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  1. #2461
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    In Kobe's time... you make it sound like they played like 25 years apart from each other.

    ok, well I think LBJ would have played no matter what team he was on because how gifted he was. I'm not sure if you remember or not but Lebron had a little bit of hype coming out of high school, dude was already box office in high school. If the coach of whatever team he was playing on was giving him 15 minutes of playing time, he would have been fired about 10 games into the season. Cavs doubled their win total with Lebron as a rookie, he woulda been just fine logging 35/40 mins on any team.
    They didn't play 25 years apart, but their rookie seasons occurred 8 years apart. A lot changes in 8 years, including the rules, how the game is called, the average age of the players (which has a major impact on how well younger players perform), and the norms about who plays and how many minutes.

    You make it seem like Kobe wasn't playing because he wasn't ready. That's not the case at all. Kobe was more than ready to play and would have likely had a big year were he drafted by a bad team. He wasn't playing all that much because the lakers had one of the best (1) sg in the league on the team, (2) they were contenders and Kobe was an 18-year old rookie, and (3) players out of hs were rarely given playing time in those days. If LBJ were drafted in 1996 and went to a contender that had an established all-star sf, I doubt LBJ would have been getting all that much playing time either or that he would've had a particularly large role. Not because LBJ wasn't ready, but because an 18-year old in that situation, especially during that time period, would be unlikely to get too much playing time. I'm sure he would get some playing time (just like Kobe did), but I doubt he would be getting major minutes and it definitely wouldn't be anywhere near the role that LBJ had as a rookie.

  2. #2462
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    i dont think bigmoves can separate winning vs the better player.
    I definitely can, but when the so-called better player has had better teams and played weaker competition, but yet managed to win substantially less (despite borderline cheating to get on better teams), it should seriously call into question whether said player is actually better.

  3. #2463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Who cares, it's one game. There are times when LBJ has done that as well. Referencing specific instances in which that's happened is pretty silly.
    My point is to point out to you is you bash lebron for doing what kobe does as well. Then say lebron canít win that way when Kobe, wade, lebron, Mj has won playing like that. They are not like Curry.

  4. #2464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I definitely can, but when the so-called better player has had better teams and played weaker competition, but yet managed to win substantially less (despite borderline cheating to get on better teams), it should seriously call into question whether said player is actually better.
    So in other words you are not factoring in coach, player styles, injuries.

    When Kobe was being knocked out by the suns and Nash won mvp. Kobe was the single best player however the team and coach was not up to par. And not because you play with a star mean he is the best fit. Wade and lebron was not the best of fit. Kobe and Kidd was not going to produce like Kobe and pau. At some point jr Smith was lebron best teammate in the finals. More than once

  5. #2465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    They didn't play 25 years apart, but their rookie seasons occurred 8 years apart. A lot changes in 8 years, including the rules, how the game is called, the average age of the players (which has a major impact on how well younger players perform), and the norms about who plays and how many minutes.

    You make it seem like Kobe wasn't playing because he wasn't ready. That's not the case at all. Kobe was more than ready to play and would have likely had a big year were he drafted by a bad team. He wasn't playing all that much because the lakers had one of the best (1) sg in the league on the team, (2) they were contenders and Kobe was an 18-year old rookie, and (3) players out of hs were rarely given playing time in those days. If LBJ were drafted in 1996 and went to a contender that had an established all-star sf, I doubt LBJ would have been getting all that much playing time either or that he would've had a particularly large role. Not because LBJ wasn't ready, but because an 18-year old in that situation, especially during that time period, would be unlikely to get too much playing time. I'm sure he would get some playing time (just like Kobe did), but I doubt he would be getting major minutes and it definitely wouldn't be anywhere near the role that LBJ had as a rookie.
    Yes he would have. Lebron was must see, super hyped and super talented and the whole world knew it. He would have been on the court. We both know this, I don't know why youre trying to dispute this.

    But it would have been awesome to see Lebron start his career off with an established team and franchise.
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 12-09-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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  6. #2466
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    My point is to point out to you is you bash lebron for doing what kobe does as well. Then say lebron canít win that way when Kobe, wade, lebron, Mj has won playing like that. They are not like Curry.
    It's not bashing a player to point out how they play. Kobe did that sometimes, but he played within the triangle. LBJ has never, ever played within a system. The system has been to do whatever he wants. It's not a winning style of play unless you have a super team that is good enough to make up for that sort of thing. That's not how Kobe or MJ or Wade won. The fact that you can't see this shows a lot. Sure, they went into that mode as well, but that wasn't their primary style of play.

  7. #2467
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    So in other words you are not factoring in coach, player styles, injuries.

    When Kobe was being knocked out by the suns and Nash won mvp. Kobe was the single best player however the team and coach was not up to par. And not because you play with a star mean he is the best fit. Wade and lebron was not the best of fit. Kobe and Kidd was not going to produce like Kobe and pau. At some point jr Smith was lebron best teammate in the finals. More than once
    I've factored in all of those things. Kobe won more despite having less talented teams and playing vastly superior competition. That's really all it comes down to. If LBJ is better (like the numbers say), he should have won more given that he's had better teams and played super weak competition. That hasn't happened so maybe those numbers are not really about who is better.

  8. #2468
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    This is the best team Lebron has been on. #TEAMGAME

  9. #2469
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    Yes he would have. Lebron was must see, super hyped and super talented and the whole world knew it. He would have been on the court. We both know this, I don't know why youre trying to dispute this.

    But it would have been awesome to see Lebron start his career off with an established team and franchise.
    No, I really do not think that LBJ would have started were he drafted by a contending team with an all-star player at his position in the mid 90s. Even in today's NBA he wouldn't start under those conditions. If the clippers, for example, were to draft LBJ right now...no way is LBJ going to start. He would come off the bench. He'd get minutes (more than he would have gotten in the mid 90s), but he wouldn't have a leading role on that sort of team as an 18-year old rookie.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-09-2019 at 12:48 PM.

  10. #2470
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    This is the best team Lebron has been on. #TEAMGAME
    Well we disagree on that, but if that's the case and he's still at basically an all-time level of play (you've said he's better than prime Kobe) then there can be no excuses come June. We're expecting a title or it would have been a massive failure. That's a lot to put on someone, but when you're vying for an all-time spot like LBJ is the expectation should be nothing less given the talent he has around him.

  11. #2471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's not bashing a player to point out how they play. Kobe did that sometimes, but he played within the triangle. LBJ has never, ever played within a system. The system has been to do whatever he wants. It's not a winning style of play unless you have a super team that is good enough to make up for that sort of thing. That's not how Kobe or MJ or Wade won. The fact that you can't see this shows a lot. Sure, they went into that mode as well, but that wasn't their primary style of play.
    so how does that fall on lebron. That is why I said gave him phill and he would have won more than 3 already. Lakers, phill, shaq would have put him in a better situation to win sooner and he would have gained from that experience and would not of needed to go to Miami.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-09-2019 at 01:12 PM.

  12. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    so how does that fall on lebron. That is why I said gave him phill and he would have won more than 3 already. Lakers, phill, shaq would have put him in a better situation to win sooner and he would have gained from that experience and would not of needed to go to Miami.
    Sure, he might have...but he almost certainly wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers he has and as a result likely wouldn't be hyped up anywhere to the level that he currently is by the media.

  13. #2473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, I really do not think that LBJ would have started were he drafted by a contending team with an all-star player at his position in the mid 90s. Even in today's NBA he wouldn't start under those conditions. If the clippers, for example, were to draft LBJ right now...no way is LBJ going to start. He would come off the bench. He'd get minutes (more than he would have gotten in the mid 90s), but he wouldn't have a leading role on that sort of team as an 18-year old rookie.
    So Eddie Jones is on the same level as Kawhi? No wonder this thread is still going....

    Whatever team that was going to draft Lebron, was going to draft him to play... doesn't matter what year or decade he would be in. If he had the same hype coming into the draft as he did, he was going to be on the court 35/40 mins a game.
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 12-09-2019 at 01:29 PM.
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  14. #2474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Sure, he might have...but he almost certainly wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers he has and as a result likely wouldn't be hyped up anywhere to the level that he currently is by the media.
    Why not Mj did. Phil would have took advantage of his skills and modify the triangle. Remember a season phill wanted Kobe distribute that was quickly abandon. For obvious reasons.

  15. #2475
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    So Eddie Jones is on the same level as Kawhi? No wonder this thread is still going....

    Whatever team that was going to draft Lebron, was going to draft him to play... doesn't matter what year or decade he would be in. If he had the same hype coming into the draft as he did, he was going to be on the court 35/40 mins a game.
    No KL and Eddie jones were not on the same level, but it was an example of how a player out of hs is never going to replace a starter who is an all-star caliber player. You can keep saying that until you're blue in the face, the fact is that hs players in the 90s (and rookies as well) were not given that much playing time if they ended up on good teams. It was as much a cultural thing as it was an ability thing. It just wasn't done at the time. The NBA has gone away from that, but you still see it in other sports where the young guy (even if he's better than the veteran (who doesn't even have to be an all-star anymore) will play behind the veteran (sometimes for a few years depending on the sport).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-09-2019 at 01:40 PM.

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