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  1. #5896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Being the #1 matters, sure, but it also matters if you happen to have another #1 on your team. Shaq did in Kobe, MJ didn't in Pippen and that's why Kobe and Pippen's titles don't carry the same weight.

    What you've shown is that you don't understand these metrics that you keep using. You can't explain them. This is why you resorted to calling me a troll once I asked you to. I didn't insult you. I simply asked you to explain. I wanted to see if you actually had any merit behind your position in terms of at least understanding what you were arguing about and you don't. I mean, one of us is considered an expert by other experts and has a say on this kind of stuff and the other one is you so again you can continue to say that I don't understand these metrics, but it amounts to a child trying to insult an adult. Had you been able to explain this, I would've proceeded to break down just how flawed this metric is at a specific, technical level, but you can't so I won't.

    I also didn't make it about your team, I highlighted how ironic it was that you seemed to diminish titles given that you root for a team that has never won one. It is ironic. I don't see why that's something to be upset about, I guess it's a sore spot (i.e., you're being a weenie).
    We have been through this plenty, I don't think Kobe magically went from Pippen level in 00 to peak top 10 great in one year. Him being more capable of being a #1 option and having a little better impact than Pippen in 2/3 years is fine but that doesn't change the overall context. Shaq was still the far and away best player in the league and dominating attention from the other team, people argue rule changes happened due to Shaq's dominance and teams needing to adjust. I dunno how this could be explained more or in other ways but Shaq was the floor warper and to pretty extreme levels like few greats before.

    I absolutely can and have explained everything throughout until right now. You are just playing this game because I am done wasting time explaining the most basic aspects of statistics and the overall ortg formula is complicated much more than just the bias aspect I mentioned earlier which took forever. I am bored, not insane enough to try going in depth on something like that given our conversation so far. If I thought you were genuine in any way here I might but I have seen enough to get you don't understand how to apply context/use stats/care about anything but the Kobe fan narrative.

    Haha ya you like pointing out how bad my team is and then calling me weenie. You just did it again lol. You specifically just inserted our teams haven't won so we must not care as if that is meaningful and not supposed to be a jab at our teams (if you even knew history FYI Blazers won in 77 so again this wasn't even a thought out jab, they do know what one is). I have been breaking down things throughout but if we wanna play that game like I said it is clear you are just a laker fanboy homer who like to troll because he is mad everyone other than other fanboys has Lebron over Kobe.

  2. #5897
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    We have been through this plenty, I don't think Kobe magically went from Pippen level in 00 to peak top 10 great in one year. Him being more capable of being a #1 option and having a little better impact than Pippen in 2/3 years is fine but that doesn't change the overall context. Shaq was still the far and away best player in the league and dominating attention from the other team, people argue rule changes happened due to Shaq's dominance and teams needing to adjust. I dunno how this could be explained more or in other ways but Shaq was the floor warper and to pretty extreme levels like few greats before.

    I absolutely can and have explained everything throughout until right now. You are just playing this game because I am done wasting time explaining the most basic aspects of statistics and the overall ortg formula is complicated much more than just the bias aspect I mentioned earlier which took forever. I am bored, not insane enough to try going in depth on something like that given our conversation so far. If I thought you were genuine in any way here I might but I have seen enough to get you don't understand how to apply context/use stats/care about anything but the Kobe fan narrative.

    Haha ya you like pointing out how bad my team is and then calling me weenie. You just did it again lol. You specifically just inserted our teams haven't won so we must not care as if that is meaningful and not supposed to be a jab at our teams (if you even knew history FYI Blazers won in 77 so again this wasn't even a thought out jab, they do know what one is). I have been breaking down things throughout but if we wanna play that game like I said it is clear you are just a laker fanboy homer who like to troll because he is mad everyone other than other fanboys has Lebron over Kobe.
    Nope, because Kobe and Pippen's numbers weren't comparable in 01 and 02 and yes, a player can go from being at a Pippen level to an all-time great level in one year. It happened with Kobe actually. It's not as if I'm the only one saying that Pippen wasn't this crazy amazing player (various others have compared him to a Klay Thompson kind of player, which is more or less apt in my estimation). 01 Kobe and beyond was far, far greater than that and the basic numbers show it, which are useful for at the very least distinguishing just how far above Kobe was than Pippen.

    And no, you have not explained what I asked you to explain. I asked you to explain what that metric is and why it's capturing what it purports to be capturing. I don't think you actually, know because to know you would have likely had to have read a decent amount on it and have the training to understand that and then have some kind of meaningful insight on it and it's clear that this isn't the case. And again, it's not a slight to say a team who has never won has actually never won. Look, I'll show you, "the lakers haven't won a title in over a decade". See that's factual, nothing insulting about that. Also, a team winning over 40 years ago doesn't really make them that much more of a winning franchise. It actually wasn't even intended to be an insult, you just took it that way for some reason.

    And just so you know, it's not just me or laker fans who have Kobe above LBJ, there's a long list of their peers and mutual teammates who also have Kobe ahead (and that list has been posted on here multiple times and includes elite defenders who guarded both; along with Wade and Bosh). It's mostly the media outlets that rank LBJ ahead, whereas the players tend to pick Kobe. You're an LBJ fan though and dislike Kobe so you like to ignore that type of context.

  3. #5898
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    Shaq was never 'far and away the best player in the league' because his prime coincided with late career MJ and early and prime Duncan.

    Playoffs 99-07 Duncan: 24/12.8/3.7 2.8 blocks on 50.6% and 4 rings
    Playoffs 99-07 Shaq: 25/12.6/2.6 2.3 blocks on 56% and 4 rings

    Duncan won 3 Finals MVPs and 2 league MVPs during Shaq's post-MJ run with the Lakers and Kobe. Shaq was probably better in 2000 and 2001 but it wasn't by a lot, certainly not 'far and away.'

  4. #5899
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Shaq was never 'far and away the best player in the league' because his prime coincided with late career MJ and early and prime Duncan.

    Playoffs 99-07 Duncan: 24/12.8/3.7 2.8 blocks on 50.6% and 4 rings
    Playoffs 99-07 Shaq: 25/12.6/2.6 2.3 blocks on 56% and 4 rings

    Duncan won 3 Finals MVPs and 2 league MVPs during Shaq's post-MJ run with the Lakers and Kobe. Shaq was probably better in 2000 and 2001 but it wasn't by a lot, certainly not 'far and away.'
    Shaq was the best player imo 00-02 (so I only have one more year) but all time Duncan is higher and to me and he was the best in the following few years 03-07ish. I agree that those two dominated the league through around 07 though that fits pretty close to what I have been saying (then it becomes more of a toss up I would say).

  5. #5900
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    Last edited by ldawg; 05-30-2020 at 07:49 PM.

  6. #5901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Nope, because Kobe and Pippen's numbers weren't comparable in 01 and 02 and yes, a player can go from being at a Pippen level to an all-time great level in one year. It happened with Kobe actually. It's not as if I'm the only one saying that Pippen wasn't this crazy amazing player (various others have compared him to a Klay Thompson kind of player, which is more or less apt in my estimation). 01 Kobe and beyond was far, far greater than that and the basic numbers show it, which are useful for at the very least distinguishing just how far above Kobe was than Pippen.

    And no, you have not explained what I asked you to explain. I asked you to explain what that metric is and why it's capturing what it purports to be capturing. I don't think you actually, know because to know you would have likely had to have read a decent amount on it and have the training to understand that and then have some kind of meaningful insight on it and it's clear that this isn't the case. And again, it's not a slight to say a team who has never won has actually never won. Look, I'll show you, "the lakers haven't won a title in over a decade". See that's factual, nothing insulting about that. Also, a team winning over 40 years ago doesn't really make them that much more of a winning franchise. It actually wasn't even intended to be an insult, you just took it that way for some reason.

    And just so you know, it's not just me or laker fans who have Kobe above LBJ, there's a long list of their peers and mutual teammates who also have Kobe ahead (and that list has been posted on here multiple times and includes elite defenders who guarded both; along with Wade and Bosh). It's mostly the media outlets that rank LBJ ahead, whereas the players tend to pick Kobe. You're an LBJ fan though and dislike Kobe so you like to ignore that type of context.
    Lol again you wanna use certain hunters when convenient. It's been covered, Kobe actually was the #2 and in a similar role pippen just impact the game in different ways while Kobe is better scorer of course. Kobe still wasn't the #1 and you will never accept it so why bother but most know who was best.

    I know, it's 80% not everyone you are right. Either way you are just a clear fanboy angry most have him higher at this point and using any argument you can think of no matter how hypocritical/inconsistent.


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  7. #5902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Blaming kobe for the dysfunction is silly and a little hypocritical. As the leader, you want to argue that shaq deserves the credit for the 3-peat more so than Kobe, okay fine. But as the leader, you also must take responsibility when the team falls apart. As someone who loved both shaq and Kobe, this falls on both of them, but Shaq has to be bear more of the blame. He had been taking shots at Kobe for many years and then unprovoked released a scathing commentary when Kobe said he was going to become a free agent at the end of the 04 season (if I'm remembering correctly, shaq basically said something to tone of "we don't need you, we can win without you, I won these titles on my own"). Not only did shaq do a horrible job of leading, he created and stoked a lot of the fire that led to the break up.

    It's also 100% false that Kobe was inefficient once he became the main guy in LA. In both 03 and 04 he ranked in the top 2-6 in the league or so in the typical metrics that are used to rate efficiency and offensive production. Was he as efficient as Shaq? No, but he absolutely was efficient and highly productive offensively and it was actually at an elite level. So yeah, his level of play was nowhere near what a typical #2 is (not even what a great #2 does). He was playing at an elite level for a great #1 guy. He was 1b to shaq's 1a. Number 2 options, true number 2 options, don't come close to putting up those numbers. If a player does what Kobe did during that time, they're likely elite superstars who just happen to be on a team with someone who is better than them, but are not a true #2 option.
    I know it won't fly in this forum but me personally don't think that Kobe gets the credit he deserves for the team going to 4 Finals in 5 seasons. Yes he did have his issues with Shaq but IMO it was more from Magic-itis then anything. You remember Magic couldn't coach because he just couldn't put up with players not as committed as he was as a player.

    Shaq was a physical beast on the court but off it not so much. He didn't put in the work to be the best, he got very comfortable and stopped taking practices seriously.

    I'm a firm believer in that a teams attitude reflects its leadership. IMO if Kobe didn't take that leadership role in the locker room and just let the team follow Shaq it would've fallen apart sooner.
    Last edited by McAllen Tx; 05-30-2020 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #5903
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    I know it won't fly in this forum but me personally don't think that Kobe gets the credit he deserves for the team going to 4 Finals in 5 seasons. Yes he did have his issues with Shaq but IMO it was more from Magic-itis then anything. You remember Magic couldn't coach because he just couldn't put up with players not as committed as he was as a player.

    Shaq was a physical beast on the court but off it not so much. He didn't put in the work to be the best, he got very comfortable and stopped taking practices seriously.

    I'm a firm believer in that a teams attitude reflects its leadership. IMO if Kobe didn't take that leadership role in the locker room and just let the team follow Shaq it would've fallen apart sooner.
    Was it odd with Deanglo Russell and Swaggy? well Kobe Shaq had a similar situation, Phill had coaching issues with Kobe, Karl malone and Kobe fell out over Vanessa. The locker room got toxic. I was not there but it was documented Kobe was not a people person. I would think the teammates would have like the funny Shaq more and i would think that did not sit well with Kobe. I think he wanted a team of his own. Thing is after that he had to change his style to get along with others and learn to be a leader. Magic never coached Shaq/Kobe
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-30-2020 at 08:49 PM.

  9. #5904
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Was it odd with Deanglo Russell and Swaggy? well Kobe Shaq had a similar situation, Phill had coaching issues with Kobe, Karl malone and Kobe fell out over Vanessa. The locker room got toxic. I was not there but it was documented Kobe was not a people person. I would think the teammates would have like the funny Shaq more and i would think that did not sit well with Kobe. I think he wanted a team of his own. Thing is after that he had to change his style to get along with others and learn to be a leader. Magic never coached Shaq/Kobe
    Im not talking about being BFFs. Im talking about in practice, getting ready for games. Getting ready for playoffs series.

  10. #5905
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Im not talking about being BFFs. Im talking about in practice, getting ready for games. Getting ready for playoffs series.
    Thats the thing Phill Jackson run practice not Shaq not Kobe. Kobe put in extra work on his own. I could be wrong but i dont think Kobe was leading the vets the first go around
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-30-2020 at 09:19 PM.

  11. #5906
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Lol again you wanna use certain hunters when convenient. It's been covered, Kobe actually was the #2 and in a similar role pippen just impact the game in different ways while Kobe is better scorer of course. Kobe still wasn't the #1 and you will never accept it so why bother but most know who was best.

    I know, it's 80% not everyone you are right. Either way you are just a clear fanboy angry most have him higher at this point and using any argument you can think of no matter how hypocritical/inconsistent.


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    I never disputed that Kobe wasn't #2 behind shaq. I do dispute that him and Pippen impacted the game to a similar extent. Kobe also did lead the lakers to the WCF and to the finals as the #1 option, whereas Pippen never made it out of the 2nd round as the main guy and also completely quit on his team in the middle of that. You are doing a lot of what you accusing me of doing and using context when it favors your argument. Saying that Kobe's efficiency dropped once he was the go-to guy but ignoring that it occurred when shaq was grossly out of shape and how defenses would often ignore shaq in the 4th, even when he was the #1, forcing the offense to be run through Kobe; also ignoring that Kobe continually had the other team's best defensive players on him whereas Pippen never really did. There are multiple posters on this thread alone who disagree with your characterization of Kobe during that 3-peat. That sort of thing flies in here, but it would be mocked in more objective circles.

    Also, way to sidestep how the majority of their peers and even teammates pick Kobe. It's just their opinion so not definitive, but clearly doesn't fit with your narrative of saying almost everyone picks Kobe.

  12. #5907
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    I know it won't fly in this forum but me personally don't think that Kobe gets the credit he deserves for the team going to 4 Finals in 5 seasons. Yes he did have his issues with Shaq but IMO it was more from Magic-itis then anything. You remember Magic couldn't coach because he just couldn't put up with players not as committed as he was as a player.

    Shaq was a physical beast on the court but off it not so much. He didn't put in the work to be the best, he got very comfortable and stopped taking practices seriously.

    I'm a firm believer in that a teams attitude reflects its leadership. IMO if Kobe didn't take that leadership role in the locker room and just let the team follow Shaq it would've fallen apart sooner.
    Yep, 100% agree with this. The narrative from the start of this thread has been pretty clear and anyone who isn't on board with it is ridiculed and dismissed as a hater. Players who don't pick LBJ are haters, posters who don't pick LBJ are troll and fanboys. It seems the only way to avoid those labels on here is by picking LBJ lol

  13. #5908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I never disputed that Kobe wasn't #2 behind shaq. I do dispute that him and Pippen impacted the game to a similar extent. Kobe also did lead the lakers to the WCF and to the finals as the #1 option, whereas Pippen never made it out of the 2nd round as the main guy and also completely quit on his team in the middle of that. You are doing a lot of what you accusing me of doing and using context when it favors your argument. Saying that Kobe's efficiency dropped once he was the go-to guy but ignoring that it occurred when shaq was grossly out of shape and how defenses would often ignore shaq in the 4th, even when he was the #1, forcing the offense to be run through Kobe; also ignoring that Kobe continually had the other team's best defensive players on him whereas Pippen never really did. There are multiple posters on this thread alone who disagree with your characterization of Kobe during that 3-peat. That sort of thing flies in here, but it would be mocked in more objective circles.

    Also, way to sidestep how the majority of their peers and even teammates pick Kobe. It's just their opinion so not definitive, but clearly doesn't fit with your narrative of saying almost everyone picks Kobe.
    Sure he did with Shaq still next to him easing the load lol. MJ wasn't even there though so it isn't like Pippen choked while having help in the same way. You can't just ignore the most basic of context but you always do to push a narrative. Kobe as the man with a great Shaq next to him made it to West semis in 03 similar to Pippen WITHOUT MJ, congrats but that ain't really saying much.

    Lebron when his career is done will be largely a top 3 player and Kobe is lower end of top 10. You can start a poll in the main forum if you want but Valade has already done that with some of your takes and people just kinda laugh.
    Last edited by mngopher35; 05-30-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  14. #5909
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Sure he did with Shaq still next to him easing the load lol. MJ wasn't even there though so it isn't like Pippen choked while having help in the same way. You can't just ignore the most basic of context but you always do to push a narrative. Kobe as the man with a great Shaq next to him made it to West semis in 03 similar to Pippen WITHOUT MJ, congrats but that ain't really saying much.

    Lebron when his career is done will be largely a top 3 player and Kobe is lower end of top 10. You can start a poll in the main forum if you want but Valade has already done that with some of your takes and people just kinda laugh.
    Also ignoring that Kobe made it to the finals the following year; also ignoring that the offense was almost entirely run through Kobe in the 4th during the entire run (this never occurred with Pippen).

    And it's funny how you dismissed the yahoo poll which showed something that you didn't like and you said it was biased and completely useless, yet now you want to conduct a poll in the main forum, which is considered a laughing stock and entirely biased towards LBJ in most other forums? Yeah, I'll trust the yahoo poll a million times more than I would a poll out of the main forum, thank you very much. In the main forum, you guys also either pick LBJ over MJ or think it's close. Why don't you go look at a poll that was recently conducted by ESPN on the topic. It was something like 65-70% of respondent picked MJ over LBJ on basically every single question lol...so that goes to show you just how skewed a lot of perceptions on here are when compared to the rest of the public.

  15. #5910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Also ignoring that Kobe made it to the finals the following year; also ignoring that the offense was almost entirely run through Kobe in the 4th during the entire run (this never occurred with Pippen).

    And it's funny how you dismissed the yahoo poll which showed something that you didn't like and you said it was biased and completely useless, yet now you want to conduct a poll in the main forum, which is considered a laughing stock and entirely biased towards LBJ in most other forums? Yeah, I'll trust the yahoo poll a million times more than I would a poll out of the main forum, thank you very much. In the main forum, you guys also either pick LBJ over MJ or think it's close. Why don't you go look at a poll that was recently conducted by ESPN on the topic. It was something like 65-70% of respondent picked MJ over LBJ on basically every single question lol...so that goes to show you just how skewed a lot of perceptions on here are when compared to the rest of the public.
    I am not ignoring the following year, 2 years after winning a title he went into the finals as the man (first time leading a team further than Pippen as the man) and shot 38% for the series with 22ppg. I think that only furthers my idea he simply wasn't as good as you keep claiming for those initial 3 titles given this is what we got from Kobe as the #1 with a guy like Shaq. I will talk about that finals all you want but my guess is it won't help your point given that choke job.

    I see you still don't understand bias, this is what I meant about it being pointless breaking down the obvious to you. Yes that poll on the article designed for a specific fanboy/homer audience is different than a main forum for all. You simply see anything against your narrative as biased, you earlier mentioned the laker forum compared to the main lol. Like obviously we know where the homers are in their own forum while the main is for everyone. I agree MJ is better than Lebron. Lebron is better than Kobe too.

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