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  1. #3796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, but he was a superstar for 2 of those 3. It's different when you're a superstar like that.
    Kobe was not an MVP/all time great level player yet. He was an in the discussion for MVP kinda (like Pippen) but not actual MVP type peak Kobe yet. Defenses keyed in on Shaq and Kobe had an incredible run in 01 playoffs but as an individual he was not there yet

  2. #3797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I don't have to hide any context. I've contextualized this quite considerably throughout this thread. I won't do so here because it's already been done and doing so will get be back into arguing about Kobe vs. LBJ and the all important context, which spoiler alert in case you haven't read the first 100 pages, I argue favors Kobe. But no need to get into that now, I'll do so after the season is officially over and we can assess how LBJ did with yet another top 5 player in his prime (the reason I'm waiting to discuss this is because it will add to the context of the argument one way or the other).
    I know, I have read plenty and you did this last time I responded calling out faulty logic as well.

    This argument doesn't need anymore seasons as Lebron is already a top 5 level player (now if you wanna say we need context between the top greats then sure) while Kobe is more fringe top 10 all time.

  3. #3798
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Titles matter for superstars because they are the ones carrying the team individually, agreed.

    This isn't true at all when looking at actual individuals. The individual awards separate individuals, team awards separate teams. This is all basic common sense. MVP is a better measure of all time greats than total rings would be for that reason.

    You can disagree all you want but others can have opinions on what makes a star and plenty have Pippen in that range.
    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/pag...-nbarank-21-25 (espn top 25)
    https://clutchpoints.com/updating-ra...t-players-nba/ (clutch, 31)
    These are just a couple but just because you have an opinion doesn't mean others can't disagree. So if others consider him a star, again it kills your narrative completely now.

    This is also why Lebron is better. He is clearly above Kobe for many reasons outside of this team aspect, especially at the time Kobe was winning those first 3 titles and not at his peak yet. I agree with you that individually we can see Bird is better than Pippen so this team stuff would just be a BS argument. Hopefully you now apply that logic to this conversation and look for legitimate ways to tell individuals apart instead of this.
    Sure, people can disagree, apply that same logic here (and to the long list of their peers who pick Kobe over LBJ, which is posted throughout this thread). The individual awards are mostly meaningless, because the point of the game is to win a title (and the MVP award is completely meaningless because it's a popularity contest and usually goes to a guy who has a feel good type of season, not necessarily the guy who impacted the game the most that season). It's also silly to bring up Kobe's first 3 titles in the context that you just did, because it completely ignores that for the last 2 of those he was at the superstar level. For the first title, sure his role was actually pretty similar to what Pippen's role was and if that's the role that Kobe played for the other 2 than absolutely you would have a point. However, for the last 2 of the 3 Kobe was in the discussion for being the best player in the league and there were whispers at the time of him being better than Shaq (he wasn't, but it was close). That was never the case for someone like Pippen.

  4. #3799
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Kobe was not an MVP/all time great level player yet. He was an in the discussion for MVP kinda (like Pippen) but not actual MVP type peak Kobe yet. Defenses keyed in on Shaq and Kobe had an incredible run in 01 playoffs but as an individual he was not there yet
    In 2001 and on Kobe eclipsed anything Pippen ever did and at that point yes, Kobe was better than the massive majority of superstars who have ever played the game. Thats where Kobe was at the time.

  5. #3800
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I know, I have read plenty and you did this last time I responded calling out faulty logic as well.

    This argument doesn't need anymore seasons as Lebron is already a top 5 level player (now if you wanna say we need context between the top greats then sure) while Kobe is more fringe top 10 all time.
    Nope, if we flip that order than you are correct. And you didn't call out any faulty logic at all. You brought up the Russell thing which has been answered pretty resoundingly so try again.

  6. #3801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, but he was a superstar for 2 of those 3. It's different when you're a superstar like that and are in the discussion for being the best player in the league versus when you're not in that discussion.
    Not sure how that makes sense. He was the clear #2. Sure he was a star and sure he was good but come on lol lebron never been the 2 ever. Kobeís ego got in the way of the team in the pistons series. Sure Lebron has his faults but heís just so damn good and always has been. Lebrons been to 9 finals, sure he lost to the mavs who he had no business losing too, but that spurs team was elite and bosh and wade took major steps down. The warriors team was a different class. They would have murdered Kobeís championship teams. The fact that lebron made 8 straight finals 4 with the Cavs is amazing.
    Spurs Sim league
    2 time Champion 653-331

  7. #3802
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    Lebron is probably top 3. Kobe I could see maybe as a top 8 at best. Probably 10th.
    Spurs Sim league
    2 time Champion 653-331

  8. #3803
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxplayerxx23 View Post
    Not sure how that makes sense. He was the clear #2. Sure he was a star and sure he was good but come on lol lebron never been the 2 ever. Kobeís ego got in the way of the team in the pistons series. Sure Lebron has his faults but heís just so damn good and always has been. Lebrons been to 9 finals, sure he lost to the mavs who he had no business losing too, but that spurs team was elite and bosh and wade took major steps down. The warriors team was a different class. They would have murdered Kobeís championship teams. The fact that lebron made 8 straight finals 4 with the Cavs is amazing.
    Yeah, Kobe was #2 (arguably in the league lol). Any player in the league would've been #2 as shaq's teammate during that time. It's different when you're a superstar and a top 5 player versus when you're a star but not on that elite level. Kobe was at that elite level for 2 of those 3. For the first one, he was very similar to what Pippen did. Saying Kobe's ego got in the way is also pretty biased. Yes, it's true but it's only part of the story. Shaq's ego got in the way just the same (and shaq is on record multiple times acknowledging this).

    As for LBJ making the finals 9 times...that doesn't carry much weight because (1) it was done in the east which was absolutely horrible and consisted of maybe 2-3 playoff caliber teams and because (2) LBJ had to title hop to get those titles (whiteout which he would likely have 0). How many would Kobe have won if he used a similar strategy? Probably a lot more than 3...but that's all I'll say on that for now because I'm holding off on addressing this until the end of the season.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 04-30-2020 at 03:19 PM.

  9. #3804
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxplayerxx23 View Post
    Lebron is probably top 3. Kobe I could see maybe as a top 8 at best. Probably 10th.
    The disagreement on this thread isn't really all that much of where Kobe ranks. I have him a little higher than most of you (#5), but it's more of where I rank LBJ (#9). Most of you responding to me however are explicitly on record (on this thread no less) saying that you very much disliked Kobe and love LBJ, which makes these positions very biased. I at least have nothing against LBJ and enjoy watching him play.

  10. #3805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Sure, people can disagree, apply that same logic here (and to the long list of their peers who pick Kobe over LBJ, which is posted throughout this thread). The individual awards are mostly meaningless, because the point of the game is to win a title (and the MVP award is completely meaningless because it's a popularity contest and usually goes to a guy who has a feel good type of season, not necessarily the guy who impacted the game the most that season). It's also silly to bring up Kobe's first 3 titles in the context that you just did, because it completely ignores that for the last 2 of those he was at the superstar level. For the first title, sure his role was actually pretty similar to what Pippen's role was and if that's the role that Kobe played for the other 2 than absolutely you would have a point. However, for the last 2 of the 3 Kobe was in the discussion for being the best player in the league and there were whispers at the time of him being better than Shaq (he wasn't, but it was close). That was never the case for someone like Pippen.
    Yes, AS A TEAM. You keep ignoring the point you mention is done by a team and not an individual. An MVP is a better indicator of individual play than a ring is. Horry has 7 rings but I still take pretty much anyone with MVP's over him. It is common sense that individual awards are for individuals and rings are a team award for TEAMS.

    No it makes complete sense. Again Kobe had a phenominal run in the 01 playoffs but he was not an MVP level players those years at his peak and all attention was on Shaq (clear best player in NBA at time) as they rolled through the league.

    Kobe per 36 over 3 peat: 21.8, 4.2, 4.9 on 45%
    Pippen per 36 in first 3 peat: 17.7, 5.3, 7.2 on 48%

    These are their playoff numbers for each's respective 3 peat as the secondary player to MJ/Shaq. They are similar players and neither is at all time great level, I think Pippen was better defensively than Kobe as well.

    Kobe was not some all time great during those titles, he was similar to a Pippen level player moreso.

  11. #3806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    In 2001 and on Kobe eclipsed anything Pippen ever did and at that point yes, Kobe was better than the massive majority of superstars who have ever played the game. Thats where Kobe was at the time.
    Agreed that post season was better. Pippen had better postseasons than Kobe's 00 and 02 though. That one good post season does not mean he is a drastically better player and we ignore all other evidence lol.

  12. #3807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nope, if we flip that order than you are correct. And you didn't call out any faulty logic at all. You brought up the Russell thing which has been answered pretty resoundingly so try again.
    I clearly did. You keep trying to use team accomplishments to rank individuals. When it's pointed out as faulty you try to make this very narrow view where two similar players get completely different credit (young Kobe/Pippen on his runs) just because YOU label one a superstar and the other not.

    You are trying any way possible to give extra credit to the 2nd star on one team while denying an all time great putting up similar impact during his titles to fit a narrative.

  13. #3808
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Yes, AS A TEAM. You keep ignoring the point you mention is done by a team and not an individual. An MVP is a better indicator of individual play than a ring is. Horry has 7 rings but I still take pretty much anyone with MVP's over him. It is common sense that individual awards are for individuals and rings are a team award for TEAMS.

    No it makes complete sense. Again Kobe had a phenominal run in the 01 playoffs but he was not an MVP level players those years at his peak and all attention was on Shaq (clear best player in NBA at time) as they rolled through the league.

    Kobe per 36 over 3 peat: 21.8, 4.2, 4.9 on 45%
    Pippen per 36 in first 3 peat: 17.7, 5.3, 7.2 on 48%

    These are their playoff numbers for each's respective 3 peat as the secondary player to MJ/Shaq. They are similar players and neither is at all time great level, I think Pippen was better defensively than Kobe as well.

    Kobe was not some all time great during those titles, he was similar to a Pippen level player moreso.
    First of all, Kobe is over 4 pts higher, which is not trivial (an entire 2 possessions), second these numbers are skewed for Kobe during the first title, because he was still not an elite player. Kobe was an elite player for the last 2. Kobe was absolutely an MVP level player in 2001 and 2002 and you'd get laughed out of any forum had you gone in and said that during that time. He wasn't in 2000, but he certainly was pretty much after that point up until 2013 when he tore his Achilles. Pippen never put up a season like Kobe did in 01 or 02. To make that comparison is silly.

  14. #3809
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Yes, AS A TEAM. You keep ignoring the point you mention is done by a team and not an individual. An MVP is a better indicator of individual play than a ring is. Horry has 7 rings but I still take pretty much anyone with MVP's over him. It is common sense that individual awards are for individuals and rings are a team award for TEAMS.

    No it makes complete sense. Again Kobe had a phenominal run in the 01 playoffs but he was not an MVP level players those years at his peak and all attention was on Shaq (clear best player in NBA at time) as they rolled through the league.

    Kobe per 36 over 3 peat: 21.8, 4.2, 4.9 on 45%
    Pippen per 36 in first 3 peat: 17.7, 5.3, 7.2 on 48%

    These are their playoff numbers for each's respective 3 peat as the secondary player to MJ/Shaq. They are similar players and neither is at all time great level, I think Pippen was better defensively than Kobe as well.

    Kobe was not some all time great during those titles, he was similar to a Pippen level player moreso.
    I already explained why the MVP is not a great indicator of anything so that's kind of silly to keep bringing that up. Also silly to bring up the 7 rings Horry has because he was never a superstar. You can replace Horry, but we cannot replace someone like Kobe. It's a team accomplishment to win a title, sure. But that team is built around the stars of the team. That's why it matters.

  15. #3810
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    I actually just looked it up...and yes, Kobe's playoff performances during the 01 and 02 seasons blow anything Pippen ever did out of the water. Those are superstar, HOF caliber type of numbers from Kobe, because that's what he was at that point. Pippen's playoff numbers during this first 3-peat are very solid, similar to what someone like Klay Thompson might put. Massive, massive difference. The fact that mngopher35 just tried to make this comparison and went so far as to say that Pippen had a better playoffs in 02 shows just how biased mngopher35 is on this topic (i.e., anti Kobe).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 04-30-2020 at 03:42 PM.

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