012, and 2013. I would say 2011 too, but I can't give him that kind of a nod after what happened in the NBA Finals that year. Late 2000's it was debatable with Kobe and some would argue Wade too as well. Then in 2014, Durant was right there in the convo. 2015 Steph was hottly in the debate and from then on really, it was always between Steph, LeBron, and Durant, with now Kawhi being in there too.



    I really do feel that if LeBron got Phil earlier on, it would have been different. By the time he was LeGM, it was too late. He has had issues with Spo, Blatt, and Luke Walton since. Though Tye was his guy. Dude knew how to stay out of his way and be the advisor/assistant coach LeBron wanted.



    You say context, I say asterisks. Potato Pothato.

    Point being is that all rings are not created equal and should be judged accordingly.



    I could argue the main reason the Heat were underdogs that year were due to LeBron's poor performance in the NBA Finals the previous year. Surely the handicappers took that into account as well. Bron did have an excellent game six for sure. A lot of people including myself thought they were going down. Regular season win totals to not mean a whole lot to me. Mavs won a franchise high 67 in 07 and went down in the first round. Dirk even had to give his MVP speech via satellite. How embarrassing lol. Even the Boston Celtics of 2010 didn't do all that great in the regular season and shocked everyone. Washington Bullets in the 70's were and 8 seed and won the title i believe. Point being, it's not all about the regular season records. GSW also too focused on the 73 win total I believe honestly. When the two teams were at full strength in the first four games of the series (Curry was not even at 100%), the Warriors dominated them. It wasn't until a series of unfortunate events took place that crippled that Warriors, that the Cavs were able to capitalize. Good for them though, but let's not act like LeBron did any Herculean tasks here and slayed the Nemian Lion with his bear hands single handedly. It's a team game right. That is what all the LeBron stupor fans like to say when they are defending the fact that he only has 3 rings in 17 seasons, yet when they win, they like to act like it was LeBron who did it all on his own and only give him the credit. Even David Griffen called this out when he was interviewed back in late last year. When they lose, it's the teams fault, and when they win it's all because of LeBron and how he made his teammates better. Can't have it both ways now. That's ridiculous. Not saying that you are one of these guys or anything, just that they are plentiful and plenty annoying at that.
    I don't really think the debate between Curry/Lebron/KD has been much of one since he has been in peak form (sure 2012) which was through 16 title at least. We can argue over semantics all day but he has widely dominated this era individually. I don't think many have been undisputed best for a chunk of years like MJ/Lebron/Kareem which is part of the point. I agree it isn't the end all not being so but if you never are you probably aren't gonna make a top 5 list, I disagree on Duncan btw. I think he was the best player as Shaq declined for a few years (03-05 at top). I do agree it is over for Lebron by now though for sure.

    See if just a change in luck would have meant completely different and so on then I don't hold that against players for not being as fortunate. I can't blame them for the coaching switch in Cle, they won that title. I think after a questionable start he adapted pretty clearly to Spo (whether he liked it I dunno). Anyways I don't put too much stock into my feelings about this stuff.

    Of course all rings are not created equal, that's why the conversations around them are often meaningless in any counting measure. It is all about the context and how good the individual players was on the way to their titles which are team accomplishments.

    You could argue that but after game 6 and how Boston ended that would be pretty silly given what was happening at the time (they tried bringing it up then too). I think just the level GS was playing at above the league essentially winning one then breaking that record is a pretty impressive start for a core. I don't think just because a team does great means you write it off but I do agree vet teams not doing great doesn't mean as much either. It is not all about RS wins, they won a title the year before and then did this and we know they added KD and won 2 more. Lebron played incredible that series beating such a great team, it is widely considered one of the more impressive individuals feats in the finals overall. It wasn't all him (especially given Kyrie going off with him) but at an individual level he did dominate in a major way which is what matters (lead series in pts/ast/reb/stl/blk on very good efficiency). I am not saying give him all the credit and have mentioned Kyrie going off and his amazing play plenty. The context always matters but in Lebrons case he usually plays great which is why people have him ranked so high on their lists. There are fanboys of every player though, it's how it works so I agree there are plenty for Lebron too.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-27-2020 at 04:23 AM.

  15. #5550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I mean, he had what, one real series to prepare for every season, whereas kobe had to go through 3-4 real series. Not really sure why we're restricting to the finals either, since in the west, the biggest playoff series was the WCF finals and if we're going to compare their performances, we have to adjust for the massive rule differences between the early 2000s and when LBJ started playing in in the finals.
    Anytime I bring up anything other than finals wins. You say all that matters are championships. Now when I bring up finals, you say you donít know why we are restricting it to finals. Fine Bron has more playoff wins/pts/statistics than Kobe.

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