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  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's night and day though between those two franchises and only what the lakers did qualifies as a rebuild. By definition, rebuilds do not go smoothly. You basically suck when you're rebuilding. If you do not suck and your roster is not all that different from one year to the next, you are not rebuilding (because the team has not been overhauled). Rebuilding means the team is no longer competing for a title and is now trying to get back to that. the Celtics rebuilt after pierce, kg, and Allen left. The entire roster was overhauled. What the lakers did was a rebuild. The spurs just kept adding pieces little by little and replacing guys as they got older and retired. Credit to the spurs organization for running the best franchise in the past 30-plus years or so that they've managed to avoid rebuilding.
    So your saying the change was to sudden.
    While Duncan was able to implement mold and win with rookies Kobe could not and not with Buddy Butler and Odom. It took Pau another established skilled star big man in the Paint along with piece of the old band in fisher and Phil. That rebuilt my friend have 3 pieces from the 3 peat playing in the same town with the same system.

    If spurs were to look at that team vs the 3 peat team the major difference is no Shaq. the back court was the same, the system was the same, one of the stars was the same.

    So Kobe was familiar with Odom, Phil the coach and his system, Fisher his back court buddy, Bynum.
    Last edited by ldawg; 10-20-2019 at 10:43 PM.

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    So your saying the change was to sudden.
    While Duncan was able to implement mold and win with rookies Kobe could not and not with Buddy Butler and Odom. It took Pau another established skilled star big man in the Paint along with piece of the old band in fisher and Phil. That rebuilt my friend have 3 pieces from the 3 peat playing in the same town with the same system.

    If spurs were to look at that team vs the 3 peat team the major difference is no Shaq. the back court was the same, the system was the same, one of the stars was the same.

    So Kobe was familiar with Odom, Phil the coach and his system, Fisher his back court buddy, Bynum.
    Dude, this is not a debatable point. Tim Duncan NEVER experienced a roster overhaul from one year to the next. Never. Not once. The spurs have not rebuilt in over 30 years. I do not understand what part of that is difficult for you to understand. ONE MORE TIME: TIM DUNCAN NEVER WENT THROUGH A ROSTER OVERHAUL. Is that clear enough for you? What part of this do you not understand? Seriously, what part of this is unclear to you?? Do not respond to any more posts on this matter until you either understand this point OR you explain what part of this is unclear to you.

    In contrast, in 2005 the only guys who were left from 2004 who played a significant role on the team from the previous season was Kobe. Duncan always had multiple key players and veterans from a previous season on his team. This has been the case with the spurs since the 80s. In 2005, kobe was not familiar with about 85% of the team (i.e., about 85% of the team was new). The rebuild STARTED in 2005. No one on the team had played with one another. Butler and Odom were very young. This was a full scale rebuild. In 2008 when Pau arrived, yes kobe was familiar with several players...2.5 YEARS INTO THE REBUILD. They had been rebuilding for 2.5 years. FOR THE LAST TIME...THIS WAS NEVER THE CASE FOR DUNCAN. DUNCAN NEVER, EVER HAD THAT MANY NEW TEAMMATES THAT WERE ALL YOUNG PLAYERS. This is a huge part of what makes the spurs such a great franchise. They are known for avoiding rebuilds. Arguing this point with you is on par with someone coming on here trying to argue that Shaq was a great free throw shooter. It's probably one of the more outlandish positions I've seen anyone take...ever.

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Dude, this is not a debatable point. Tim Duncan NEVER experienced a roster overhaul from one year to the next. Never. Not once. The spurs have not rebuilt in over 30 years. I do not understand what part of that is difficult for you to understand. ONE MORE TIME: TIM DUNCAN NEVER WENT THROUGH A ROSTER OVERHAUL. Is that clear enough for you? What part of this do you not understand? Seriously, what part of this is unclear to you?? Do not respond to any more posts on this matter until you either understand this point OR you explain what part of this is unclear to you.

    In contrast, in 2005 the only guys who were left from 2004 who played a significant role on the team from the previous season was Kobe. Duncan always had multiple key players and veterans from a previous season on his team. This has been the case with the spurs since the 80s. In 2005, kobe was not familiar with about 85% of the team (i.e., about 85% of the team was new). The rebuild STARTED in 2005. No one on the team had played with one another. Butler and Odom were very young. This was a full scale rebuild. In 2008 when Pau arrived, yes kobe was familiar with several players...2.5 YEARS INTO THE REBUILD. They had been rebuilding for 2.5 years. FOR THE LAST TIME...THIS WAS NEVER THE CASE FOR DUNCAN. DUNCAN NEVER, EVER HAD THAT MANY NEW TEAMMATES THAT WERE ALL YOUNG PLAYERS. This is a huge part of what makes the spurs such a great franchise. They are known for avoiding rebuilds. Arguing this point with you is on par with someone coming on here trying to argue that Shaq was a great free throw shooter. It's probably one of the more outlandish positions I've seen anyone take...ever.
    Aight dude. it was a total rebuild from 2004-2005. And by the time they were ready to compete again they brought in a few familiar faces. Totally different from the ground up nothing was the same when they won again. Odom grant on their 3rd team Butler 2nd were rookies.
    Last edited by ldawg; 10-21-2019 at 12:05 AM.

  4. #409
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    Grant sucked however.

  5. #410
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    Seem like when Kobe ran off Shaq and Phill life did not get to easy. And winning became a memory.

  6. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Seem like when Kobe ran off Shaq and Phill life did not get to easy. And winning became a memory.
    Kobe didn't really run off either of them. Kobe and shaq had issues and shaq didn't want to play with kobe and kobe didn't want to play with shaq so the team had to choose. When shaq saw the direction the lakers were going in he publicly demanded a trade (the other alternative was to let kobe walk in free agency). Phil retired. With shaq leaving, it was going to be necessary to start over.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Kobe didn't really run off either of them. Kobe and shaq had issues and shaq didn't want to play with kobe and kobe didn't want to play with shaq so the team had to choose. When shaq saw the direction the lakers were going in he publicly demanded a trade (the other alternative was to let kobe walk in free agency). Phil retired. With shaq leaving, it was going to be necessary to start over.
    Phil knew the run was over and knew Kobe was difficult. He called him uncoachable in his book. Kobe got humbled and wanted his coach back after it became clear he was not going to win.

  8. #413
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    Let's use the Dragon Balls and wish that Kobe and Lebron swapped situations. Lebron gets drafted to the Lakers forming a starting 5 of

    Shaq
    Campbell
    Lebron
    Jones
    Van Exel

    How do you think that team would do and how do you think Lebron would. Now same for Kobe.
    Ilgauskas
    Bozer
    Miles
    Davis
    Kobe

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  9. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    cause players, and ex-players, are so awesome at evaluation hahaha
    Idk what you are talking about. MJ the Goat drafted Kwame Brown and look at the HOF career he had.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No one is arguing that Pau wasn't important, but he wasn't a superstar. Pau never put up superstar numbers on his own nor with kobe. He's always been a very good all-star caliber player. The numbers bear that out.
    I dont know but I think we are forgetting that there was a debate during those back to back for Pau Gasol to be the Finals MVP. Idk I might be crazy.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    These aren't current players who grew up watching these players. These are players who played against both in their primes. There is a long list of those guys that is posted on this thread (e.g., wade, bosh, Grant Hill, Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Tony Allen, Iggy, Dirk). The lis is quite long, actually.

    And as I've said many times, stats do not lie or tell the truth. Stats are numbers and nothing more. The interpretations we draw from those numbers are what is in debate and what is highly questionable. In basketball, statistics are greatly misused and are worst than meaningless, because they lead to faulty conclusions (meaning they are worst than not having any statistics).
    So can we use Kobe has 5 titles vs Lebron has 3 or no?

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Only if those stats provide meaningful information, which I've been arguing this entire time that most of them do not, particularly advanced analytics. At the end of the day we're left with their peers picking kobe, the advanced analytics pointing to LBJ and kobe having 2 more titles despite having a tougher road to the title. That should lead people to wonder whether the advanced analytics are measuring meaningful information. That is, the advanced analytics do not accord with what their peers think nor do they accord with who has won more titles...something doesn't quite add up and it's pretty clear that its the advanced analytics.
    Awe I see so using one stat (titles(team accomplishment(shaq, horry, Fisher, gasol, Odom, Bynum, arrest, phil))) and people's opinions. That's when it matters I'll noted it for later

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  13. #418
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    I dont know what qualifies as raw stats but just in case let me know if something like this works ok.
    https://www.landofbasketball.com/pla...bron_james.htm

    There is 50 categories there with Lebron career not being over yet. So far if this qualifies as "raw stats" Lebron got Kobe 35 to 15.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  14. #419
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    Oh and I might say that some of Kobe's defensive acolytes are based on popular votes and not who the best defensive player was. Players like Iguadola and Tony Allen among others getting snubbed in favor of Kobe.
    Last edited by jericho; 10-21-2019 at 09:15 AM.

    Best poster on PSD Douglas

  15. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Thatís BS he cleared and spread the floor plenty of times for Shaq. He slowed pace to let get to his spots plenty of times. Maybe he should have more at times but saying he didnít is total bunk
    Well obviously he didn't enjoy it because he ran Shaq out of town. Though I agree with your overall point on LeBron forcing everyone to play LeBron ball.

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