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  1. #4861
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    When comparing alphas, MVPs would be more telling as winning rings is a total team effort. When Jordan was at his most dominant, he didnít win any rings. He won when the team around him got better and the teams he was playing against got older and worse. I could easily build a team around Jordan that would never win no matter how much he harnessed his skills. Does that mean he is still not the GOAT if I put trash around him that canít help him win?
    If Jordan didn't have the rings he wouldn't even be in the discussion of being the GOAT... Example Chamberlain

  2. #4862
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So any label that doesn't benefit LBJ is childish? What if someone says MVPs were crap, a popularity contest. Really, Nash has as many as Kobe and Shaq combined.
    Dude an mvp is earned. Your naming one beta off of a sound bite. Nothing is perfect and mvps arenít the end all be all but you making a point about Bron being a beta because he said itís Wades team isnít even worth mentioning...like not at all...that label has nothing to do what transpired on the floor, especially when you consider that Lebron lead the team in basically every statistic on the team.

  3. #4863
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    If Jordan didn't have the rings he wouldn't even be in the discussion of being the GOAT... Example Chamberlain
    Which is my point, he could be just as good as he was and play with trash teamates. Nothing changed but the teamates, so he should still be the GOAT. Heíd still be 1/2 in ever individual advanced stat and still have 10 scoring titles he should still be GOAT. He was still the best his team just wasnít. Which is why ring count isnít at the top of the list for deciding who was the best

  4. #4864
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKnowHoops View Post
    I def think Lebron had the better career. Remember, Iím into statistics. And if you look at best years of basketball statistically incorporating efficiency into everything as well, Lebron has probably 5-7 years better than Kobeís beat year when it comes to regular season, and probably 10 years of best playoff stats over Kobeís best year. So yes. Kobe has 2 more rings, Bron has 4mvp to Kobes 1 Mvp and 3 finals MVP to Kobeís 2. Now again. The stats back up what I am saying here. Itís not an opinion of who was better statistically, this is what the stats say.
    So is Chamberlain better then LBJ?

  5. #4865
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Who said anything about Wade being the better player? LBJ himself said that the Heat were Wades team, that makes Wade the alpha and LBJ the beta. No matter who was the better player.

    Same like the Spurs were Duncans team the year they beat the Heat even though Kawhi was the better player.
    Nah that isnít how it works. LeBron was the alpha. The last shot went to Bron. In crunch time, the ball was in LeBronís hands.

    LeBron can say what he wants, he was the Alpha of that team. Honestly, youíre reaching very hard to latch onto that as why he wasnít the Alpha. LeBron also said he was the GOAT, do you think he is the GOAT now that he said it?

  6. #4866
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    If Jordan said the Bulls were Pippenís team would ANYONE think Jordan was suddenly the Beta there? Of course not.

    LeBron was so much the alpha of the Heat it isnít even funny. In fact, the problem the Heat has at the beginning was both LeBron and Wade trying to be the Alpha, it was only when Wade stepped back into his Beta role that they started thriving.

    This isnít my opinion, Wade straight up said so:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nba.nbc...lead-heat/amp/

    The hardest thing he had to do was take a step back and let LeBron lead. Heís the best player in the world.

  7. #4867
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Nah that isnít how it works. LeBron was the alpha. The last shot went to Bron. In crunch time, the ball was in LeBronís hands.

    LeBron can say what he wants, he was the Alpha of that team. Honestly, youíre reaching very hard to latch onto that as why he wasnít the Alpha. LeBron also said he was the GOAT, do you think he is the GOAT now that he said it?
    In crunchtime during Kobe and Shaqs 3peat, the ball was in Kobes hands.

  8. #4868
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    In crunchtime during Kobe and Shaqs 3peat, the ball was in Kobes hands.
    Yeah, no. Shaq was the engine. Kobe had the ball to give it Shaq.

    Shaq out scores Kobe:

    26 to 20 2000 WCFs
    38 to 16 2000 Finals

    33 to 25 2001 Finals

    30 to 27 2002 WCFs
    36 to 27 2002 Finals


    Shaq was very clearly the Alpha

  9. #4869
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Yeah, no. Shaq was the engine. Kobe had the ball to give it Shaq.

    Shaq out scores Kobe:

    26 to 20 2000 WCFs
    38 to 16 2000 Finals

    33 to 25 2001 Finals

    30 to 27 2002 WCFs
    36 to 27 2002 Finals


    Shaq was very clearly the Alpha
    Those are game stats. In your prior post you specifically mentioned "crunchtime" that the ball was in LBJs hands to prove that he was the alpha. During the Lakers 3peat, the ball was in Kobes hands during crunchtime. So by your rationale does that make Kobe the alpha? I never said he was the alpha.

    I'm really loving all the double standards here.

  10. #4870
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Yeah, no. Shaq was the engine. Kobe had the ball to give it Shaq.

    Shaq out scores Kobe:

    26 to 20 2000 WCFs
    38 to 16 2000 Finals

    33 to 25 2001 Finals

    30 to 27 2002 WCFs
    36 to 27 2002 Finals


    Shaq was very clearly the Alpha
    Shaq was the engine. That Shaq ALPHAís any player in the history of the game. Canít knock a player for playing behind that.

  11. #4871
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    Those are game stats. In your prior post you specifically mentioned "crunchtime" that the ball was in LBJs hands to prove that he was the alpha. During the Lakers 3peat, the ball was in Kobes hands during crunchtime. So by your rationale does that make Kobe the alpha? I never said he was the alpha.

    I'm really loving all the double standards here.
    No, that was one of the criteria, it wasnít the only one. I listed a half dozen (most MVPs, Finals MVPs, All-NBA 1st Teams, Most PPG, get the ball in crunch time, for the most shots, etc.)

    Pro tip: if youíre hanging your hat on the guy being the alpha because he meets 1 of the criteria, that means the other guy met all the other criteria and is in fact the alpha.

    No double standards, just a weak attempt at you trying to argue something that isnít true.
    Last edited by valade16; 05-24-2020 at 01:10 AM.

  12. #4872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    Shaq was the engine. That Shaq ALPHAís any player in the history of the game. Canít knock a player for playing behind that.
    Agreed. Itís not Kobeís fault he was drafted to the most dominant Center since Wilt. My point is to look at the circumstances. Itís bad luck to try to be an alpha and be drafted to Shaqís team. That being said, itís WAY more bad luck to be LeBron and not be drafted to a team with Shaq at all.

  13. #4873
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    So is Chamberlain better then LBJ?
    Arguably, there are stats in favor of both, but Lebron has more of them in his favor.

  14. #4874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    This is my main critique of LBJ. I think he's a great player, but I think he often sacrifices playing the right way for playing his way and getting his stats. I think his style of play is fine if he has a bunch of guys who are willing to be spot up shooters, but otherwise I don't think that it is effective, especially against elite teams. The effect, I think is that it turns superstar players into glorified role players...and so yeah, LBJ puts up great numbers but its at the cost of never really forming a synergy with his other star teammates.
    Which is exactly why I think Melo would have been a better fit for Miami than Lebron in 2010 if that was possible.

  15. #4875
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Like I said, Kobe was fortunate enough to be drafted (we actually, he plotted his way) to a team that had Shaquille OíNeal. This allowed him to win 2 titles as a beta, he was not the aloha on that 3-peat.

    I think Kobe was absolutely fortunate to be drafted to the Lakers compared to LeBron being drafted to the Cavs.

    I also think if youíre comparing titles as the alpha, itís 3-2 LeBron.
    He didn't plot his way to team up with Shaq. Shaq came later and he didn't even care who else was on the Lakers as long as Divac wasn't there to get his playing time.

    Kobe wanted to play for a franchise he loved. Growing up in Europe I'm pretty sure he was influenced by that since we all have our teams and we never change them (in every country/language there's a saying that you can change wives, political parties, religion, city, home etc but you can never change your team). Kobe grew up as a Laker and wanted to be a Laker, I don't see anything bad with that. He could have gone to college or play in Europe if he was drafted by someone else.

    P.S: What does that make his 3rd Lakers title? Alphabet?

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