Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 185 of 197 FirstFirst ... 85135175183184185186187195 ... LastLast
Results 2,761 to 2,775 of 2944
  1. #2761
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    109,708
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I dont think you quite grasp what having that extra star leads to. There are only 48 minutes per position and each position makes up 1/5 or 20% of the lineup. Shaq is only one player. By having a 3rd star, you basically eliminate make it so that you can almost always have an elite player if not 2 on the court throughout the game. This also adds a tremendous amount of depth, because this kind of player is going to usually play 36 minutes plus or something close to that. All of that aside, yes, even if Shaq is better than Wade and Bosh together, if LBJ is as good as you guys are saying the amount that he is better than kobe is going to outweigh whatever advantage Shaq has over Wade and Bosh.
    i dont think you understand how big a deal it is for a lesser player to have a top 3 player ever in Shaq... teams come in trying to stop shaq and only shaq on any of those laker teams... imagine if lebron was on a team where the other teams main focus was to just stop a Shaq type player and not him... even now lebron is in his 100th season and teams come in trying to stop him over AD. You just completely ignore this logic because it doesnt fit your insanely one sided bias for kobe

  2. #2762
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,784
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    I didn't include any years with Shaq though so it doesn't factor in anyways.

    The Spurs do guard James well but I don't think him producing at high levels held back the heat, it was the lack of defense and Wade falling off big. By that point he was not the same Wade of old on either end and put up like 15 ppg but not efficiently. That Heat team had dropped off and the Spurs were hot but Lebron was still Lebron and the 3rd option like Bosh still was efficient off his creating even against said spurs defense. The main issue they had was defense as well as Spurs had a 120 ortg for the series. We saw them just take off when Lebron went down with Cramps, he was not an issue that series the rest of the team was in multiple ways though.

    To be clear you think the billups/Melo Nuggets are comparable to those Spurs? I am not sure how you are seperating excecution and talent here. Like Just because players are old does not mean they are less talented they just have less of some things (athletics) but possibly improved in other areas (decision making, shooting, positioning, footwork etc). It is all talent, it seems like you are continuously picking hairs and ignoring actual context to make arguments at this point.

    Stats don't matter and aren't real but you try and use some weird unknown or shown stats to say they were different in scoring. Then actual numbers are provided with specific years given and you bring up a time outside that range. I have no idea how any explanation of talent ends up in the Spurs Duncan/Manu/Parker/Kawhi behind Billups/Melo Denver team tbh. You ignore the real issues for the heat to just try and blame James offense being easy to guard despite his numbers (and Wade's clear drop off/team defense).
    The ability to perform goes away once the athleticism stars to dwindle. Sure, those guys on the spurs were excellent players at some point, but not anywhere near what they used to be, just like Dwight Howard used to be a great center but he's not that anymore. 2009 Melo was easily a much better than any player the spurs had on that roster during that time. Duncan was better than 2009 Melo 6 years or so before that and KL would become better than 2009 Melo a few years later, but in 2013 or 2014 those comparisons weren't even close. KL was a good role player at that point. In 2013 Duncan was a low-end all-star and in 2014 he was a full blown role player. Ginobli was also a full blown role player. Tony Parker was easily the best player on that team. Those spurs were basically Tony Parker and company.

  3. #2763
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,784
    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    i dont think you understand how big a deal it is for a lesser player to have a top 3 player ever in Shaq... teams come in trying to stop shaq and only shaq on any of those laker teams... imagine if lebron was on a team where the other teams main focus was to just stop a Shaq type player and not him... even now lebron is in his 100th season and teams come in trying to stop him over AD. You just completely ignore this logic because it doesnt fit your insanely one sided bias for kobe
    I'm not convinced 21 yr old LBJ would be able to win anymore than Kobe (because that's the version you'd have to put on that team because that's how old kobe was when he played with shaq). You also conveniently ignore that when kobe was the main guy with Pau he won as much as LBJ did with Wade and Bosh, despite the fact that LBJ played far weaker competition (LBJ really won slightly less because one of those titles came on a shortened season). More talent, weaker competition and still manages the same number of titles? That doesn't quite add up does it? If LBJ is that much better than Kobe, what gives?

  4. #2764
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    109,708
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not convinced 21 yr old LBJ would be able to win anymore than Kobe (because that's the version you'd have to put on that team because that's how old kobe was when he played with shaq). You also conveniently ignore that when kobe was the main guy with Pau he won as much as LBJ did with Wade and Bosh, despite the fact that LBJ played far weaker competition (LBJ really won slightly less because one of those titles came on a shortened season). More talent, weaker competition and still manages the same number of titles? That doesn't quite add up does it? If LBJ is that much better than Kobe, what gives?
    lebron james at 21 had a better season over any of kobes so yes a 21 year old lebron wins titles with Shaq... hell they probably break 70 plus regular season wins as well.

  5. #2765
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    109,708
    21 year old lebron also beats that pistons team with shaq

  6. #2766
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,784
    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    lebron james at 21 had a better season over any of kobes so yes a 21 year old lebron wins titles with Shaq... hell they probably break 70 plus regular season wins as well.
    Yet he couldnt win more with more talent playing vastly inferior competition than kobe did with pau. What's going on? That clearly doesn't add up. If LBJ is better than kobe, especially if it's by as much as you say it is, he should've won more not as much during that stint.

  7. #2767
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,784
    Alright guys, I'm done here. I'll be in the laker forum until the season is over, at which point I will revisit this thread and see if LBJ is able to bring home a title with yet another incredibly talented and deep team he's been fortunate enough to play on.

  8. #2768
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    109,708
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yet he couldnt win more with more talent playing vastly inferior competition than kobe did with pau. What's going on? That clearly doesn't add up. If LBJ is better than kobe, especially if it's by as much as you say it is, he should've won more not as much during that stint.
    well one guy was loaded with talent most of his career and the other had to go and get himself some help because of his lack of help... also without another star kobe got so pissed off he tried to force a trade out of the lakers.... when has lebron ever done that?

  9. #2769
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    14,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I've already pointed out multiple times how that specific stat you just cited produces some laughably outlandish outcomes with guys who are unquestionably role players being ranked higher than true stars and it happens every single year and it happens pretty frequently. Your response was to use cross reference, which is silly because the whole argument is that those numbers do not allow for player assessment. The response is "well lets just use more of them then", which will at best cloud the assessment even further. You can move along now.
    Your problem is that you think this stat represents the best player...it doesnít. The stat represents which player has the highest impact on overall team scoring. Meaning he can fit into the offense and produce and allow for others to produce next to him and combined produce the most efficient and higher scoring offense compared to when heís not on the court. So just one player is higher than another doesnít mean he is better, but it does mean that he scores without taking away from others and or makes others score more and more efficiently thus creating a better scoring overall offense. AD can score better than 99% of the league, but if other players score a lot worse when heís in the court, then maybe the overall offense is better but not as much as a guy who scores half as much but fits in and makes everyone else score so much better. So a player like John Stockton or Steph Curry May be very high even though neither of them may be better than AD, there points are all within offensive flow and there teammates may also just play better when they are in the court. So these stats are made to be cross referenced and thatís what you donít understand. They arenít made to tell who is better. This particular stat tells us who makes The overall offense better when inserted into the lineup. This seems to be going over your head because you keep saying cross referencing means itís muddying up the stat, but itís doing the opposite. Itís adding to the overall facets of a single player on all the different ways a player effects the game.

  10. #2770
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    14,923
    If the Heat has Another Lebron instaed if Bosh and Wade they would of been better. Conversely if the Lakers has two Kobeís instead of Shaq and Kobe, they never would of won a ring.

    In all the rings they won. Lebron was better than the combination of Wade and Bosh.

    Thread/

  11. #2771
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    16,918
    Did kobe retire a star? what do you mean they had no star players? you just made that up to fit your context. Why you degrade others to prop up Kobe? Kobe was a star to no one is taking anything from him.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-15-2019 at 12:28 AM.

  12. #2772
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    8,937
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The ability to perform goes away once the athleticism stars to dwindle. Sure, those guys on the spurs were excellent players at some point, but not anywhere near what they used to be, just like Dwight Howard used to be a great center but he's not that anymore. 2009 Melo was easily a much better than any player the spurs had on that roster during that time. Duncan was better than 2009 Melo 6 years or so before that and KL would become better than 2009 Melo a few years later, but in 2013 or 2014 those comparisons weren't even close. KL was a good role player at that point. In 2013 Duncan was a low-end all-star and in 2014 he was a full blown role player. Ginobli was also a full blown role player. Tony Parker was easily the best player on that team. Those spurs were basically Tony Parker and company.
    Athleticism isn't the only measure though. I agree they weren't what they used to be but they were very good. The version of Wade/Bosh with Lebron matching up to Shaq is lol in and of itself but then your description to defend it above applies much much better in the Spurs scenario even if you do think Melo was clearly better.

    Impact stats, defense and so on would point to there being some questions on Melo's overall impact. I mean Tony Parker wasn't easily the best player on that team either. There is just so much to unpack that is wrong in almost every post you have. That team was all about being an amazing fit with a mix of ready made vets and an up and coming superstar. I agree they didn't have one all star but all of them mixed together with role players like danny green etc. made for the team with the top SRS that seasons despite us knowing how they often rest up (first time leading league since 2007 for them too).

    You have already moved on from all the initial arguments it seems as well. As I said you just seem to throw whatever you want out there to fit a specific argument even if it goes directly against a different point you have made. You stop responding to key points/issues in your arguments when clearly wrong and never address how that would affect the way you portray the situations etc. I mean we are actually discussing if 2014 Spurs were the better team than the 09 Nuggets (a team that would follow this up with 2 first round exits before being blown up, despite the talented star of Carmelo). Cmon man.

  13. #2773
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    16,918
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yet he couldnt win more with more talent playing vastly inferior competition than kobe did with pau. What's going on? That clearly doesn't add up. If LBJ is better than kobe, especially if it's by as much as you say it is, he should've won more not as much during that stint.
    why you always revert back to this. Its proven Kobe had just as much talent if not More, None of Lebron teammmate were on par with Shaq, its proven Kobe had the better coach non of Lebron coaches won a title. Dont forget its Pat that coached Shaq and Wade, Its proven if Kobe was on a team that was not winning he was out, its proven Kobe numbers are not on par with MJ and Lebron, Its proven Lebron is a great player playing in the east or the west, Its a fact Kobe has 2 finals MVP vs 3 MVP. And yes Kobe has 5 rings to Lebrons 3.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-15-2019 at 12:31 AM.

  14. #2774
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    16,918
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Athleticism isn't the only measure though. I agree they weren't what they used to be but they were very good. The version of Wade/Bosh with Lebron matching up to Shaq is lol in and of itself but then your description to defend it above applies much much better in the Spurs scenario even if you do think Melo was clearly better.

    Impact stats, defense and so on would point to there being some questions on Melo's overall impact. I mean Tony Parker wasn't easily the best player on that team either. There is just so much to unpack that is wrong in almost every post you have. That team was all about being an amazing fit with a mix of ready made vets and an up and coming superstar. I agree they didn't have one all star but all of them mixed together with role players like danny green etc. made for the team with the top SRS that seasons despite us knowing how they often rest up (first time leading league since 2007 for them too).

    You have already moved on from all the initial arguments it seems as well. As I said you just seem to throw whatever you want out there to fit a specific argument even if it goes directly against a different point you have made. You stop responding to key points/issues in your arguments when clearly wrong and never address how that would affect the way you portray the situations etc. I mean we are actually discussing if 2014 Spurs were the better team than the 09 Nuggets (a team that would follow this up with 2 first round exits before being blown up, despite the talented star of Carmelo). Cmon man.
    I dont think he realize the better team wins not the better Player. The best player would not get out in the 1st round or not make the playoffs without help. On top of that having the better team is not the only factor.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-15-2019 at 12:57 AM.

  15. #2775
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    16,918
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not convinced 21 yr old LBJ would be able to win anymore than Kobe (because that's the version you'd have to put on that team because that's how old kobe was when he played with shaq). You also conveniently ignore that when kobe was the main guy with Pau he won as much as LBJ did with Wade and Bosh, despite the fact that LBJ played far weaker competition (LBJ really won slightly less because one of those titles came on a shortened season). More talent, weaker competition and still manages the same number of titles? That doesn't quite add up does it? If LBJ is that much better than Kobe, what gives?
    Lebron iq was higher, body was better and something tells me he was going to be the better teammate. Can we say it together. Kobe learned to win earlier in his career having Shaq, Phil and the others in his ear who won before ex horry, Dennis, Grant. etc

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •