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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Shaq is just to big for Kareem to defend. Shaq has at least 100 pounds on him. Without the double team Kareem donít have a shot at stoping Shaq. Shaq was also a big time defender in his MVP, Championships and finals MVP season. Shaq has all the strength to keep Kareem out of the post and athletic enough to guard the sky hook.

    I know Kareem has the numbers and Russell has the championship. The tape is impressive but Shaqís and Dreamís taps shows me that they can dominate any style or era. Shaq and Dream can bend the era to big man basketball no matter the rules. Shaq and Dream are top 3 bigs on my list.
    Who is the other in your top 3?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    These aren't current players who grew up watching these players. These are players who played against both in their primes. There is a long list of those guys that is posted on this thread (e.g., wade, bosh, Grant Hill, Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Tony Allen, Iggy, Dirk). The lis is quite long, actually.

    And as I've said many times, stats do not lie or tell the truth. Stats are numbers and nothing more. The interpretations we draw from those numbers are what is in debate and what is highly questionable. In basketball, statistics are greatly misused and are worst than meaningless, because they lead to faulty conclusions (meaning they are worst than not having any statistics).
    But when every stat points to the same player, itís oretty conclusive at that point.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    But when every stat points to the same player, itís oretty conclusive at that point.
    Only if those stats provide meaningful information, which I've been arguing this entire time that most of them do not, particularly advanced analytics. At the end of the day we're left with their peers picking kobe, the advanced analytics pointing to LBJ and kobe having 2 more titles despite having a tougher road to the title. That should lead people to wonder whether the advanced analytics are measuring meaningful information. That is, the advanced analytics do not accord with what their peers think nor do they accord with who has won more titles...something doesn't quite add up and it's pretty clear that its the advanced analytics.

  4. #199
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    No stats are not just numbers however they dont tell the whole story.

    If Kobe and Lebron were both just shooting guards i would say kobe but lebron is more than a shooting guard.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Only if those stats provide meaningful information, which I've been arguing this entire time that most of them do not, particularly advanced analytics. At the end of the day we're left with their peers picking kobe, the advanced analytics pointing to LBJ and kobe having 2 more titles despite having a tougher road to the title. That should lead people to wonder whether the advanced analytics are measuring meaningful information. That is, the advanced analytics do not accord with what their peers think nor do they accord with who has won more titles...something doesn't quite add up and it's pretty clear that its the advanced analytics.
    I donít know. It seems like your choosing when to use stats depending on the point you are trying to make. Your saying Love and Bosh are better than Gasol, but then when the same stats say LeBron was better than Kobe you dismiss it. You have to keep the same set of guidelines across the board or else you are comparing apples to oranges. I honestly donít know how to debate with you if you donít keep the same standards across the board. There is a much bigger difference by the numbers between Kobe and Bron than there is between Bosh/Love/Gasol. Furthermore you just using basic counting stats. By your logic Jerry Stackhouse is as good as Dwayne Wade.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yep, bosh made double the all-star games Pau did, despite playing fewer years, put up slightly better numbers despite being the 3rd option and had far bigger production his best years than Pau.
    You have to be kidding. Bosh sucked as a #1, and was nowhere near the contributor Gasol was as a non 1st option.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Dude, most season the east literally had no playoff caliber teams besides whatever team LBJ was on. That is, if those teams played in the west, not a single one besides LBJ's team would make the playoffs. The 5 titles, which are frankly much larger than anything LBJ has in his favor, favor Kobe. Their peers, which also warps any of the misguided analytics, also favors Kobe. We won't ever know what would have happened had LBJ played out west, but it's quite feasible that he would have 0 titles. That also completely ignores that LBJ title hopped to get his titles (and so yeah, any objective fan isn't going to weight those the same as titles from players who didn't do that).
    You can type a million words, it doesn't make you even remotely right. Lebron is easily the better player. Like by a lot. His peers are MJ, KAJ, and Wilt. Kobe is a few tiers down. Every single piece of evidence backs that up, as does the eye test, or the massive opinion by players or ex players, and those around the game. Simply put, this is a laughable argument. Kobe vs Bird maybe works, but this doesn't.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    You can type a million words, it doesn't make you even remotely right. Lebron is easily the better player. Like by a lot. His peers are MJ, KAJ, and Wilt. Kobe is a few tiers down. Every single piece of evidence backs that up, as does the eye test, or the massive opinion by players or ex players, and those around the game. Simply put, this is a laughable argument. Kobe vs Bird maybe works, but this doesn't.
    Every single piece of evidence does not back it up. Kobe has 5 titles to LBJ's 3 (probably the most important peice of evidence). The advanced analytics back it up sure, but those are massively flawed and amount to being meaningless in basketball. You are wrong that the players back it up. I posted a long list of players who have gone on record picking kobe. Many of which where LBJ's teammates (e.g., Wade, Bosh, Kyrie), some of which were teammates with both Kobe and LBJ (e.g., Shaq, Jaminson), others were great players (e.g., MJ, Barkely, Kareem, Bird), others were contemporaries of both (e.g., Dirk, Mcgrady, MWP), and others were elite defenders who have guarded both (e.g., Kawhi, Iggy, tony allen). The consensus among ex-players and their contemporaries is actually kobe over LBJ (like it or not that's what it is and there is a massive list of these guys). The only piece of evidence to support LBJ is the advanced analytics, which do not amount to much. So yeah I'll go with the guy who their peers have picked and who who has won the more titles (that is evidence, like it or not).
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 01:59 AM.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    I donít know. It seems like your choosing when to use stats depending on the point you are trying to make. Your saying Love and Bosh are better than Gasol, but then when the same stats say LeBron was better than Kobe you dismiss it. You have to keep the same set of guidelines across the board or else you are comparing apples to oranges. I honestly donít know how to debate with you if you donít keep the same standards across the board. There is a much bigger difference by the numbers between Kobe and Bron than there is between Bosh/Love/Gasol. Furthermore you just using basic counting stats. By your logic Jerry Stackhouse is as good as Dwayne Wade.
    Notice though that I don't use advanced analytics when I use stats, because I do not believe they provide meaningful information. I was using basic stats to support that those guys are better than Pau. When I do use stats, I usually look at their basic stats during their prime years to get a gage of how productive they were and combine that with the eye test and how successful they were as far winning titles and being on contenders. In actuality, I do not think that Bosh was better than Pau (as I've already stated, but I do think Bosh put up better prime years as far as production than Pau). I do believe that Love and Kyrie were better than Pau. I was using basic stats to demonstrate that those guys have put up better numbers than Pau by a decent amount (especially during their best years). But as I've already said, even if we say Pau was better than all 3, he's still only one teammate, whereas LBJ had 2 of these guys on each of his championship teams, whereas Kobe basically just had Pau and before that only Shaq. LBJ still on the whole had far more talented teammates. Let's say that Pau was better than Bosh, he wasn't better than Bosh and Wade together. Similarly, let's say Pau was better than Love, he certainly wasn't better than both Love and Kyrie combined.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 02:08 AM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    No stats are not just numbers however they dont tell the whole story.

    If Kobe and Lebron were both just shooting guards i would say kobe but lebron is more than a shooting guard.
    No, this is not opinion...stats are absolutely just numbers. This doesn't just apply to basketball or sports. This applies to any domain that you ever get statistics from. Statistics are just numbers. We use those numbers to try to draw inferences about some construct. It is always an imperfect measurement, even in the physical sciences, but especially for things like sports where we take some measure and try to say that it measures some underlying construct. Whenever you come across statistics, you should always think about whether it measures what it purports to be measuring. If I give you an I.Q. test, for example, how you score on the test will provide some statistic, which is usually derived via some specific formula. That number is intended to measure your intelligence, but that does not mean that it does. It is simply a number and whether it measures what it is intended to measure is a matter up for debate (and our measures rarely do a great job of measuring what we want them to). It's the same with analytics (especially advanced analytics) in basketball. They are just numbers, but that does not mean that they represent what they claim to measure.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-19-2019 at 02:11 AM.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    You have to be kidding. Bosh sucked as a #1, and was nowhere near the contributor Gasol was as a non 1st option.
    Based on their statistical output, Bosh was better, especially when looking at their best years. I think Pau was better, but that isn't captured by their statistical outputs.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Based on their statistical output, Bosh was better, especially when looking at their best years. I think Pau was better, but that isn't captured by their statistical outputs.
    Pau was the better Center and Lebron is the better over all player. Kobe was the better shooting Guard and Bosh was the better Power forward.
    Last edited by ldawg; 10-19-2019 at 08:00 AM.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, this is not opinion...stats are absolutely just numbers. This doesn't just apply to basketball or sports. This applies to any domain that you ever get statistics from. Statistics are just numbers. We use those numbers to try to draw inferences about some construct. It is always an imperfect measurement, even in the physical sciences, but especially for things like sports where we take some measure and try to say that it measures some underlying construct. Whenever you come across statistics, you should always think about whether it measures what it purports to be measuring. If I give you an I.Q. test, for example, how you score on the test will provide some statistic, which is usually derived via some specific formula. That number is intended to measure your intelligence, but that does not mean that it does. It is simply a number and whether it measures what it is intended to measure is a matter up for debate (and our measures rarely do a great job of measuring what we want them to). It's the same with analytics (especially advanced analytics) in basketball. They are just numbers, but that does not mean that they represent what they claim to measure.
    why is anyone even trying to debate with this? he loves kobe... he gives no ****s about stats... just move on... he has his bias even though he has literally nothing but rings in his corner all while 3 of those rings were with shaq who carried.

    Lebron was always the best player on a championship team... was kobe?

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    why is anyone even trying to debate with this? he loves kobe... he gives no ****s about stats... just move on... he has his bias even though he has literally nothing but rings in his corner all while 3 of those rings were with shaq who carried.

    Lebron was always the best player on a championship team... was kobe?
    yea, it's really 3 titles for Lebron as the best player on his team, vs 2 for Kobe. Tim Duncan has 4 as the best player on the team (possibly all 5)

    top 3 players since Jordan retired in 1998 are. Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and LeBron James

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by hidalgo View Post
    yea, it's really 3 titles for Lebron as the best player on his team, vs 2 for Kobe. Tim Duncan has 4 as the best player on the team (possibly all 5)

    top 3 players since Jordan retired in 1998 are. Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and LeBron James
    Donít go spreading truth around here


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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

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