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  1. #4171
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    You two love birds are perfect for each other
    Hardy har har


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #4172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Supporting casts are more than just two or three dudes sir. It's a whole dynamic and chemistry as well. Coaching etc. To take two or three of the top guys on the team and then ask someone to rank the entire dynamic of the team concept that goes into a supporting cast, not to mention there are actually 15 dudes on a roster, not three or four, is just irresponsible.
    Oh I was just naming the top talent of the supporting casts to save time, Iíd absolutely LOVE to list more because it only helps my argument.

    That 06 Heat team was filled with vets and quality role players like Gary Payton, Jason Williams, Udonis Haslem and Antoine Walker.

    The 07 Spurs also featured Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, and Brent Barry.

    The 08 Celtics had Rajon Rondo, Sam Cassell, Tony Allen, and James Posey.


    Compare those groups to LeBronís cast like Drew Gooden, Delonte West, Ricky Davis and Daniel Gibson.


    Not only are those championship teams supporting casts vastly more talented even down to the 10th and 11th player, they are also far more experienced and feature way more championship level experience than the teams LeBron had.


    As for coaching, Do we even really want to get into the difference between Pop and Phil Jackson and Mike Brown?

    Thank you for helping my argument.
    Last edited by valade16; 05-16-2020 at 01:07 AM.

  3. #4173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Supporting casts are more than just two or three dudes sir. It's a whole dynamic and chemistry as well. Coaching etc. To take two or three of the top guys on the team and then ask someone to rank the entire dynamic of the team concept that goes into a supporting cast, not to mention there are actually 15 dudes on a roster, not three or four, is just irresponsible.
    Stop making things complicated and realistic. We like to simplify things here otherwise we don't get it.

  4. #4174
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    Let's ignore guys like Ben Wallace, Shaquille O'Neal, Antwan Jamison or even guys like Szczerbiak or Anthony Parker who had intense championship exposure in Europe at a time when the best teams could look the NBA teams in the eye, someone like Varejao who had international exposure as well as Euroleague championship being part of one of the best teams ever (Barcelona 2003), replacing Pau Gasol of all people, or veterans like Eric Snow and Joe Smith.

    The roster looks poor now because they didn't win. They didn't win because other teams were better. **** happens. This is the NBA, there are good teams, there are great teams. Great players don't always play for great teams. Great players sometimes play on great teams that don't have that many other great players on them. There's no formula here, stop looking for one.

    Orlando after Dwight Howard had some decent core around him (Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu, Pietrus, Courtney Lee and young guns in Redick and Gortat who didn't have much of a role).
    If any of those guys were in Cleveland during the 2005-2010 period you'd be still saying that Lebron had no help. You'd only consider 'help' someone like Howard. So it's hypocritical to talk about the 11th and 12th players when you don't do that to teams that beat the Cavs such as Tony Battie, Brian Cook and Tyronne Lue. Even with Dwight Howard, Lebron couldn't have won.

    The reason why the Cavs lost to the Magic was because they were the inferior team. The Magic were an actual basketball team, very well drilled, with defined roles. Lebron was always selfish, despite his best tool being his passing, so his teams suffered from that. No one argues he wasn't great, but he wasn't as great as others. It's very simple really.

    It's also laughable seeing the competition Lebron faced in the Playoffs with the exception of the 2008 season. Nobody said it was imperative that he had to win a championship within his first few years, the pressure was added by Wade's 2006 MVP campaign and the loss in the World Championship from Greece. Everyone was skeptical about everyone back then, so the rings had to "prove" that these guys weren't bums. Well, their course of action didn't really help them and Kobe coming to save their *** in the 2008 Olympics just added insult to injury. Lebron could have won a ring eventually had he worked properly for it, it was bound to happen. But the way he did it just ruins his legacy and he never was anywhere near in talent to other greats so that wasn't the way in anyway. This guy wasn't no Penny, Tmac or Grant Hill, he just survived and lasted more.
    Last edited by NYKalltheway; 05-16-2020 at 04:43 AM.

  5. #4175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Supporting casts are more than just two or three dudes sir. It's a whole dynamic and chemistry as well. Coaching etc. To take two or three of the top guys on the team and then ask someone to rank the entire dynamic of the team concept that goes into a supporting cast, not to mention there are actually 15 dudes on a roster, not three or four, is just irresponsible.
    That was the whole point we were trying to get across. Your on the right side of the fence. No argument here.

  6. #4176
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Let's ignore guys like Ben Wallace, Shaquille O'Neal, Antwan Jamison or even guys like Szczerbiak or Anthony Parker who had intense championship exposure in Europe at a time when the best teams could look the NBA teams in the eye, someone like Varejao who had international exposure as well as Euroleague championship being part of one of the best teams ever (Barcelona 2003), replacing Pau Gasol of all people, or veterans like Eric Snow and Joe Smith.

    The roster looks poor now because they didn't win. They didn't win because other teams were better. **** happens. This is the NBA, there are good teams, there are great teams. Great players don't always play for great teams. Great players sometimes play on great teams that don't have that many other great players on them. There's no formula here, stop looking for one.

    Orlando after Dwight Howard had some decent core around him (Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, Turkoglu, Pietrus, Courtney Lee and young guns in Redick and Gortat who didn't have much of a role).
    If any of those guys were in Cleveland during the 2005-2010 period you'd be still saying that Lebron had no help. You'd only consider 'help' someone like Howard. So it's hypocritical to talk about the 11th and 12th players when you don't do that to teams that beat the Cavs such as Tony Battie, Brian Cook and Tyronne Lue. Even with Dwight Howard, Lebron couldn't have won.

    The reason why the Cavs lost to the Magic was because they were the inferior team. The Magic were an actual basketball team, very well drilled, with defined roles. Lebron was always selfish, despite his best tool being his passing, so his teams suffered from that. No one argues he wasn't great, but he wasn't as great as others. It's very simple really.

    It's also laughable seeing the competition Lebron faced in the Playoffs with the exception of the 2008 season. Nobody said it was imperative that he had to win a championship within his first few years, the pressure was added by Wade's 2006 MVP campaign and the loss in the World Championship from Greece. Everyone was skeptical about everyone back then, so the rings had to "prove" that these guys weren't bums. Well, their course of action didn't really help them and Kobe coming to save their *** in the 2008 Olympics just added insult to injury. Lebron could have won a ring eventually had he worked properly for it, it was bound to happen. But the way he did it just ruins his legacy and he never was anywhere near in talent to other greats so that wasn't the way in anyway. This guy wasn't no Penny, Tmac or Grant Hill, he just survived and lasted more.
    Thats your story and your sticking to it. Did you still miss the point That Lebron needed a good coach or a prime vet teammate like the others had? Sticking players together dont work. I think the Howard, Nash, Artest, Pau, Kobe, Mike D proved that. Especially when they are over the hill. A guy rated in top 5 with the majority got a ruined Legacy? lol. The only thing keeping Lebron from being the goat is the number of rings.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-16-2020 at 08:48 AM.

  7. #4177
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    Kobe vs Lebron: Who is the better player?

    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Thats your story and your sticking to it. Did you still miss the point That Lebron needed a good coach or a prime vet teammate like the others had? Sticking players together dont work. I think the Howard, Nash, Artest, Pau, Kobe, Mike D proved that. Especially when they are over the hill. A guy rated in top 5 with the majority got a ruined Legacy? lol. The only thing keeping Lebron from being the goat is the number of rings.
    That and heís not the best basketball player


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #4178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    That and heís not the best basketball player


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    How can he be the best when so many guys from the 60s, 70s 80s 90s would run circles around him knocking him to maybe to the 20th best

  9. #4179
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    Kobe vs Lebron: Who is the better player?

    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    How can he be the best when so many guys from the 60s, 70s 80s 90s would run circles around him knocking him to maybe to the 20th best
    I didnít say that. I also didnít say rings where the only thing stopping him from being the Goat. This isnít as black and white as you seem to think . you can both be wrong!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  10. #4180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I didnít say that. I also didnít say rings where the only thing stopping him from being the Goat. This isnít as black and white as you seem to think . you can both be wrong!


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    I know its not i said from earlier every great player can make a claim. How can you grade a pg with a center? how can you grade by era? You cant use wins since its so much at play. I have no issue with anyone list unless it display bias, hate, etc.

    everyone have a different take on what it takes to be the best but you at least got to be in the ball park base on the information you do have.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-16-2020 at 09:47 AM.

  11. #4181
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    I know its not i said from earlier every great player can make a claim. How can you grade a pg with a center? how can you grade by era? You cant use wins since its so much at play. I have no issue with anyone list unless it display bias, hate, etc.

    everyone have a different take on what it takes to be the best but you at least got to be in the ball park base on the information you do have.
    You two are not


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  12. #4182
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    Below is a ex player take on playing next to MJ in this era. While some think video game numbers and thinking guys will have the same level of success and even greater. I explain a number of guys can avg 40 but the coach and teammates would not alow that. What MJ was praise for Kobe got the ball hog label. It only have but so much minutes and only so much shots 1 player will take.

    ďHe only had really one job and that was to just score. And he did that at an amazing, amazing rate.

    ďBut I donít feel like his way of winning then would translate to what it is now. Guys wouldnít want to play with him.Ē
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-16-2020 at 10:14 AM.

  13. #4183
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    You two are not


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    LOL. yall stuck in time i cant control that. some people get stuck in their ways. Its an old saying you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

  14. #4184
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    Below is one current players take on the shape of the earth

    ďCan you openly admit that you know the Earth is constitutionally round?Ē


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  15. #4185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Thats your story and your sticking to it. Did you still miss the point That Lebron needed a good coach or a prime vet teammate like the others had? Sticking players together dont work. I think the Howard, Nash, Artest, Pau, Kobe, Mike D proved that. Especially when they are over the hill. A guy rated in top 5 with the majority got a ruined Legacy? lol. The only thing keeping Lebron from being the goat is the number of rings.
    He had good players with him. Not elite, but good. You don't always need elite players around you. A team is what makes a player look great, not the coach itself and not the player himself.

    His coaches weren't crap, but obviously not HoF great.
    I mean Mike Brown was under Popovich and had a crucial part in those Spurs teams, including winning a championship, he also had the same role in Indiana with Reggie Miller's last run, another very solid group of players and then ended up coaching Lebron and he was one of the reasons why the Cavs made it to the 2007 Finals and why they were competititve till the end.

    Some veteran late 90s- early 2000s players such as Donyell Marshall were also good enough rotation players that Lebron played with, but you've never heard of him because he never won a ring. If you ask Stockton and Karl Malone they'll probably going to tell you that he was arguably a top 5 teammate they had at Utah. Not a spectacular player by any means, but he was a solid player, just like most others. If he were at Los Angeles or San Antonio, you'd know the name and appreciate him more because he'd have more exposure and rings.

    But rings isn't what makes players great. Most players are on the same level, with the exception of stars. You cannot say that Lebron played with scrubs and that he did all those Cavs runs by himself, that Ilgauskas, Varejao, Mo Williams and others were crap because it was all Lebron and then cry that Lebron didn't have any help. There porbably isn't a team that makes it to the NBA Finals if it doesn't deserve it. You can argue a couple of games in a series, like for example the Iverson 76ers vs the Pacers in 1999 who were swept, but they could have just as won at least three of those four games (reminder that the scores were: 94-90, 85-82, 97-86, 89-86). It's a marginal difference usually.

    The main obstacle in talking up Lebron's case is that he failed to reach the Finals more than once with the Cavs, having usually one of the best teams in the East, especially while missing out when being the 1st seed twice in a row. That pressure made him leave and made him consider the unthinkable.
    He abandoned his team, a two year running #1 seed and joined the player everyone was saying was going to be his main MVP award competitor over the next few years, with Kobe having a last go and guys like Rose, Durant and Howard competing also, but the consensus was that the triad was Lebron, Kobe and Wade.
    So the whole argument based on rings when it comes to Lebron is weak, yet that's become the only narrative now apart from the stat padding. He bailed and did what people do when they're 33 when he was at his peak!!

    It's one thing to say that the Celtics of the 80s were stacked but they had to beat a stacked Lakers 80s team, and it's another to have a staked Miami team collapse against an aging Mavs team, barely beat an aging Spurs team due to a tactical error by Pop and the best 3pt shot in NBA Finals history by Ray Allen, right after a missed Lebron attempt from three and then ironically losing to that same aging team, a year later... After that, moving back to Cleveland in the weakest East ever he had 4 easy runs to the Finals and only won once and that was because he cried to the media that Draymond Green said a bad word to him lol. And people think this guy could take 90s trash talking and beating

    If you think you had to wait for the 2014 Lakers to see this, then you obviously weren't paying attention or didn't know what was going on in 2004. And Phil Jackson was the coach, someone highly revered in the NBA community for being able to win in these situation. Shaq, Kobe, Payton, Karl Malone (40 or not)... Lost 4-1 to the Pistons.

    Team building is not about having one coach and a couple of stars. It's an entire process. This new documentary portraying Jerry Krause amongst others should be an eye opener to those who have no real idea of how teams are managed, but apart from hating on him most people won't even realize what the whole situation was about. Lebron had been incompatible with a team building process and he never requested a trade. Had he requested a trade in 2009 or 2010, his frustration could have been explained and excused. He was part of trade offers by other teams, but he never asked for one. Leaving a team that you publicly had shown affection for and never openly wanted to leave makes you a culprit if you leave one good morning. He wouldn't have gone to all these teams to make them do pitches for the fun of it since he had already made his mind for at least weeks that he'd join Wade with Bosh in Miami.

    You can argue that the Cavs could have done better, but they did well enough as Lebron's team was the top seed 2 years running before he left. The problem with the Cavs was that they allowed Lebron to be bigger than the organization. Something that Michael Jordan himself didn't do. He didn't decide who the coach was going to be, he didn't decide who his teammates were going to be, he didn't decide what plays they'd call, he didn't get to be anything more than a basketball player. He only got really pissed when they dissed his coach. But his answer was to retire, not to join the Knicks along with Gary Payton...

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