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  1. #4906
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    I guess you are just a blow hard as I suspected. Lebron wouldnít shoot during that series. He passed the ball off. Thatís why after that year D Wade came to him and told him to be the guy.

    All your credibility left when you said the Heat would win more with Melo. Now your just proving it here. The f you watched the games, youíd know that Lebron did not did ball hog or run the offense against Dallas. He deferred and wasnít aggressive at all.

    Your proving to be more of a fraud than I thought with your fake proclamations if being a coach at a high level. You are trash and any team you run will be trash if you knowledge shown on these boards translates to the way you scout your talent.

    Anyway

    Once again

    You donít know hoops
    So Lebron decided to stop doing whatever he was doing all season long just because it was the Finals? Hmmm...

    Maybe it was because Lebron melted down and Wade had to carry the load? Did Lebron's assist numbers get a boost with his refusal to take more attempts? Did Wade or Bosh have more attempts during the Finals than during the rest of the Playoffs?

    This is the picture from the 1st round series. I'm not going to pull every series out there, do that yourself. This is just a sample.

    Philadephia game 1 (97-89 W)
    Lebron 14 attempts, 14 free throws in 42 minutes. 21 points.
    Wade, 13 attempts, 8 free throws in 35 minutes, 17 points.
    Bosh, 17 attempts, 11 free throws in 39 minutes, 25 points.

    Philadephia, game 2 (94-73 W)
    Lebron, 19 attempts, 10 free throws in 39 minutes, 29 points.
    Wade, 11 attempts, 7 free throws in 34 minutes, 14 points.
    Bosh, 13 attempts, 3 free throws in 35 minutes, 21 points.

    Philadephia, game 3 (100-94 W)
    Lebron, 15 attempts, 10 free throws in 44 minutes, 24 points.
    Wade, 19 attempts, 12 free throws in 39 minutes, 32 points.
    Bosh, 19 attempts, 6 free throws in 40 minutes, 19 points.

    Philadelphia, game 4 (82-86 L)
    Lebron, 20 attempts, 11 free throws in 43 minutes, 31 points.
    Wade, 21 attempts, 4 free throws in 40 minutes, 22 points.
    Bosh, 12 attempts, 2 free throws in 43 minutes, 12 points.

    Philadelphia, game 5 (97-91 W)
    Lebron, 13 attempts, 5 free throws in 42 minutes, 16 points.
    Wade, 25 attempts, 6 free throws in 42 minutes, 26 points.
    Bosh, 16 attempts, 10 free throws in 40 minutes, 22 points.

    Per game in the East:
    Lebron, 18.9 attempts in 44 minutes, 9.1 free throws and 5.5 assists.
    Wade, 17.7 attempts in 40 minutes, 8.7 free throws and 4.1 assists.
    Bosh, 13.3 attempts in 40 minutes, 6.3 free throws and 1.1 assists.

    Per game in the Finals:
    Lebron,15 attempts in 43 minutes, 3.3 free throws and 6.8 assists.
    Wade, 18 attempts in 39 minutes, 8.2 free throws and 5.2 assists.
    Bosh, 15.3 attempts in 39 minutes, 7.5 free throws and 1 assist.

    Which indicates that Lebron:
    1) Did not take as many attempts in the Finals as he was in the previous games of the Playoffs.
    2) Did not attack the basket as much, with an outstanding drop in free throw attempts.
    3) His assists tally did increase by a significant 1.3 per game but his shot attempts dropped by an astronomical 4 attempts per game.

    Bosh shot more in the Finals but at a lower % than before. He was at 50% and he dropped to 41%.
    Wade also had 1.1 more assists with pretty much the same shot attempts as before, actually a minor increase there too of 0.3 per game. So in layman's terms, Wade stepped up while Lebron stepped down.

    Why was Lebron not shooting if he's been "the man" for the entire playoffs until that moment? Maybe the criticism is fair and Lebron did choke in the series?

    P.S: I never said I was a coach, but that's a testament to your inability to read and digest text.

  2. #4907
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    You canít compare a prime Jordan to 20 year old Kobe. 20 year old Jordan is not playing in front of Prime Shaq. 18 year old Jordan played behind Worthy on his North Carolina Championship team.

    In 2001 Kobe was #1 in WS for the playoffs. 95% of the time the Finals MVP is #1 in Win Shares. 100% of the time if player is on the winning team. Kobe made it 99% of the time. That basically stamps that a 20 year old Jordan/Lebron would not be a ďalphaĒ no matter the ďadvance statsĒ.

    Kobe is the youngest player to be #1 in WS for the playoffs. At 22 years young. Another amazing GOAT moment.

  3. #4908
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    LeBron very clearly choked the 2011 Finals. Yes, the Mavs did a good job game planning to stop him, but every team game plans to stop the opposing teams best player. LeBron choked.

  4. #4909
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Are you seriously trying to say that Wade and Bosh didnít want to play with LeBron because LeBron announced his decision last

    So if Bron said he was going to Miami first Wade and Bosh would have gone elsewhere? Give me a break lol

    Yeah, and if Anthony Davis didnít want to play with LeBron he would have objected to the trade or told LA he was gone if they traded for him.

    You hate LeBron so much youíre actually arguing both that heís played with too many stars in his career and that you canít think of any stars that want to play with him

    Great stuff
    Erm, no?

    Again, you're nitpicking what I said because you have no answer.
    I never argued that "other superstars wanted to play with him" which was what I replied to. I said he wanted to play with other superstars. Oceans of difference.

    If Lebron was a player that everyone wanted to play with, then why did he fail to attract top talent apart from that 2010 scheme? When was the last great FA that joined a team where Lebron was playing? A trade is done by the management, so you cannot really say that a player pushed his FO to move him to Lebron's team unless you have evidence for that which I'll welcome.

    Anthony Davis moved to the Lakers, sure. He'd be a fool to say no. Didn't we establish that the Lakers is the greatest NBA organization? Did he move there solely because of Lebron? I don't think even Lebron assumes that.

    Bosh and Wade with Lebron orchestrated their FA deals. But since we want to be polite and not taint their legacy for doing so, we assume that Lebron made an independent decision as he was still talking with the Bulls, Knicks, Nets, Clippers and Cavs. If you want to believe that it just happened within a week in July, sure, then Lebron joined those two. I'm not stopping you from believing that.

    But 7 years in Cleveland you keep saying that he never had a quality teammate. What if no one of note wanted to join him? Why didn't anyone join him in Cleveland after he had "proven" he was a champion at Miami?

    Why is it that those few who have played with both say that Kobe is the superior player and not that many of his peers say that Lebron is one of the greatest five they've seen, with the exception of Curry who for all we know could be saying that so that we talk about how he beat him 3/4 times?

    Antwan Jamison and Shaq in particular have openly said that Kobe > Lebron, while Boozer said he cannot decide as he played with one as a rookie and the other in his final seasons. but when asked to build his perfect 3 on 3 team, he picked Jordan, Shaq and Durant with T-Mac as the reserve. Neither Kobe nor Lebron there.


    I'm still waiting on the list of teams that had 3 franchise players in their prime.

  5. #4910
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    ^

    Why did he fail to attract top talent aside from the time he attracted top talent

    Itís also amazing to me that you can comprehend why someone would want to go to Los Angeles and the Lakers because of reasons that have nothing to do with LeBron and then assume the reason people donít want to move to Cleveland was because of LeBron lol. Name anytime Cleveland has ever attracted a top level FA?

    Ray Allen left the Celtics Big 3 to go to Miami. Yeah, he was no longer a star but he wasnít turned off playing with Bron.

    As for why they didnít sign a big name FA his second stint in Cleveland, itís because they were over the cap and couldnít offer a max FA deal. This is basic basketball history 101.


    Your point is about as stupid as me saying because no superstar FAs signed with Magic, Jordan, or Birdís teams that means nobody wanted to play with them. Its just a stupid argument.
    Last edited by valade16; 05-24-2020 at 04:48 PM.

  6. #4911
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    So Lebron decided to stop doing whatever he was doing all season long just because it was the Finals? Hmmm...

    Maybe it was because Lebron melted down and Wade had to carry the load? Did Lebron's assist numbers get a boost with his refusal to take more attempts? Did Wade or Bosh have more attempts during the Finals than during the rest of the Playoffs?

    This is the picture from the 1st round series. I'm not going to pull every series out there, do that yourself. This is just a sample.

    Philadephia game 1 (97-89 W)
    Lebron 14 attempts, 14 free throws in 42 minutes. 21 points.
    Wade, 13 attempts, 8 free throws in 35 minutes, 17 points.
    Bosh, 17 attempts, 11 free throws in 39 minutes, 25 points.

    Philadephia, game 2 (94-73 W)
    Lebron, 19 attempts, 10 free throws in 39 minutes, 29 points.
    Wade, 11 attempts, 7 free throws in 34 minutes, 14 points.
    Bosh, 13 attempts, 3 free throws in 35 minutes, 21 points.

    Philadephia, game 3 (100-94 W)
    Lebron, 15 attempts, 10 free throws in 44 minutes, 24 points.
    Wade, 19 attempts, 12 free throws in 39 minutes, 32 points.
    Bosh, 19 attempts, 6 free throws in 40 minutes, 19 points.

    Philadelphia, game 4 (82-86 L)
    Lebron, 20 attempts, 11 free throws in 43 minutes, 31 points.
    Wade, 21 attempts, 4 free throws in 40 minutes, 22 points.
    Bosh, 12 attempts, 2 free throws in 43 minutes, 12 points.

    Philadelphia, game 5 (97-91 W)
    Lebron, 13 attempts, 5 free throws in 42 minutes, 16 points.
    Wade, 25 attempts, 6 free throws in 42 minutes, 26 points.
    Bosh, 16 attempts, 10 free throws in 40 minutes, 22 points.

    Per game in the East:
    Lebron, 18.9 attempts in 44 minutes, 9.1 free throws and 5.5 assists.
    Wade, 17.7 attempts in 40 minutes, 8.7 free throws and 4.1 assists.
    Bosh, 13.3 attempts in 40 minutes, 6.3 free throws and 1.1 assists.

    Per game in the Finals:
    Lebron,15 attempts in 43 minutes, 3.3 free throws and 6.8 assists.
    Wade, 18 attempts in 39 minutes, 8.2 free throws and 5.2 assists.
    Bosh, 15.3 attempts in 39 minutes, 7.5 free throws and 1 assist.

    Which indicates that Lebron:
    1) Did not take as many attempts in the Finals as he was in the previous games of the Playoffs.
    2) Did not attack the basket as much, with an outstanding drop in free throw attempts.
    3) His assists tally did increase by a significant 1.3 per game but his shot attempts dropped by an astronomical 4 attempts per game.

    Bosh shot more in the Finals but at a lower % than before. He was at 50% and he dropped to 41%.
    Wade also had 1.1 more assists with pretty much the same shot attempts as before, actually a minor increase there too of 0.3 per game. So in layman's terms, Wade stepped up while Lebron stepped down.

    Why was Lebron not shooting if he's been "the man" for the entire playoffs until that moment? Maybe the criticism is fair and Lebron did choke in the series?

    P.S: I never said I was a coach, but that's a testament to your inability to read and digest text.
    Lol, so yes as I stated, he deferred. Iím glad you looked it up and proved me right and you wrong son. Next.

    Oh

    And you donít know hoops
    Last edited by IKnowHoops; 05-24-2020 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #4912
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    I tend to think that prime MJ and Prime Shaq would be just like Prime Curry and Durant right now. Thatíll or even closer. Because both of them get it done at the same efficiency clip. For me thatís why Shaq was the clear #1 over Kobe, because when you run through Shaq you win, when you go through Kobe nobody touches the ball as he goes into iso mode for lowers pct shots. Jordan on the other hand was a more willing passer than Kobe and more efficient offensively so going through Mike or Shaq would yield fairly similar results.

    Again you canít compare a prime player to a 20 year old player.

    Remember when James got swept in the finals against the Spurs? Less then a year later, Spurs took a bigger beating against the Lakers. Kobe also did it playing the exact way you describe. Refusing to use his teammates while being guarded by the #4 defensive MVP Bowen and Duncan All NBA first team. #1 defense in the league. Cleveland lost by 24 points total(all games)in the finals. Lakers destroyed Spurs by 30 in a single game.

    Only a GOAT can play exclusively against a defending championship teamís strengths while playing a losing style of Basketball (ISO) and completely out class that team.

    These kind of GOAT moments only come once in a Basketball era.

  8. #4913
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    No, that was one of the criteria, it wasnít the only one. I listed a half dozen (most MVPs, Finals MVPs, All-NBA 1st Teams, Most PPG, get the ball in crunch time, for the most shots, etc.)

    Pro tip: if youíre hanging your hat on the guy being the alpha because he meets 1 of the criteria, that means the other guy met all the other criteria and is in fact the alpha.

    No double standards, just a weak attempt at you trying to argue something that isnít true.
    Lol I have never said or even insinuated that Kobe was the alpha when he played with a Shaq. To this point I've only pointed out inconsistencies in your posts. And when I do you move the goal posts to exclude Kobe.

    Shaq was "the" alpha on them Lakers team, no denying that. But after their 1st championship (00/01 season) Kobe was a bonafide alpha also. Him going on to win 2 more championships after parting from Shaq proves that. Shaq was just a badder alpha. There wasn't a team in the league that wouldn't of taken Kobe to lead their franchise. Or are you gonna deny that?

    Wade, before LBJ, was an alpha. Just cause LBJ went there didn't make him not an alpha. James was just a badder alpha.

    Curry, before KD, was the alpha. When KD went to GS did that kick Curry down to beta?

  9. #4914
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Your point is about as stupid as me saying because no superstar FAs signed with Magic, Jordan, or Birdís teams that means nobody wanted to play with them. Its just a stupid argument.
    With the difference that Magic and Bird could not attract free agents because Free Agency came after 1988.. More of that Basketball History 101 on another post.

  10. #4915
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    Lol, so yes as I stated, he deferred. Iím glad you looked it up and proved me right and you wrong son. Next.

    Oh

    And you donít know hoops
    Why did he do that in the Finals, but not in previous series?

  11. #4916
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Lol I have never said or even insinuated that Kobe was the alpha when he played with a Shaq. To this point I've only pointed out inconsistencies in your posts. And when I do you move the goal posts to exclude Kobe.

    Shaq was "the" alpha on them Lakers team, no denying that. But after their 1st championship (00/01 season) Kobe was a bonafide alpha also. Him going on to win 2 more championships after parting from Shaq proves that. Shaq was just a badder alpha. There wasn't a team in the league that wouldn't of taken Kobe to lead their franchise. Or are you gonna deny that?

    Wade, before LBJ, was an alpha. Just cause LBJ went there didn't make him not an alpha. James was just a badder alpha.

    Curry, before KD, was the alpha. When KD went to GS did that kick Curry down to beta?

    I agree 100%. Curry deserved the back to back MVP and he was the best player in Basketball. KD also little brother Curry in GS.

    Here is another GOAT moment for Kobe. Kobe burned down the Lakers to the 99 Bulls. Kobeís team after Shaq was much weaker to the team that made Jordan retire for a second time. Yet Kobe took control and still ended up winning back to back championship. Thatís a true Alpha move.

  12. #4917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    They sure matter to those who care about winning, but some posters don't like to account for that because it completely tanks their argument for LBJ.
    Kobe would not have won those first three without Shaq (a top ten all timer) and Kobe would not have beaten the KD era Warriors teams or the pre-KD Warrior team with Matthew Delladova as his Robin.

    Maybe Kobe wouldnít have lost to the Mavs that year (although he did) if he replaced Lebron on the Heat and maybe he wouldíve beaten the Spurs, too. But no team Kobe ever faced was on that KD Warrior level and no team he was ever on was as deficient as the Kyrie/Love-less team.

    How many Finals did Kobe make without Shaq or Pau Gasol?

  13. #4918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Sure, but LBJ has made up for that over the last 10 years or so where he's been continually paired with stars of his choosing during his prime years. One thing to keep in mind is that Kobe was out of hs when he was paired with shaq. That pairing goes a lot different (and likely results in far more titles) if prime Kobe was paired with prime shaq.

    Stepping away from who the players are, if we're going to pick one of two situations as far as being optimal for winning, where one future top 10 all-time superstar out of hs is paired with a top 10 all-time superstar who is in his prime versus a top 10 all-time superstar who during his prime is paired with other 2 other players who are borderline between being a star and a superstar, I think the latter is going to be a better situation for winning, because in the former case, the guy isn't going to be ready to be an elite player for several years. When looking at shaq and Kobe, Kobe wasn't really a star until 2000 and shaq really only had another 3 years or so of peak prime basketball left in him at that point. In LBJ's case, he's bypassed the issue of his teammates getting older by selecting a new cast of star players to play with whenever that occurs and he's done that for over a decade now. So yes, Kobe was fortunate to be drafted to the lakers, but the better situation for winning is what LBJ has done, which is why he does it.
    1. Canít fault him for leaving Cleveland and Iím not even going to go into the why. Canít fault him for joining friends in Miami of all places, either. Not everyone gets drafted (or traded on draft day) to a franchise like the Lakers.
    2. Lebron wanted to win one for Cleveland. They were not a playoff team and was not super tight with Kyrie. Wiggins got dealt for a more win now player and Love was the best he could get. Love and Kyrie never went to the playoffs before they played with Lebron. Not like he recruited Carmelo and Chris Paul who were his legit friends.
    3. Lebron wanted to be in LA for nonbasketball reasons. They were not a playoff team when he joined and have been in a mess for years.

  14. #4919
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Lol I have never said or even insinuated that Kobe was the alpha when he played with a Shaq. To this point I've only pointed out inconsistencies in your posts. And when I do you move the goal posts to exclude Kobe.

    Shaq was "the" alpha on them Lakers team, no denying that. But after their 1st championship (00/01 season) Kobe was a bonafide alpha also. Him going on to win 2 more championships after parting from Shaq proves that. Shaq was just a badder alpha. There wasn't a team in the league that wouldn't of taken Kobe to lead their franchise. Or are you gonna deny that?

    Wade, before LBJ, was an alpha. Just cause LBJ went there didn't make him not an alpha. James was just a badder alpha.

    Curry, before KD, was the alpha. When KD went to GS did that kick Curry down to beta?
    Never once moved the goal posts. You just tried to take one of 6 measures of an Alpha to declare that makes someone an Alpha, as opposed to the guy who displayed the other 5 measures.

    I wasn't even the one who brought up Alpha's, I believe you were (or someone else was).

  15. #4920
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    With the difference that Magic and Bird could not attract free agents because Free Agency came after 1988.. More of that Basketball History 101 on another post.
    I'm aware. So what you're saying is that nobody wanted to play with Jordan because he couldn't attract any big name FA's after 1988.

    It's just a stupid argument. Perhaps the dumbest of the ones you've tried to make hating LeBron (and that's saying a lot).

    Can you even name all the big name superstar Free Agent's Cleveland even had the opportunity to sign?

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