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  1. #4456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    But the same applies to Kobe. The article title is "Charles Barkley leaves Kobe and LeBron out of his list of top 5 NBA players of all-time". There's no upfront reason for the disproportionate voting. Those people clicking on the article should think "yeah, I agree that neither Kobe or LBJ are in the top 5". I think kobe is in the top 5 but I still clicked on the article. There's 42% of respondents who did think LBJ was in the top 5 (which is still a really large number of people who disagree with the article who were still reading it all the way through the poll).
    Yes there is, Kobe died 3 months ago. The publicís opinion of him will never be higher than it is right now.

  2. #4457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not even disagreeing that most people don't have LBJ in the top 5. I think it actually might be close. The whole point of bringing this is up to show that it is a highly debatable topic and is not a foregone conclusion like many on here have been portraying it
    Itís not a foregone conclusion, but at the very least his positioning is debatably top 5. What does that mean? 6th, or 7th.

    So having him 10th is still lower than most everyone. Having him outside the top 10 is just so far in a minority itís ridiculous.

    So where do you have him ranked?

  3. #4458
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Just because the poll and so on have been called out as biased doesn't mean it's equal? Again do you have the data on the audiences hit and so on where advertised more? Me either. So all we know for sure here is that the way the article is laid out is likely to bring a biased audience. We can't be overly sure of much more than that unless you mean to say in your opinion, not an actual statistical/scientific type approach? YOU think it helps your case that it would be equal and that it's not proved your point despite all the issues. That's what you are trying to say, as the expert, right? You should understand that me saying we don't know a ton of things is not the same as me making the opposite argument or whatever you keep pushing, I am just pointing out common sense about the data as a whole.




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    Saying it's possible that something else is going on, even though I have no reason to suspect that something else, is not a legitimate point to raise, as it amounts to saying nothing. Yes, of course it is possible that the sample is biased in favor of one player over the other...my point in this regard is that we have absolutely no reason to suspect that this would be the case and so making that point is meaningless.

    Also, try to follow along with what the original point of the post was. It was to show that there are a whole lot of people out there who clearly do not think LBJ is in the top 5 let alone top 2. I never, at any point said that this was definitive in any way.

  4. #4459
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Yes there is, Kobe died 3 months ago. The publicís opinion of him will never be higher than it is right now.
    Again, that explains why kobe's rating would be slightly inflated, not why LBJ's would be impacted, especially if most people have him in the top 2. What we should expect to see in that case is Kobe being overrated in the poll and LBJ being rated appropriately (so maybe both would be in the top 5). There's no reason why having sympathy for Kobe should knock LBJ out of the top 5, unless it's close enough that something like Kobe's passing would get them to swap out the two players, but most of the poster on here do not think it's that close so I don't think too many would go that route of argumentation.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-21-2020 at 09:46 PM.

  5. #4460
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Itís not a foregone conclusion, but at the very least his positioning is debatably top 5. What does that mean? 6th, or 7th.

    So having him 10th is still lower than most everyone. Having him outside the top 10 is just so far in a minority itís ridiculous.

    So where do you have him ranked?
    I have him at 8th or 9th and I think a case can be made that he is top 5. but hey, I never said otherwise. I have Kobe at #5 and LBJ at 8 or 9. If LBJ could get another title as a superstar he would move ahead in my book and be right there with Kobe. My point was never that LBJ doesn't belong in the discussion for top 5. It was that a lot of people on here overstate how the rest of the world views LBJ's all-time ranking and the poll is right in line with that.

  6. #4461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Again, that explains why kobe's rating would be slightly inflated, not why LBJ's would be impacted, especially if most people have him in the top 2. What we should expect to see in that case is both Kobe and LBJ being overrated in the poll. There's no reason why having sympathy for Kobe should knock LBJ out of the top 5, unless it's close enough that something like that would get them to swap out, but most of you do not think it's that close so I don't think too many would go that route of argumentation.
    But I already explained why LeBronís numbers would be expected to be low. If Kobe hadnít have just died, I think his numbers would have been lower than they were. If the article was ďCharles calls Kobe and LeBron top 5 all-timeĒ Iíd bet both their numbers would have been higher.

  7. #4462
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But I already explained why LeBronís numbers would be expected to be low. If Kobe hadnít have just died, I think his numbers would have been lower than they were. If the article was ďCharles calls Kobe and LeBron top 5 all-timeĒ Iíd bet both their numbers would have been higher.
    Even if that's the case though, there's still a large proportion of people who clearly don't have him in the top 5. The point of this was to show that it's not as black and white as many on here like to make it seem

  8. #4463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I have him at 8th or 9th and I think a case can be made that he is top 5. but hey, I never said otherwise. I have Kobe at #5 and LBJ at 8 or 9. If LBJ could get another title as a superstar he would move ahead in my book and be right there with Kobe. My point was never that LBJ doesn't belong in the discussion for top 5. It was that a lot of people on here overstate how the rest of the world views LBJ's all-time ranking and the poll is right in line with that.
    This is what I suspected. Iíve noticed that people who rate LeBron lower than everyone else always point to things that show some donít believe LeBron is rated as high as his defenders think even though the things they point to never have him rated as low as they do.

    Your pointing to an article where Barkley has him 7th. And that many donít have him top 5. But you have him 8th or 9th. How many of those 58% who said he wasnít top 5 would have him rated as low as you? How many things can you find supporting your position?

    So to your overall point: perhaps people saying heís for sure top 5 are ranking him too high, but youíre still ranking him too low according to pretty much everyone.

  9. #4464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Saying it's possible that something else is going on, even though I have no reason to suspect that something else, is not a legitimate point to raise, as it amounts to saying nothing. Yes, of course it is possible that the sample is biased in favor of one player over the other...my point in this regard is that we have absolutely no reason to suspect that this would be the case and so making that point is meaningless.

    Also, try to follow along with what the original point of the post was. It was to show that there are a whole lot of people out there who clearly do not think LBJ is in the top 5 let alone top 2. I never, at any point said that this was definitive in any way.
    Wtf, it is clearly done in biased manner this isn't like a this could possibly be. We know it is, so long as you understand even the most simple aspects of trying to take an unbiased poll.

    The issue is that poll is meaningless given what you want to show given the bias. You can't use bad data just because it still fits your narrative after being explained the methods are bad. Well you can but no one will believe you are an expert.


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  10. #4465
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    This is what I suspected. Iíve noticed that people who rate LeBron lower than everyone else always point to things that show some donít believe LeBron is rated as high as his defenders think even though the things they point to never have him rated as low as they do.

    Your pointing to an article where Barkley has him 7th. And that many donít have him top 5. But you have him 8th or 9th. How many of those 58% who said he wasnít top 5 would have him rated as low as you? How many things can you find supporting your position?

    So to your overall point: perhaps people saying heís for sure top 5 are ranking him too high, but youíre still ranking him too low according to pretty much everyone.
    That's an empirical question as to whether I rate him too low. Even if I do, it's likely going to be pretty close between my ranking and those 58%. I'm happy to accept that it's definitely a debatable point, Im not the one who bristles at disagreement with my position, as others on here do.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-21-2020 at 09:57 PM.

  11. #4466
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Wtf, it is clearly done in biased manner this isn't like a this could possibly be. We know it is, so long as you understand even the most simple aspects of trying to take an unbiased poll.

    The issue is that poll is meaningless given what you want to show given the bias. You can't use bad data just because it still fits your narrative after being explained the methods are bad. Well you can but no one will believe you are an expert.


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    The bias only matters if it favors one response over the other and there is no reason to think that it would. That's what you're not getting. The article should draw laberon haters just as it should Lebron supporters. You're basically saying, "well it's possible that this happened and so the data is meaningless". That's false. The data is not meaningless simply because it is biased.

  12. #4467
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But I already explained why LeBronís numbers would be expected to be low. If Kobe hadnít have just died, I think his numbers would have been lower than they were. If the article was ďCharles calls Kobe and LeBron top 5 all-timeĒ Iíd bet both their numbers would have been higher.
    Kobe numbers would spike right now and to be honest Kobe played for the Lakers. Its not That Lebron is not Known But Kobe was more popular having Played for the Lakers. The reason how many pick their top 10 is attached to emotions.

  13. #4468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The bias only matters if it favors one response over the other and there is no reason to think that it would. That's what you're not getting. The article should draw laberon haters just as it should Lebron supporters. You're basically saying, "well it's possible that this happened and so the data is meaningless". That's false. The data is not meaningless simply because it is biased.
    It did they are pretty close.

  14. #4469
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    It did they are pretty close.
    It can be argued that Kobe had an advantage compared to LBJ because he recently passed, sure. But that doesn't explain why people would rate LBJ outside of the top 5. It's not as if Kobe and LBJ can't both be in the top 5. If the massive majority of people think he's top 2, well then I don't think Kobe getting a bump would knock LBJ out of the top 5.

  15. #4470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The bias only matters if it favors one response over the other and there is no reason to think that it would. That's what you're not getting. The article should draw laberon haters just as it should Lebron supporters. You're basically saying, "well it's possible that this happened and so the data is meaningless". That's false. The data is not meaningless simply because it is biased.
    We can't quantify the effects of the bias, we can see it is clearly there in many ways but outside that it's just clearly done poorly if trying to be any real representation as opposed to a specific poll in an article or a specific audience that's likely to be extreme one way or another on this topic (for lebron or against for Kobe or against, maybe two of the above in opposite form etc etc). Location of advertisement can lead to more views as covered in certain areas which can add more. I can go on and on with issues this wasn't even close to a meaningful poll due to the issues if you want to speak about what most think (and have most be based not on the extremes this was likely to draw)

    I am saying given all that we don't know about the flawed data and the bias here we have no idea how representative this is of the general populations feelings.

    You don't need a poll to prove to me not everyone has him top 5 though, my comment was most I have seen do. The poll is useless due to its flaws either way though if trying to prove anything meaningful about what people not biased one way or another towards either think


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