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  1. #2341
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    you're the one who said "all around great 5 position guy"
    Yep, that is what he said lol

  2. #2342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I think an argument can be made Williams was actually one of the most skilled passers in the history of the game, but his decision making was not great. Those are different things though. Note how with Kobe and LBJ, I give LBJ a big advantage on shot selection (and that's actually not trivial, because it is a massive part of the game). All of those facets go into breaking down a player's game so I do think that it is important to take them into account when assessing and comparing players.
    He was, but the fact he made so many bad passes doesn't make him better than magic or stockton, or nash, ect ect. You cant just negate part of his passes because they were bad and say hes better at passing than player X, just like you cant negate part of the shots Kobe took because they were bad shots.... I mean you can do whatever you want, but in my opinion that's negating a portion of bad stats for 1 player to help out an opinion.
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  3. #2343
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    He was, but the fact he made so many bad passes doesn't make him better than magic or stockton, or nash, ect ect. You cant just negate part of his passes because they were bad and say hes better at passing than player X, just like you cant negate part of the shots Kobe took because they were bad shots.... I mean you can do whatever you want, but in my opinion that's negating a portion of bad stats for 1 player to help out an opinion.
    I think in the Williams example, you could definitely say he was a better passer than some guys, but the bad passes keep him from being a better pg or floor general. In the Kobe/LBJ discussion, the bad shots keep Kobe from being more efficient. Free throws also goes into shooting though and the difference in their free throw percentages is far greater than the differences in their 3-pt percentage.

  4. #2344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, LBJ was an elite defender as well (but I think Kobe was better and better for a longer period); defense isn't one of the things that I think there was a large gap between them though. I disagree that their chase down block was not comparable. Kobe was actually the first player I remember doing that fairly consistent and used to do it quite often up until around 2010. I do think LBJ's chase down block is better though, but again it's something that Kobe was excellent at as well.

    I've argued this on a different forum, but I think LBJ is a great passer for a sf, however I think there have been numerous pg guards who were more skilled passers. LBJ is a an excellent playmaker for sure, but the difference in their assists isn't all that great, especially when one considers that LBJ has the ball a lot. I give the nod on these to LBJ, but I don't think the difference is particularly substantial, as Kobe was one of the best play making sg and passers in NBA history (he's just not as good as LBJ was on those facets). That was my point though, that most of the things that LBJ was better at, Kobe was also great at (just not as good as LBJ), but a lot of the the things that Kobe was better at, LBJ was not particularly very good with (e.g., posting up, play off the ball).
    Ok, so theres so many things Kobe was better than Lebron at, but Lebron was slightly better than Kobe but yet sometime next month Lebron is going to pass Kobe in all time points, while shooting a better percentage, in 100 less games, on roughly 2000 less shots, and at the same point he will have close to 3000 more assists with about 300 more turnovers.

    edit add: while having 300 more blocks, 2000 more rebounds, and he just passed Kobe in steals
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 12-06-2019 at 02:24 PM.
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  5. #2345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I think in the Williams example, you could definitely say he was a better passer than some guys, but the bad passes keep him from being a better pg or floor general. In the Kobe/LBJ discussion, the bad shots keep Kobe from being more efficient. Free throws also goes into shooting though and the difference in their free throw percentages is far greater than the differences in their 3-pt percentage.
    Sure, I concede as in theres no debate on Free Throws.

    Well obviously the bad shots is what keeps his percentage down and makes him less efficient, but I mean while I would definitely agree LeBron is the better shot selector, lets not act like every shot Lebron has ever taken has been a good shot. Can we negate all of Lebron's bad shots too?
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  6. #2346
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    Ok, so theres so many things Kobe was better than Lebron at, but Lebron was slightly better than Kobe but yet sometime next month Lebron is going to pass Kobe in all time points, while shooting a better percentage, in 100 less games, on roughly 2000 less shots, and at the same point he will have close to 3000 more assists with about 300 more turnovers.
    That ignores that Kobe didn't play starter minutes his first 2.5 seasons (it ends up being close to 180 games or so games) and the fact that Kobe's career as an elite player ended after the achilles injury (in which he played another 107 games). When those are factored in, it took LBJ a considerably greater number of games to reach that scoring milestone.

  7. #2347
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    Sure, I concede as in theres no debate on Free Throws.

    Well obviously the bad shots is what keeps his percentage down and makes him less efficient, but I mean while I would definitely agree LeBron is the better shot selector, lets not act like every shot Lebron has ever taken has been a good shot. Can we negate all of Lebron's bad shots too?
    The thing about this is that there is a reason those shots were so tough for Kobe (besides him being stubborn). The defense couldn't let him get a decent look or they had no chance. With LBJ, even though he can make them now, the defense isn't going to fret too much if he gets off a decent look because LBJ won't consistently beat a team with his shooting or his 3 pointers. Kobe on the other hand will. I've said this before, but the defense has to work a lot harder to hold Kobe to those shots and that percentage than they do with LBJ, because Kobe is a bigger threat. But in doing so, this opens things up for Kobe's teammates, whereas those same opportunities are not going to be there for LBJ (because the defense isn't all that concerned with him taking jumpers). In holding Kobe to those shots, the defense might win the battle, but the lose the war (because his teammates end up with better looks and opportunities as a result of the defense focusing so much on Kobe). This is why looking at a players efficiency isn't all that useful, at least in my view.

    I also want to note that the reason I brought this up in the first place is because we were talking about what the players do better. Kobe's skill as a shooter requires defenses to adjust and play a certain way. The defenses aren't giving Kobe the looks they give LBJ, because if they do he would've torched them.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-06-2019 at 02:29 PM.

  8. #2348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    That ignores that Kobe didn't play starter minutes his first 2.5 seasons (it ends up being close to 180 games or so games) and the fact that Kobe's career as an elite player ended after the achilles injury (in which he played another 107 games). When those are factored in, it took LBJ a considerably greater number of games to reach that scoring milestone.
    Should we need to wait and see how far ahead Lebron is in scoring when the shot attempts equal out?... He's still going to pass him in about 1000 less minutes played
    Last edited by MarkieMark48; 12-06-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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  9. #2349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    The thing about this is that there is a reason those shots were so tough for Kobe (besides him being stubborn). The defense couldn't let him get a decent look or they had no chance. With LBJ, even though he can make them now, the defense isn't going to fret too much if he gets off a decent look because LBJ won't consistently beat a team with his shooting or his 3 pointers. Kobe on the other hand will. I've said this before, but the defense has to work a lot harder to hold Kobe to those shots and that percentage than they do with LBJ, because Kobe is a bigger threat. But in doing so, this opens things up for Kobe's teammates, whereas those same opportunities are not going to be there for LBJ (because the defense isn't all that concerned with him taking jumpers). In holding Kobe to those shots, the defense might win the battle, but the lose the war (because his teammates end up with better looks and opportunities as a result of the defense focusing so much on Kobe). This is why looking at a players efficiency isn't all that useful, at least in my view.

    I also want to note that the reason I brought this up in the first place is because we were talking about what the players do better. Kobe's skill as a shooter requires defenses to adjust and play a certain way. The defenses aren't giving Kobe the looks they give LBJ, because if they do he would've torched them.
    I get that, but youre saying Kobe is miles ahead of LeBron at certain things but youre also saying the things Lebron is better at the difference isn't that great. I'm saying if that's the case, then the numbers shouldn't equal out in favor of Kobe.. not only do they not do that, they don't equal out in Lebrons favor.
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  10. #2350
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    Listen to Steven Jackson carefully. Again if you just want a shooting guard Kobe is your guy. Lebron is not a shooting guard. If you value Kobe mamba, the Mj it, his drive whatever you want to call it then Kobe is your man. Thatís going to be the guy you pick. However if you want that all around play all 5 position guy the I am sorry then thatís Lebron. When you crunch it he is your man. When you get in your circles of context then you may love kobe. We are not talking team success, rings or win here just better player.

    https://youtu.be/hQjmwp8jlQ0

    I said it many times they love Kobe demeanor his drive. I am going to get you. That could very well raise his potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, that is what he said lol
    Do you anywhere where i said he was great at all 5 positions or was great at center? Said he can play all 5 positions. He's a small forward. Look up the greatest sf of all time. then look up the greatest sg of all time then look up the greatest pg of all time, then pf then center. i am sure majority will come out

    Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-06-2019 at 03:14 PM.

  11. #2351
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkieMark48 View Post
    I get that, but youre saying Kobe is miles ahead of LeBron at certain things but youre also saying the things Lebron is better at the difference isn't that great. I'm saying if that's the case, then the numbers shouldn't equal out in favor of Kobe.. not only do they not do that, they don't equal out in Lebrons favor.
    Thats how big moves circle works. Its like a compass it point towards Kobe no matter which way you spin it.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-06-2019 at 03:34 PM.

  12. #2352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Listen to Steven Jackson carefully. Again if you just want a shooting guard Kobe is your guy. Lebron is not a shooting guard. If you value Kobe mamba, the Mj it, his drive whatever you want to call it then Kobe is your man. Thatís going to be the guy you pick. However if you want that all around play all 5 position guy the I am sorry then thatís Lebron. When you crunch it he is your man. When you get in your circles of context then you may love kobe. We are not talking team success, rings or win here just better player.

    https://youtu.be/hQjmwp8jlQ0

    I said it many times they love Kobe demeanor his drive. I am going to get you. That could very well raise his potential.



    Do you anywhere where i said he was great at all 5 positions or was great at center? Said he can play all 5 positions. He's a small forward. Look up the greatest sf of all time. then look up the greatest sg of all time then look up the greatest pg of all time, then pf then center. i am sure majority will come out

    Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem.
    Larry Bird say hi


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  13. #2353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    That would actually be interesting but that was with Wade on the way out of his prime. He was declining before Bron even got there but would drop off the superstar cliff within like 2.5 years (he was really injured when it mattered most).
    James was a monster in Miami. Kobe and Lebron playing next to each other would of been a perfect pairing.

    Wade did fall off in Miami and Lebron had to carry to big of a load towards the end. I know wade pushed James to be the best. Kobe and James would of pushed each other to be the best ever.
    Last edited by Bostonjorge; 12-06-2019 at 04:21 PM.

  14. #2354
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Larry Bird say hi


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    Look it up donít make a guess or one opinion crunch the numbers

  15. #2355
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Look it up donít make a guess or one opinion crunch the numbers
    The guy didn't learn to shoot a jump shot til his 30s. The Spurs used to leave him alone at like 18 feet in the finals. What do you think Larry Birds #s would have looked like if anyone defended him like that? How about MJ? You think he would have shot the ball every single play? I do. I think he would have scored 100 points easy
    Last edited by ewing; 12-06-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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