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  1. #346
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    https://www.therichest.com/basketbal...s-of-all-time/

    For a while, James was on the “Greatest Chokers of All Time” lists. During his first stint with Cleveland, his teams always faltered at the end, with James often “missing” or having to carry too much of a load. Once he “took his talents to South Beach,” James started winning rings and became known as the guy you want to have the ball at the end of the game. What makes James so dangerous is that he is a threat to shoot, drive or execute a winning assist. He can do it all. Already one of the all-time greatest players, James still doesn’t have a moment, or winning shot that gets referenced like Jordan, Magic Johnson or Larry Bird. There’s still time and he will have the opportunity to make it happen in Cleveland, where it still hard to believe he wasn’t considered clutch.

    Early in his career, Bryant always wanted the shot even if he wasn’t quite ready for it. It’s as if Bryant was preparing for a career of title runs, meaningful playoff games and shots with the game on the line. Well played, Kobe, well played. Bryant would grown into the role of clutch shooter and lead his teams to five championships. Granted, Bryant had some memorable teammates and he did push a lot of them away. It was still Bryant with the ball in his hands at the end of the game. Win or lose, that ball was not leaving his hands.

  2. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Bro, these are clearly jokes. Kobe averaged almost 5 assists a game for his career (was about 5 actually but decreased after the achilles injury). Whenever the game was close, kobe would usually become the pg and he became the primary ball handler. I really do wonder if you watched the games back then. The same jokes are always made about players who score a lot, they're usually just that though...jokes.
    Can we go back that he stat pad like everyone else. Passing early on and trying to take over in the 4th ala MJ

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Can we go back that he stat pad like everyone else. Passing early on and trying to take over in the 4th ala MJ
    Absolutely not. Kobe did not stat pad at all. He had one goal and that was to win. He didn't care what that entailed and he didn't care what his stats looked like in that process.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nope, that is wrong. The best basketball play is not always to pass it. It depends on the type of shot that the person who you are passing it to will have versus the type of shot that you can get. It also depends on the type of shots that you are capable of making and that the person who is receiving the ball can make. The answer to this question thus depends on who the player with the ball is and who the player's teammates on the court are and who the ball is going to. One fundamental difference I'm picking up on is that you tend to think there are absolutes in basketball where the answer is always going to be the same. This is simply not true, in basketball, the answer always depends on the context.
    Your logic is so incredibly flawed. Sure, the best basketball play isn't to pass every time, but it also isn't to shoot every time. And you're crediting kobe for not passing to the "cold" player when the only reason that player is "cold" is because kobe never passes.

    But this debate is so dumb. Anyone who actually argues kobe is either a homer or a troll. Basically any advanced metric validates that lebron was better. LeBron has had 8 seasons better than kobes best PER season. Kobe had 5 seasons worse than lebrons worse PER season, which was lebrons rookie year. That year was a bit of an outlier to the point where kobe only had 3 seasons better than lebrons 2nd worse PER season. If PER isn't your stat, basically every other advanced metric tells the same story.

    LeBron has a real argument for the best to ever play the game. Jordan is realistically the only guy who's in the discussion with him. Maybe there's a few others who deserve some love to at least be in the conversation, but kobe isn't one of them. Kobe was a great player, but nowhere near lebron.

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Absolutely not. Kobe did not stat pad at all. He had one goal and that was to win. He didn't care what that entailed and he didn't care what his stats looked like in that process.
    now this is funny

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    Your logic is so incredibly flawed. Sure, the best basketball play isn't to pass every time, but it also isn't to shoot every time. And you're crediting kobe for not passing to the "cold" player when the only reason that player is "cold" is because kobe never passes.

    But this debate is so dumb. Anyone who actually argues kobe is either a homer or a troll. Basically any advanced metric validates that lebron was better. LeBron has had 8 seasons better than kobes best PER season. Kobe had 5 seasons worse than lebrons worse PER season, which was lebrons rookie year. That year was a bit of an outlier to the point where kobe only had 3 seasons better than lebrons 2nd worse PER season. If PER isn't your stat, basically every other advanced metric tells the same story.

    LeBron has a real argument for the best to ever play the game. Jordan is realistically the only guy who's in the discussion with him. Maybe there's a few others who deserve some love to at least be in the conversation, but kobe isn't one of them. Kobe was a great player, but nowhere near lebron.
    First of all, my argument on this point was that we don't know what the best basketball play is unless we go back and analyze the data situationally. not that it's better to pass or shoot. And if you read my post carefully, you will see that I said it (what the best basketball play is) likely DEPENDS on who the players involved are.

    Second, go back read this thread. I won't rehash every point I've made, but it essentially boils down to advanced analytics being meaningless and there are a decent amount of strong examples to show this. The evidence in favor of LBJ are those numbers and not much else. As I have also posted here, there is a very long list of their peers who pick kobe over LBJ (including LBJ's teammates, such as Wade, Bosh, Kyrie; former elite defenders who guarded both, such as Iggy, Tony Allen, Kawhi; and former great players, MJ, Shaq, Barkely, Kareem). Also note, that their peers are not homers or trolls, hell wade is LBJ's best friend. The consensus among their peers is kobe.

    On the one hand there are the advanced analytics for LBJ and on the other hand there are their peers and the titles for Kobe. I have explained all of these extensively in this thread so please read those before responding...I am happy to respond to any points I have previously made, but I won't rehash them again here.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-20-2019 at 12:24 PM.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    now this is funny
    It's rich that you would say kobe was stat padding when LBJ is probably the greatest stat padder in NBA history

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's rich that you would say kobe was stat padding when LBJ is probably the greatest stat padder in NBA history
    Did i not say he stat pad like everyone else? you on the other had deny Kobe did such thing.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Did i not say he stat pad like everyone else? you on the other had deny Kobe did such thing.
    No I don't think that he did. I also don't think that a lot of players stat pad. Don't forget that kobe could have easily won a scoring title in 2012 had he played the last game of the season (I think he needed 38 points), but he decided to sit out because he wanted to rest for the playoffs. Not too many players would give away a scoring title like that if they are concerned about their stats.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    First of all, my argument on this point was that we don't know what the best basketball play is unless we go back and analyze the data situationally. not that it's better to pass or shoot. And if you read my post carefully, you will see that I said it (what the best basketball play is) likely DEPENDS on who the players involved are.

    Second, go back read this thread. I won't rehash every point I've made, but it essentially boils down to advanced analytics being meaningless and there are a decent amount of strong examples to show this. The evidence in favor of LBJ are those numbers and not much else. As I have also posted here, there is a very long list of their peers who pick kobe over LBJ (including LBJ's teammates, such as Wade, Bosh, Kyrie; former elite defenders who guarded both, such as Iggy, Tony Allen, Kawhi; and former great players, MJ, Shaq, Barkely, Kareem). Also note, that their peers are not homers or trolls, hell wade is LBJ's best friend. The consensus among their peers is kobe.

    On the one hand there are the advanced analytics for LBJ and on the other hand there are their peers and the titles for Kobe. I have explained all of these extensively in this thread so please read those before responding...I am happy to respond to any points I have previously made, but I won't rehash them again here.
    in this case it seem like all the plays was the same.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No I don't think that he did. I also don't think that a lot of players stat pad. Don't forget that kobe could have easily won a scoring title in 2012 had he played the last game of the season (I think he needed like 23 points or something), but he decided to sit out because he wanted to rest for the playoffs. Not too many players would give away a scoring title like that if they are concerned about their stats.
    And that is funny. he did like everyone else. To the point its just 1 step behind MJ even his goal was to win 6. Kobe wanted to be just like mike or better.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    And that is funny. he did like everyone else. To the point its just 1 step behind MJ even his goal was to win 6. Kobe wanted to be just like mike or better.

    you think wanting to win championships is the same as stat padding rebounds or assists or shooting percentage?

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    And that is funny. he did like everyone else. To the point its just 1 step behind MJ even his goal was to win 6. Kobe wanted to be just like mike or better.
    But winning titles is different than stat padding.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael811 View Post
    you think wanting to win championships is the same as stat padding rebounds or assists or shooting percentage?
    Exactly, those are completely different. The point of the game is to win a title not to get statistics.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael811 View Post
    you think wanting to win championships is the same as stat padding rebounds or assists or shooting percentage?
    He did every thing to be like mike and that to avg a certain amount to do so. That is why it was important for him to shoot.

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