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  1. #5356
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So Kobe is getting penalized for playing with Shaq?

    So does LBJ get penalized for throwing up a brick with 7 seconds left in the game against SA when they were down 3 points and down in the series 2-3. If it wasn't for the Bosh rebound and kick out to Allen who made the 3 pointer to send the game into OT it would've been over. SA would've won 4-2 of it weren't for Allen.

    What about game 7 against GS when the score was tied with a little over a minute to play? Irving brought the ball up and called out a play for himself and hit a 3 pointer to go up 3 with under a minute to play. LBJ wasn't involved in the play at all. It would be different if LBJ was handling the ball and set up Irving but that didn't happen. Irving saved LBJ.
    yes lebron does get penalized... when did i say he doesnt? he also choked against the mavs playing passive trying to let wade/bosh do their things which cost them. Kobe doesnt get penalized for playing with shaq he just wasnt in the same universe as shaq.... when we talk top players and try to gauge who is better if we bring in a thing as team important as rings we need to understand why those rings happened.... rings are a really bad thing to use when trying to see which players are better period but if we use them we should at least use them properly. Lebron is better in almost every area from stats to eye tests to longevity to what he did with the lack of help he had to what kobe did without help next to him.... the one area kobe has the edge is rings and that is fine but he has 3 of those rings as a 2nd fiddle which is something lebron never ever was.

  2. #5357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Duncan is rated way too high here and it's entirely out of respect. ESPN had him rated about 7 slots too high (at 23), but still much more accurate than this SI ranking

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/.../nbarank-21-25

    That also wasn't the point that was being argued, but way to misrepresent it. The point that was being argued was that the spurs were fairly less talented than the heat.
    Also Kawhi is 8 on this list btw because the list is a year later. I am sure a 2015-2016 list is better at judging the season prior though since it pushed what you wanted about Duncan lol.

  3. #5358
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    This isn't true and I just quoted one example of the extremes you were going. So now we can use ESPN lists? Are you sure you wanna start taking this stance?

    The issue is tons of articles have been shared now you just wanna focus on the one that pushes your narrative and ignore all context/your previous arguments and so on. It keeps happening over and over with inconsistencies. Given all the context and some of what you say is ridiculous while pushing this narrative, people disagree those Spurs teams weren't talented.
    No one said that the spurs teams weren't talented (misrepresentation again). They weren't special in terms of their talent though and were less talented than the heat.

  4. #5359
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    This is actually helping show what people have been saying about how talented those Spurs were. The issue in the actual finals was the level from Wade especially dropped all around and the team defense as well. The spurs blew them out most games and if you remember his cramps game when he left that's when the blowout happened.

    Wade had 15 ppg on an 89 ORTG (Lebron/Bosh has 119 ORTG for the series) that series and the Spurs as a team had just over a 120 ORTG. The overall team defense and Wade playing so poorly can easily explain how two similarly though of team given the talent would end up so different.

    The main point that was being argued was SA wasn't talented though and as you get at they clearly were and anyone pushing it is BSing.
    I'm not trying to make anyone else's argument but my own.

    I think some people in here are drastically underrating SA's team. They were not all old and crippled. They were very talented. And very deep.

    I also think people are underrating the top part of MIA's roster. Wade/Bosh were still fantastic players.

    The back half of MIA's rotation was very much inferior to SA's. On paper I think top half of MIA's rotation was better on paper because LeBron James is that much better than everyone else on either team at that time.

    I think Lebron deserves blame for not being able to elevate his team in that series. If not win, at least make it more competitive than a 5 game demolition.

    Again, LeBron James is one of the top 3 basketball players in the entire history of the sport. He should be held to an absurdly high standard. I feel I am reasonable here - you'll never hear me criticize Lebron for his first CLE tenure losses to DET, BOS (1st time) or SA. I do think he deserves a little bit of flack for the loss to ORL and second loss to BOS, but not a ton. I will never criticize him for his losses to GS. Even acknowledging that he is the GOAT, I just don't think he had a fair chance against those teams. I won't criticize him for that.

    His loss to DAL with MIA I think everyone agrees was a huge negative on his resume. Obviously I don't had SA to that same degree but I think MIA should have been much more competitive vs SA in that second finals loss. I hold Lebron partially accountable for that. I think that's fair to do for someone that's a GOAT contender.


    NE Patriots Forum HOF (Class of 2011)

  5. #5360
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    This isn't true and I just quoted one example of the extremes you were going. So now we can use ESPN lists? Are you sure you wanna start taking this stance?

    The issue is tons of articles have been shared now you just wanna focus on the one that pushes your narrative and ignore all context/your previous arguments and so on. It keeps happening over and over with inconsistencies. Given all the context and some of what you say is ridiculous while pushing this narrative, people disagree those Spurs teams weren't talented.
    this is spot on lol

  6. #5361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, we've seen older players when they aren't on good teams they often struggle. I showed similar numbers despite bosh playing a more limited role
    You showed more points. Again if role increases points likely do too but that doesn't mean it is all positive impact. Dropping efficiency and so on matter more than simple ppg in a situation very clearly likely to lead to more no matter how talented the player if they shoot more on losing team now.

  7. #5362
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Also Kawhi is 8 on this list btw because the list is a year later. I am sure a 2015-2016 list is better at judging the season prior though since it pushed what you wanted about Duncan lol.
    I misread the year: here is one after the 2014 season

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...rankings-21-25

    Still too high, but again this is simply out of respect that they have him there

  8. #5363
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I'm not trying to make anyone else's argument but my own.

    I think some people in here are drastically underrating SA's team. They were not all old and crippled. They were very talented. And very deep.

    I also think people are underrating the top part of MIA's roster. Wade/Bosh were still fantastic players.

    The back half of MIA's rotation was very much inferior to SA's. On paper I think top half of MIA's rotation was better on paper because LeBron James is that much better than everyone else on either team at that time.

    I think Lebron deserves blame for not being able to elevate his team in that series. If not win, at least make it more competitive than a 5 game demolition.

    Again, LeBron James is one of the top 3 basketball players in the entire history of the sport. He should be held to an absurdly high standard. I feel I am reasonable here - you'll never hear me criticize Lebron for his first CLE tenure losses to DET, BOS (1st time) or SA. I do think he deserves a little bit of flack for the loss to ORL and second loss to BOS, but not a ton. I will never criticize him for his losses to GS. Even acknowledging that he is the GOAT, I just don't think he had a fair chance against those teams. I won't criticize him for that.

    His loss to DAL with MIA I think everyone agrees was a huge negative on his resume. Obviously I don't had SA to that same degree but I think MIA should have been much more competitive vs SA in that second finals loss. I hold Lebron partially accountable for that. I think that's fair to do for someone that's a GOAT contender.
    i dont disagree with any of this... he def choked against the mavs because he was hella passive but the same thing happened both against the mavs and the spurs per cuban and pop... both cuban and pop came out and stated they had 1 specific game plan at beating lebron and that was to force him out as a shooter and make other people beat him.... they clogged all his lanes and lebron couldnt be as aggressive as he normally would be even if normally he isnt aggressive he still is.... against dallas there is no excuse because he should have still taken over... against the spurs with their defense/interior defense/duncan and his interior defense and the help defense that team had from top to bottom makes what they did more of a credit to the spurs over a slight to lebron... they played to their strengths while having a much deeper team and completely took away the one thing lebron was insane at and were the only team capable of doing it to this degree..... the mavs did not have those same players and that is why lebron gets the **** he does for that series.

  9. #5364
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    Big Moves holds terrible opinions about Duncan, Bosh, and the Spurs. Why would we expect any different on his opinions about LeBron?

  10. #5365
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    You showed more points. Again if role increases points likely do too but that doesn't mean it is all positive impact. Dropping efficiency and so on matter more than simple ppg in a situation very clearly likely to lead to more no matter how talented the player if they shoot more on losing team now.
    This is why efficiency arguments are so silly. "A drop in efficiency" for bosh between 14 and 15 amounted to about 1.5 additional misses per game. That's negligible given added scoring.

  11. #5366
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugepatsfan View Post
    I'm not trying to make anyone else's argument but my own.

    I think some people in here are drastically underrating SA's team. They were not all old and crippled. They were very talented. And very deep.

    I also think people are underrating the top part of MIA's roster. Wade/Bosh were still fantastic players.

    The back half of MIA's rotation was very much inferior to SA's. On paper I think top half of MIA's rotation was better on paper because LeBron James is that much better than everyone else on either team at that time.

    I think Lebron deserves blame for not being able to elevate his team in that series. If not win, at least make it more competitive than a 5 game demolition.

    Again, LeBron James is one of the top 3 basketball players in the entire history of the sport. He should be held to an absurdly high standard. I feel I am reasonable here - you'll never hear me criticize Lebron for his first CLE tenure losses to DET, BOS (1st time) or SA. I do think he deserves a little bit of flack for the loss to ORL and second loss to BOS, but not a ton. I will never criticize him for his losses to GS. Even acknowledging that he is the GOAT, I just don't think he had a fair chance against those teams. I won't criticize him for that.

    His loss to DAL with MIA I think everyone agrees was a huge negative on his resume. Obviously I don't had SA to that same degree but I think MIA should have been much more competitive vs SA in that second finals loss. I hold Lebron partially accountable for that. I think that's fair to do for someone that's a GOAT contender.
    I think Wade/Bosh were pretty similar to say Parker/Kawhi. The issue is Manu/Green and the other depth you mentioned separate a ton AND Wade had a very poor series individually himself. If you factor in the drop from Wade, the Manu/Green and then better depth even past that probably and defensive level difference that created it means a lot.

    I don't think any star player is going to make this series a win for Miami so we disagree here, I am not sure what star in history makes up for the gap in play given all the context.

    He should be held to a high standard I just don't think it should mean his team always overcomes all context to win. Ya some do blame him for Orlando too despite putting up 38/8/8 that series. It is what it is, he is not the perfect player but most of the times he gets blamed it is often for the team performance while admittedly the context can explain why moreso than any failing by Lebron himself. I think in context it is very clear why SA won and it isn't because Lebron didn't play like an all time great himself it was the rest of the equation.

    Dallas is obvious and I definitely agree. I agree Miami should have more competitive and there is some blame to put on Lebron as the top guy but not to an real extent like he didn't step up or that this team should have won. I am just pointing out most of the reason for the difference are team defense, top player like wade dropping off huge, the cramps leading to one of the blowouts while he was out. He is partially accountable so I think we might actually see it close but the Heat losing isn't changing with anyone else either.

  12. #5367
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So Kobe is getting penalized for playing with Shaq?

    So does LBJ get penalized for throwing up a brick with 7 seconds left in the game against SA when they were down 3 points and down in the series 2-3. If it wasn't for the Bosh rebound and kick out to Allen who made the 3 pointer to send the game into OT it would've been over. SA would've won 4-2 of it weren't for Allen.

    What about game 7 against GS when the score was tied with a little over a minute to play? Irving brought the ball up and called out a play for himself and hit a 3 pointer to go up 3 with under a minute to play. LBJ wasn't involved in the play at all. It would be different if LBJ was handling the ball and set up Irving but that didn't happen. Irving saved LBJ.
    Kobe does get penalized for playing with Shaq. It don’t matter if his numbers where better then Shaq at times because it was Shaq’s team.

    Kobe can only be seen as a Kareem Abdul-Jabbar level of player.

  13. #5368
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Big Moves holds terrible opinions about Duncan, Bosh, and the Spurs. Why would we expect any different on his opinions about LeBron?
    Maybe you can tell us more about how this super stacked, talented roster that was historically great and improved talent wise the following year managed to come back the following year to lose a 7-game series against the clippers. Of course that's what historically great teams do. They get eliminated by teams that can't make it past the 2nd round.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-26-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  14. #5369
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    yes lebron does get penalized... when did i say he doesnt? he also choked against the mavs playing passive trying to let wade/bosh do their things which cost them. Kobe doesnt get penalized for playing with shaq he just wasnt in the same universe as shaq.... when we talk top players and try to gauge who is better if we bring in a thing as team important as rings we need to understand why those rings happened.... rings are a really bad thing to use when trying to see which players are better period but if we use them we should at least use them properly. Lebron is better in almost every area from stats to eye tests to longevity to what he did with the lack of help he had to what kobe did without help next to him.... the one area kobe has the edge is rings and that is fine but he has 3 of those rings as a 2nd fiddle which is something lebron never ever was.
    Do the Heat beat the Spurs if Bosh wouldn't of grabbed the rebound of LBJs brick and kicked it out to Allen where he hit a 3 pointer with only 5 secs remaining sending the game into OT?

  15. #5370
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I think Wade/Bosh were pretty similar to say Parker/Kawhi. The issue is Manu/Green and the other depth you mentioned separate a ton AND Wade had a very poor series individually himself. If you factor in the drop from Wade, the Manu/Green and then better depth even past that probably and defensive level difference that created it means a lot.

    I don't think any star player is going to make this series a win for Miami so we disagree here, I am not sure what star in history makes up for the gap in play given all the context.

    He should be held to a high standard I just don't think it should mean his team always overcomes all context to win. Ya some do blame him for Orlando too despite putting up 38/8/8 that series. It is what it is, he is not the perfect player but most of the times he gets blamed it is often for the team performance while admittedly the context can explain why moreso than any failing by Lebron himself. I think in context it is very clear why SA won and it isn't because Lebron didn't play like an all time great himself it was the rest of the equation.

    Dallas is obvious and I definitely agree. I agree Miami should have more competitive and there is some blame to put on Lebron as the top guy but not to an real extent like he didn't step up or that this team should have won. I am just pointing out most of the reason for the difference are team defense, top player like wade dropping off huge, the cramps leading to one of the blowouts while he was out. He is partially accountable so I think we might actually see it close but the Heat losing isn't changing with anyone else either.
    Umm...what about LBJ??? You do know he gets included in the assessment of talent, right?

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