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  1. #2386
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    this is Kobe out a system not named triangle

    There's no question the Lakers have been the league's most disappointing team this season.

    To say L.A. has a chemistry issue would be to say Craig Sager has a fashion issue.

    Even with arguably the NBA's best players at two of the five positions, the Lakers limped to a 9-14 start to the 2012-13 season. Currently on their third head coach, the Lakers have begun to show signs of turning things around but still have plenty of issues to work out.

    Offensively, taking care of the ball has been an issue.

    L.A. ranks 29th out of 30 teams in turnovers per game, thanks in part to getting used to new players and poor on-court communication.

    On defense, the Lakers have been referred to as "lazy" in both their schemes and efforts.

    In this video, you can see some of the problems the Lakers have in their early-season loss to the Cleveland Cavaliers.

    A healthy Steve Nash will certainly help, but for now, the Lakers have some of the worst chemistry in the NBA. When Nash missed time, it didn't help that backup Steve Blake was unavailable due to his own injury issues.

    In Mike D'Antoni's fast-paced offense, point guard play is even more crucial. We saw how inept the Lakers could look when they lacked a true floor general.


    Heat

    While things didn't click right away for the Heat, Miami has since come together quite nicely as a team.

    The core of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh is now in its third season with two Finals appearances and one Finals win already.

    Off to an 18-6 start to begin the 2012-13 season, the Heat rank fourth in both assists (23) and points per game (103.4).

    While veteran role players like Shane Battier and Ray Allen bring a lot to the chemistry department, everything starts with James and Wade.

    While the team has struggled at times, these two superstars always seem to be on the same page on the court both offensively and defensively.

    Passes like these only help to further prove the point.

    It also helps that James is capable of playing just about every position on the floor. That versatility from the Heat's star player is huge should injuries occur or if coach Erik Spoelstra wants to shake up his rotation.
    You mean the year kobe was in his 17th season and was the 2nd best player in the league? Yep, he was still amazing even though he was in his 17th year and was no longer in the triangle. He carried a team full of injured players with a horrible coach to the playoffs. Great season by Kobe. Thanks for reminding people of this feat.

  2. #2387
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    so now he carried stars and not playing and meshing with them? 3 coaches? Harden and Nash did it. what year is Lebron in now? I never heard you said Cavs were injured and still went finals. Oh it was the east with a rookie coach so it was easier.

  3. #2388
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    you do not like numbers so do with it as you may.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...ct_season.html

  4. #2389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Oh I see, you mean the data that is not intended and should not be used to assess players? That data? Yeah, I already explained to you why that's not appropriate to use that data in that manner two posts ago so I won't do it again here, but maybe if you keep repeating the same thing you will convince yourself lol. Wade was still in his prime with LBJ and shaq was still a star with wade (fairly better than Gasol actually ever was). The decrease in Wade's numbers are mostly due to LBJ turning stars into role players. It's funny how whenever the guys you try to put up over kobe fall short on what's important you resort to "they were past their prime at that point". And no, you were not right about kobe. You used to say all kinds of nonsense about him and how he couldn't lead a team to a title on his own and then rather then admit you were wrong you went silent and tried to attack him via a different route.
    No, not that data. You havent proven **** outside an utter inability to understand statistics, hence your joke of a post about Miami being favored. No I never did anything like that, I always said anyone can win a title if the support is great enough, been my stance since day 1. Kobe only made me money with his failures so I dont care what your flawed memory believes. And no Wade was not in his prime and any idiot could tell you that, nothing you've said about the supporting casts are true, Shaq was beneath sidekick Kobe level was my point but I could see a good comparison with Pau, I would just need to see ur argument for that first.

    As for your take on how the lakers were better without kobe, this is laughable and again highlights how you don't know how to interpret data. If a measurement leads to an absurd conclusion (and your take here is about as absurd as it can get), it usually means that you aren't drawing the right conclusion, or that the measurement isn't very useful or reliable, or both.
    Actually its a well known fact that was documented on the championship DVD. Its based on how Kobe held the team back with his ball hoggery at different segments throughout his career, its what led to his HOF coach wanting him traded, to his superior teammate saying things like "If the dog dont get fed, he wont protect the yard" and how he criticised the teams offense and compared the success rate from one RS to the next. These are well documented facts. What data was brought up here? I've only made factual statements backed by the players/team at large.

    If you actually believe that nonsense, then your position should be that shaq and the lakers would have 3-peat WITHOUT kobe.
    Your confusion stems from your utter lack of reading comprehension. They needed each other for that feat, because Kobe would eventually get his act together (which was documented in their championship DVD about how he learned from the experience of seeing his teams success without him) but one was CLEARLY more valuable.


    It wasn't until kobe became a star that the lakers won. Shaq couldn't carry a team with 3 other all-stars and a loaded bench to a title. Once kobe became a star things changed. Shaq needed kobe, and no, Wade wouldnt be able to replace him because wade was never on the same level as kobe and it wasn't ever really that close either (and any data that doesn't show that is clearly useless data).
    It wasn't until Phil came along too. Not buying that the team was more talented, nothing you've said thus far has shown me you can remember accurately (you thought Magic played C in G7, couldn't remember KG pulling the strings) nor assess talent accurately (you hyped up Ira Newble ffs) nor understand statistics (still waiting on ANY form of objective data that backs your assertions but alas "WORK" is to blame for your lack of effort). Keep on trucking guy, you are CLEARLY suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect.
    Last edited by Chronz; 12-08-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  5. #2390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You mean the year kobe was in his 17th season and was the 2nd best player in the league? Yep, he was still amazing even though he was in his 17th year and was no longer in the triangle. He carried a team full of injured players with a horrible coach to the playoffs. Great season by Kobe. Thanks for reminding people of this feat.
    What are you basing the absurd opinion that he was the 2nd best player in the league on?

  6. #2391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    No, not that data. You havent proven **** outside an utter inability to understand statistics, hence your joke of a post about Miami being favored. No I never did anything like that, I always said anyone can win a title if the support is great enough, been my stance since day 1. Kobe only made me money with his failures so I dont care what your flawed memory believes. And no Wade was not in his prime and any idiot could tell you that, nothing you've said about the supporting casts are true, Shaq was beneath sidekick Kobe level was my point but I could see a good comparison with Pau, I would just need to see ur argument for that first.


    Actually its a well known fact that was documented on the championship DVD. Its based on how Kobe held the team back with his ball hoggery at different segments throughout his career, its what led to his HOF coach wanting him traded, to his superior teammate saying things like "If the dog dont get fed, he wont protect the yard" and how he criticised the teams offense and compared the success rate from one RS to the next. These are well documented facts. What data was brought up here? I've only made factual statements backed by the players/team at large.


    Your confusion stems from your utter lack of reading comprehension. They needed each other for that feat, because Kobe would eventually get his act together (which was documented in their championship DVD about how he learned from the experience of seeing his teams success without him) but one was CLEARLY more valuable.



    It wasn't until Phil came along too. Not buying that the team was more talented, nothing you've said thus far has shown me you can remember accurately (you thought Magic played C in G7, couldn't remember KG pulling the strings) nor assess talent accurately (you hyped up Ira Newble ffs) nor understand statistics (still waiting on ANY form of objective data that backs your assertions but alas "WORK" is to blame for your lack of effort). Keep on trucking guy, you are CLEARLY suffering from the Dunning Kruger effect.
    Hahahahaha, you are precious dude. You just told an expert on statistics that they don't understand statistics hahahahaha...You also clearly don't understand the Dunning Kruger effect (you are throwing around psychology terms to a cognitive scientist lol)...this is one area where one of us is an actual professional and is in the big leagues and the other is you.

    I'll address the part of your post that isn't completely laughable. So you're basing kobe hurting the team on a DVD and a few comments from teammates during the first title run? Gotcha. As for Wade, he was widely acknowledged as the 3rd best player in the league going into 2011 and was only 29 years old...if he wasn't in his prime at that point, it begs the question of whether he ever had a prime lol. Anyone paying attention can see that Wade couldn't be Wade because of LBJ. At any rate, whether Wade was or wasn't in his prime, if he was more effective than Kobe (which you said he was; although anyone can see that's absurd), with LBJ and Bosh and a deep bench, he should have been able to help his team pull off the 3-peat (which shaq and kobe were able to do), especially since the heat had an easy path to the finals every year and didn't play particularly tough teams in the finals either. Clearly that didn't happen. Somehow though, that Wade would win a 3-peat with a less talented laker team while going up against vastly tougher competition?

    Also, to be clear, in a previous post you said that the lakers didn't need kobe because they played better without him. If that's not what you believe, then don't overstate your case to try to push a narrative. It's not an outlandish position to argue that during the first year of the run Kobe's play would hurt the team some times, but eventually he got it worked out and was an enormous part of that first title and it was never really an issue after that. This doesn't support the narrative you're trying to push, but at least it's grounded in actual reality (which makes most of your critique on kobe insignificant, because the issue was short lived and never interfered with the title run).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-08-2019 at 03:04 AM.

  7. #2392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I disagree that this is LBJ's best team (at least talent wise, depth you might be right) and that he's never had a decent 6th man. The 2013 heat had an excellent roster and Ray Allen was an excellent 6th man. Battier was also an excellent player off the bench. I also disagree that those laker teams were all that stacked. Outside of Shaq and Kobe, those teams didn't have that much talent. The third best player on those teams was probably rick fox. Those teams were shaq and Kobe and good, solid role players, but those role players weren't crazy talented. Ray Allen alone was better than every player on those laker teams not named shaq or Kobe.
    Battier averaged 4.8/6.6/4.1 points per game playing for the heat. He shot 38%/42%/34% during those seasons. If thatís what you think is a good sixth man, your crazy.

    Dwight, Rondo, Kuzma, Pope are all playing way better than Battier ever did as a Bron teamate. they are all scoring more at a much better %. Dwight is way more impactful defensively, Pope and Kuz are way more impactful offensively, and Rondo is way more impactful as he can get his own shot and create for others. Battier was a smart hard worker, but he sucked and didnít produce at all like the 4 BENCH players I just mentioned. The Lakers depth dwarfs anything Bron has ever played with. And as you well know depth is more important than having 3 great players and 10 scrubs. Thatís why Detroit blew you guys off the court when you had by far the two best players on the court.


    List of Laker players during the championship years who were better and outperformed Shane Battier. Oh an Rick easily out performed Shane and the numbers echo that sentiment.

    Glenn Rice
    Ron Harper
    Dereck Fisher
    Robert Horry
    Horace Grant
    Rick Fox
    JR Rider
    Brian Shaw
    Samaria Walker
    Devin George
    Lyndsey Hunter

    The fact that every single one of these guys averaged more points at a much higher fg% is very sad. Also Battier completely relied on a playmaker to get him his shot. He was a solid player in his prime, but his last 3 years were in Miami and he was not good...nobody with those numbers are. 5 points on 35% from the field is a horrible sixth man. Dude was ancient at this point of his career.
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 12-08-2019 at 03:21 AM.

  8. #2393
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Battier averaged 4.8/6.6/4.1 points per game playing for the heat. He shot 38%/42%/34% during those seasons. If thatís what you think is a good sixth man, your crazy.

    Dwight, Rondo, Kuzma, Pope are all playing way better than Battier ever did as a Bron teamate. they are all scoring more at a much better %. Dwight is way more impactful defensively, Pope and Kuz are way more impactful offensively, and Rondo is way more impactful as he can get his own shot and create for others. Battier was a smart hard worker, but he sucked and didnít produce at all like the 4 BENCH players I just mentioned. The Lakers depth dwarfs anything Bron has ever played with. And as you well know depth is more important than having 3 great players and 10 scrubs. Thatís why Detroit blew you guys off the court when you had by far the two best players on the court.
    Battier was an incredible defender. That's what his value was. Ray Allen was better than all of our bench players right now and everyone on the current team not named LBJ or AD. Those heat teams had a lot of depth as well. Mario Chalmers, Rashard Lewis, Chris Anderson, Haslim, Noris Cole. From top to bottom they had 11 very good to excellent rotation players (not saying that they were each excellent rotation players, but as a whole). We currently have a lot of depth as well, but so did that 2013 heat team.

  9. #2394
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    fun note.... lebron james this year is better than any kobe year ever... even kobe in 2005-06 year where lebron had a better PER over kobe that year and kobe finished 3rd lol... so lebron at the age of 1000 having a better season than kobe ever had ever yet kobe is still better right?

  10. #2395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    You mean the year kobe was in his 17th season and was the 2nd best player in the league? Yep, he was still amazing even though he was in his 17th year and was no longer in the triangle. He carried a team full of injured players with a horrible coach to the playoffs. Great season by Kobe. Thanks for reminding people of this feat.



    my god... explain


    he wasnt even top 5 holy ****... tell me how the hell was he better than KD/lebron... just curious.
    Last edited by More-Than-Most; 12-08-2019 at 03:30 AM.

  11. #2396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Battier was an incredible defender. That's what his value was. Ray Allen was better than all of our bench players right now and everyone on the current team not named LBJ or AD. Those heat teams had a lot of depth as well. Mario Chalmers, Rashard Lewis, Chris Anderson, Haslim, Noris Cole. From top to bottom they had 11 very good to excellent rotation players (not saying that they were each excellent rotation players, but as a whole). We currently have a lot of depth as well, but so did that 2013 heat team.

    Bro, Mario Chalmers was Trash. Haslem was trash and or hurt 90% of the time. Boris Cole was not as good as Chris Dunn, who is a backup on the worst team in basketball. Ray Allen was 50 years old for us. He wasnít even as influental as Horry was for the Lakers. He was a 6í5 Horry at best at this time. Chris Anderson was a third of what McGee is now. Wow. These guys were not solid man.

  12. #2397
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    Wait did Mami not win 2 titles? whats the issue here?

    Would Kobe and AI be the best of fit? BIG NO. so what if wade was 2nd or 12th best player.

    What great coach eric was? Was he even the coach? Did the experienced Pat step down to coach Lebron/wade/Bosh like he did for Shaq/wade?
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-08-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  13. #2398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Hahahahaha, you are precious dude. You just told an expert on statistics that they don't understand statistics hahahahaha...You also clearly don't understand the Dunning Kruger effect (you are throwing around psychology terms to a cognitive scientist lol)...this is one area where one of us is an actual professional and is in the big leagues and the other is you.

    I'll address the part of your post that isn't completely laughable. So you're basing kobe hurting the team on a DVD and a few comments from teammates during the first title run? Gotcha. As for Wade, he was widely acknowledged as the 3rd best player in the league going into 2011 and was only 29 years old...if he wasn't in his prime at that point, it begs the question of whether he ever had a prime lol. Anyone paying attention can see that Wade couldn't be Wade because of LBJ. At any rate, whether Wade was or wasn't in his prime, if he was more effective than Kobe (which you said he was; although anyone can see that's absurd), with LBJ and Bosh and a deep bench, he should have been able to help his team pull off the 3-peat (which shaq and kobe were able to do), especially since the heat had an easy path to the finals every year and didn't play particularly tough teams in the finals either. Clearly that didn't happen. Somehow though, that Wade would win a 3-peat with a less talented laker team while going up against vastly tougher competition?

    Also, to be clear, in a previous post you said that the lakers didn't need kobe because they played better without him. If that's not what you believe, then don't overstate your case to try to push a narrative. It's not an outlandish position to argue that during the first year of the run Kobe's play would hurt the team some times, but eventually he got it worked out and was an enormous part of that first title and it was never really an issue after that. This doesn't support the narrative you're trying to push, but at least it's grounded in actual reality (which makes most of your critique on kobe insignificant, because the issue was short lived and never interfered with the title run).
    OK expert break it down to how you arrive at Kobe. also include the effect of the coach. Pin point the great coach lebron had. Eric, Lue or Blatt.

    https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/vie...tistics_papers
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-08-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  14. #2399
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    "A storyline for the past two seasons, Wadeís knee is a year older with no viable back up to pick up the slack if things fall apart. Ray Allen is next in line, but heís a really good role player at this point.
    We have seen the impact of a diminished Wade at various points the past two seasons. While the Heat won the past two seasons, they were pushed to the brink of elimination twice, rescued only when Wade overcame the pain.

    Recent history shows the Heat can win with a limping Wade. Again, they are the two-time champs. But Wadeís knee is a sucker bet in Vegas. Works great when you hit it, but itís too risky long term."

    Health has always been key to 3peat. Another thing phil did was replaced role players for hungrier ones. GSW was going to 3peat had they not gotten injured. Not Kobe but its Curry 5 straight trips to finals.

    I already pin point Wade was banged up Wade. And just Like Kobe did wade would have benefited if he had a Shaq and Phil early on. Lebron made it look easy.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-08-2019 at 11:45 AM.

  15. #2400
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    Just like Lebron did not get prime healthy wade Davis is not getting prime Lebron. Big moves bring up Lewis, Allen, Shane etc as incredible but fail to bring up Payton, Malone, Horry, fox, Rice, Grant, Rodman, etc. So 35yr old Garry was trash but if 35yr old lebron is suppose to be a stud and if he dont win he suck and cant mesh with stars. This is the reason his circle of context is one sided and like a compass it points in one direction no matter how you spin it.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-08-2019 at 11:50 AM.

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