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  1. #4921
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    https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/24...be-bryant-2nd/

    Vince Carter has Kobe a close #2 all time

  2. #4922
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Never once moved the goal posts. You just tried to take one of 6 measures of an Alpha to declare that makes someone an Alpha, as opposed to the guy who displayed the other 5 measures.

    I wasn't even the one who brought up Alpha's, I believe you were (or someone else was).
    Please quote me where I did that. Also, it wasn't me who 1st brought up alpha, I've just been going off what other posters have been saying

  3. #4923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Again you canít compare a prime player to a 20 year old player.

    Remember when James got swept in the finals against the Spurs? Less then a year later, Spurs took a bigger beating against the Lakers. Kobe also did it playing the exact way you describe. Refusing to use his teammates while being guarded by the #4 defensive MVP Bowen and Duncan All NBA first team. #1 defense in the league. Cleveland lost by 24 points total(all games)in the finals. Lakers destroyed Spurs by 30 in a single game.

    Only a GOAT can play exclusively against a defending championship teamís strengths while playing a losing style of Basketball (ISO) and completely out class that team.

    These kind of GOAT moments only come once in a Basketball era.
    Yeah, the Cavs sucked hard. Worst supporting cast Iíve ever seen in a finals by far.

  4. #4924
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    Why did he do that in the Finals, but not in previous series?
    Admit you were wrong first before we move onto a different topic. Iím not gonna play ring around the topics until you can get a win.

    Admit and accept your L first and then and only then can you grow and we can move to a different topic. Otherwise your just gonna be a whiny brat that just keeps asking ďbut whyĒ over and over again. He deferred, admit you are wrong and Iíll be happy to discuss further.

  5. #4925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Again you canít compare a prime player to a 20 year old player.

    Remember when James got swept in the finals against the Spurs? Less then a year later, Spurs took a bigger beating against the Lakers. Kobe also did it playing the exact way you describe. Refusing to use his teammates while being guarded by the #4 defensive MVP Bowen and Duncan All NBA first team. #1 defense in the league. Cleveland lost by 24 points total(all games)in the finals. Lakers destroyed Spurs by 30 in a single game.

    Only a GOAT can play exclusively against a defending championship teamís strengths while playing a losing style of Basketball (ISO) and completely out class that team.

    These kind of GOAT moments only come once in a Basketball era.
    Iím not, Iím comparing Prime Kobe to Prime Jordan to Prime Shaq. Kobe never in his history showed he could be as efficient as Prime Mike or Prime MJ. And Kobe was most efficient with Shaq anyway. When he had the greatest player magnet in history he couldnít produce that kind of efficiency and when he was in his prime he couldnít without him. Kobe is a beast OK, just remember I think he was a great player and I give him props for being the man and closing the show during the olympics over Bron or anyone else. Heís a beast and I love his heart. Heís got more heart than anyone when it comes to leaving it all out on the court. His competitiveness is second to none. There is more to basketball than just those things. This is no disrespect to Kobe. Iím a stats guy and an eye test guy. I use them both equally. I realize Kobe has as much offensive skill as anyone. He might be the most skilled player in history. If we are talking the most skilled basketball player ever, heís arguably #1

  6. #4926
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Admit you were wrong first before we move onto a different topic. Iím not gonna play ring around the topics until you can get a win.

    Admit and accept your L first and then and only then can you grow and we can move to a different topic. Otherwise your just gonna be a whiny brat that just keeps asking ďbut whyĒ over and over again. He deferred, admit you are wrong and Iíll be happy to discuss further.
    Admit what?
    That my argument was correct to begin with but you were.too thick to realize that you pretty much ceded to it? And now you pretend that I didn't have it to begin with?

    Lebron choked in the Finals, he shrunk. That's the argument. You agree, so we move on.

    Now you want to say that he didn't choke but he....deferred. Please elaborate.

  7. #4927
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    Lebron did not choke. He did not chuck. Hes not the type to continue shooting when his shot not falling. I will say he differed too much. Should have told Wade to move over that first year.
    Last edited by ldawg; 05-25-2020 at 12:25 AM.

  8. #4928
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lebron did not choke. He did not chuck. Hes not the type to continue shooting when his shot not falling.
    Uhhh no LeBron did choke in 2011. he froze and refused to play. People who blame Dallas zone defense are making excuses. LeBron had played against zone defense. When you allow Jason Terry to have a greater impact than you in a series and you are LeBron James, there is no excuse. And it is funny that people will say LeBron deferred to Wade. Did her defer in the regular season? vs Boston? Bulls? Nope. So he decided he wanted to defer to wade in the Finals? Yeah, not buying it. LeBron 100% choked.

  9. #4929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Kobe would not have won those first three without Shaq (a top ten all timer) and Kobe would not have beaten the KD era Warriors teams or the pre-KD Warrior team with Matthew Delladova as his Robin.

    Maybe Kobe wouldnít have lost to the Mavs that year (although he did) if he replaced Lebron on the Heat and maybe he wouldíve beaten the Spurs, too. But no team Kobe ever faced was on that KD Warrior level and no team he was ever on was as deficient as the Kyrie/Love-less team.

    How many Finals did Kobe make without Shaq or Pau Gasol?
    Lol that is pure conjecture on your part and I certainly don't agree with that. I would pick the Shaq-kobe lakers over any version of the warriors in 5-6 semi uncompetitive games. I would also take the 01 blazers, the 02 kings, most of the spurs teams kobe faced, along with the 04 pistons, and the 10 Celtics over those warriors teams. The warriors struggled against a good OKC team that didn't know how to play and that basically choked. Pure conjecture though since we'll never see those matchups.

    Also, not sure why how many finals kobe made without Pau or Shaq is relevant here? Sure LBJ made 1 finals without a star next to him, but he also happened to play in the east, which was horrible. If we're being honest, that Cavs team would've been lucky to make it out of the first round in the west and wouldve probably not put up much of a fight against whoever they were paired with. Those finals were basically like a 1st round playoff series where the 1 plays the 8.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-25-2020 at 12:47 AM.

  10. #4930
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But it still sounds like you're saying because LeBron wasn't lucky enough to have a stacked team to start with I'm going to demand he wins more titles than someone who was lucky enough to have a stacked team to start with.

    If LeBron was drafted to the Heat with Wade and Bosh and won the same amount of titles in the same amount of time, would he change in your draft positioning?
    It would depend on whether they played together during their prime years or not and whether or not LBJ went on to team up with stars of his choosing for a decade during his prime. I'm not holding it against LBJ for playing with the guys he chose to play with, but it just raises the stakes in terms of what is expected of him.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 05-25-2020 at 12:48 AM.

  11. #4931
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Lebron did not choke. He did not chuck. Hes not the type to continue shooting when his shot not falling. I will say he differed too much. Should have told Wade to move over that first year.
    You know you're biased when LBJ fans are on here saying LBJ choked in the finals but you're on here saying otherwise lol

  12. #4932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Lol that is pure conjecture on your part and I certainly don't agree with that. I would pick the Shaq-kobe lakers over any version of the warriors in 5-6 semi uncompetitive games. I would also take the 01 blazers, the 02 kings, most of the spurs teams kobe faced, along with the 04 pistons, and the 10 Celtics over those warriors teams. The warriors struggled against a good OKC team that didn't know how to play and that basically choked. Pure conjecture though since we'll never see those matchups.

    Also, not sure why how many finals kobe made without Pau or Shaq is relevant here? Sure LBJ made 1 finals without a star next to him, but he also happened to play in the east, which was horrible. If we're being honest, that Cavs team would've been lucky to make it out of the first round in the west and wouldve probably not put up much of a fight against whoever they were paired with. Those finals were basically like a 1st round playoff series where the 1 plays the 8.
    When you say any version of the Warriors, you mean the ones with Durant?

  13. #4933
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    When you say any version of the Warriors, you mean the ones with Durant?
    Pre-KD. I do think those laker teams would still beat the KD warriors (along with some of those other teams I mentioned), but I think those would be much more competitive series. The main reason I pick the lakers and those other teams over the KD warriors is because I think those warrior teams were susceptible to teams that could execute at a high level in the half court with dominant bigs who could score inside. We'll never know though because we never really saw them play that kind of team, which is unfortunate because I do think that kind of series wouldve been great to watch.

  14. #4934
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    Pre-KD Warriors were still 73-9 and made two straight NBA Finals trips. It required arguably the greatest NBA comeback in NBA history to beat them. Acting like they were just some random team is laughable. That Warriors team that season looked unbeatable. Yes, they had their playoffs blunders and Curry underperformed. But quit discrediting them. Beating Durant and almost beating LeBron is like Isiah beating Bird and Magic. The disrespect that Warriors team gets yet NBA teams are beginning to follow their recipe for success is just ridiculous.

    As for the Lakers with Shaq+Kobe, are we talking about fat Shaq who quit on defense? Yes, he was a monster offensively but Curry, Klay, and Durant would have forced Shaq to run all day. Shaq at that point was lazy on defense and gave up many plays. Unstoppable on offense, yes. Defensively, the Warriors can expose Shaq in a way that the early 00 teams couldn't. Then we talk about the rules. Shaq would be fouled out if we are playing by today's rules where Shaq would deliberately foul players because he couldn't defend them but wanted to prevent them from continuously attacking the paint. It would be a tough battle but I'd give the Warriors the edge based on the fact that they could play into Shaq's weakness better than Shaq could vs the Warriors smaller lineup

  15. #4935
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanSpray View Post
    Pre-KD Warriors were still 73-9 and made two straight NBA Finals trips. It required arguably the greatest NBA comeback in NBA history to beat them. Acting like they were just some random team is laughable. That Warriors team that season looked unbeatable. Yes, they had their playoffs blunders and Curry underperformed. But quit discrediting them. Beating Durant and almost beating LeBron is like Isiah beating Bird and Magic. The disrespect that Warriors team gets yet NBA teams are beginning to follow their recipe for success is just ridiculous.

    As for the Lakers with Shaq+Kobe, are we talking about fat Shaq who quit on defense? Yes, he was a monster offensively but Curry, Klay, and Durant would have forced Shaq to run all day. Shaq at that point was lazy on defense and gave up many plays. Unstoppable on offense, yes. Defensively, the Warriors can expose Shaq in a way that the early 00 teams couldn't. Then we talk about the rules. Shaq would be fouled out if we are playing by today's rules where Shaq would deliberately foul players because he couldn't defend them but wanted to prevent them from continuously attacking the paint. It would be a tough battle but I'd give the Warriors the edge based on the fact that they could play into Shaq's weakness better than Shaq could vs the Warriors smaller lineup
    So the rest of the Laker players would just allow them to get into the paint all night with no resistance? Whoís guarding Shaq? Whoís guarding Kobe?

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