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  1. #3346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Even the former greats, who almost have an unwritten rule to never toss current players way up in all time rankings, have all, and I mean all, come around and stated Lebron is one of the greatest few to ever play. I watched Bird, Magic, and everyone since. I know stats. I am old enough that biases no longer contort my views. LEbron is better than anyone I have seen except Jordan. He dominates in so many ways that even Bird, Magic, Shaq, or Duncan couldn't. He has done it for over 15 years and counting now. Multiple MVPs, titles, Finals MVPs, and numbers that are from a video game. He is easily a top 3 player ever for me. MJ, and KAJ are really his only peers in my view. I can stomach a case for Wilt too.
    That statement alone oozes of credulity. I don't doubt you believe you are correct. You are just so overly convinced of it, you are unwilling to be open minded to any contradictions in your own philosophy.

    You all are telling me how wrong I am, then when I bring up a valid point and act as if it's so ridiculous and beneath you that it's not worth your time to prove me wrong. I might be so inclined as to say that these could be diversion tactics.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 02-15-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #3347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Airport lounges are great. If there are so many examples, and this is so easy, shouldn't something come to the top of your mind quite easily?

    How drunk are you lol?
    Its easy. Just not with nachos

  3. #3348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    That statement alone oozes of credulity. I don't doubt you believe you are correct. You are just so overly convinced of it, you are unwilling to be open minded to any contradictions in your own philosophy.

    You all are telling me how wrong I am, then when I bring up a valid point and act as if it's so ridiculous and beneath you that it's not worth your time to prove me wrong. I might be so inclined as to say that these could be diversion tactics.
    Gonna agree here. You're never gonna rid yourself of biases

  4. #3349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    It was a joke lol. I was hardly throwing a grammar police accusation at you. I know it quite well indeed. You were the one claiming you know of worse failures than LeBron in 2011. I know the history, and have made my assertations. If you feel I missed something, kindly enlighten me.
    Let's find out.
    First round, locked down by a great defender but with inferior talent. You were favored if not for ur let down.

    Who am I talking about?

  5. #3350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    Name one equal to or worse than LeBron in 2011.
    **** I can kill two birds with one stone.

    In 1981, Magic and Kareem lost in the 1st Round to the 39-43 Rockets. They lost to a team with a losing record...

    You talk about LeBron losing in the Finals in 2011? Imagine if the Heat lost in the 1st round to the 41-41 76ers that season. That is the equivalent of what Magic and Kareem did...

  6. #3351
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    **** I can kill two birds with one stone.

    In 1981, Magic and Kareem lost in the 1st Round to the 39-43 Rockets. They lost to a team with a losing record...

    You talk about LeBron losing in the Finals in 2011? Imagine if the Heat lost in the 1st round to the 41-41 76ers that season. That is the equivalent of what Magic and Kareem did...
    This is exactly why regular season records mean nothing. That Houston team just found chemistry at the right time and went on to the NBA Finals that year where they lost in 6 to Bird's Celtics. Might I also add that it was still best of three series in the first round back then.

    My main point is that can we attribute the Lakers upset to the meltdown of an individual player? Magic was not 100% healthy that year and only played in like 30 games iirc. Also, there were tons of issues with coach Westhead. Can we honestly say that either Magic or Kareem melted down and caused their far superior team to lose to an inferior opponent. LeBron was 100% healthy and melted down in four consecutive fourth quarters in close games. Had he even done a sniff of anything, the Heat win that series easily. The 81 Houston Rockets were a sleeping Juggernaut.

  7. #3352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    This is exactly why regular season records mean nothing. That Houston team just found chemistry at the right time and went on to the NBA Finals that year where they lost in 6 to Bird's Celtics. Might I also add that it was still best of three series in the first round back then.

    My main point is that can we attribute the Lakers upset to the meltdown of an individual player? Magic was not 100% healthy that year and only played in like 30 games iirc. Also, there were tons of issues with coach Westhead. Can we honestly say that either Magic or Kareem melted down and caused their far superior team to lose to an inferior opponent. LeBron was 100% healthy and melted down in four consecutive fourth quarters in close games. Had he even done a sniff of anything, the Heat win that series easily. The 81 Houston Rockets were a sleeping Juggernaut.
    Hereís my problem with you: you just made EVERY excuse in the book for Magic and Kareem. If it were LeBron who lost to those Rockets, you would NOT be using any of those excuses for him...

    Also, your argument applies in LeBronís case as well. Those Mavericks found chemistry at exactly the right time. Heck, they defeated the Kobe Lakers and the KD/Westy OKC.

    And yes, both Magic and Kareem did not play well enough to win that series (obviously). Magic shot 38% and Kareem was vastly outplayed by Moses.

    But the bottom line is, donít bend over backward excusing everyone elseís favors and not do the same for LeBron.

  8. #3353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    I understand all the stats man. I have a degree in Finance and Accounting and have taken many advanced statistics classes in college along the way. I have also studied the game of basketball for decades. I do not chose to ignore them. I just know how to place proper context, and how AT TIMES they can be misleading. My list and opinions factor all this in.
    Well you are ignoring the **** out of them, context, accolades, achievements, and every other measure of ranking an individual in a team sport haha

  9. #3354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    That statement alone oozes of credulity. I don't doubt you believe you are correct. You are just so overly convinced of it, you are unwilling to be open minded to any contradictions in your own philosophy.

    You all are telling me how wrong I am, then when I bring up a valid point and act as if it's so ridiculous and beneath you that it's not worth your time to prove me wrong. I might be so inclined as to say that these could be diversion tactics.
    Being a Wolves fan, I have zero personal biases against another team or player, we never went far enough for me to develop one. As I aged, I stopped hating Duncan, then Kobe, and just relaxed. Its just a game. But I have watched, studied, and followed the game forever. For me, MJ is it over Lebron. Every piece of mathematical evidence you can attach to it backs my opinion, as does the countless opinions around the game.

    Anyways, I used to find this debate rather interesting. 6 years ago. Now its asinine.

  10. #3355
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Hereís my problem with you: you just made EVERY excuse in the book for Magic and Kareem. If it were LeBron who lost to those Rockets, you would NOT be using any of those excuses for him...

    Also, your argument applies in LeBronís case as well. Those Mavericks found chemistry at exactly the right time. Heck, they defeated the Kobe Lakers and the KD/Westy OKC.

    And yes, both Magic and Kareem did not play well enough to win that series (obviously). Magic shot 38% and Kareem was vastly outplayed by Moses.

    But the bottom line is, donít bend over backward excusing everyone elseís favors and not do the same for LeBron.
    Bron lost to a Mavs team that was firing on every cylinder and had multiple guys dipping into the fountain of youth or overachieving. Yet he gets killed. As he should. Magic played pretty crappy competition out west each year, but its forgotten. Shows you how time shapes legacies..

  11. #3356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo Naes View Post
    It was a factor.



    There was no foul called on that play. How can one be reprimanded if there is no call to adjust in the first place? Should the NBA be able to then go back and either add or change calls that were missed in games in the future by that logic? They certainly set precedent for it. Only to do so at their disclosure though. Surprised more wasn't made of it honestly. Stephen A. Smith called it out, but was brushed under the rug and no one else really ran with it.



    Five dudes in consensus on some random website is hardly a "popular opinion" lol. Also, "popular opinion" does not necessarily mean correct opinion.
    Sure, bro. Circles and circles and circles. Pointless.

  12. #3357
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Hereís my problem with you: you just made EVERY excuse in the book for Magic and Kareem. If it were LeBron who lost to those Rockets, you would NOT be using any of those excuses for him...
    Not excuses, facts. There is no way to justify LeBron's poor play in those four consecutive fourth quarters, nor is there for the fact that he was vastly outplayed by an old Jason Terry. At no point were Kareem or Magic the sole cause of their team getting upset by an inferior team. Those Rockets were truly great as was Moses Malone. LeBron was in the NBA Finals and had the whole league beat except for one team. It's likely the Lakers would have lost to the Celtics that year in the NBA Finals regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Also, your argument applies in LeBronís case as well. Those Mavericks found chemistry at exactly the right time. Heck, they defeated the Kobe Lakers and the KD/Westy OKC.
    The Lakers were done bro lol. Kobe was done, Pau was done. OKC was a young team barely finding themselves. Dallas was solid, but long in the tooth and not nearly as talented at LeBron's newly formed Heat were.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And yes, both Magic and Kareem did not play well enough to win that series (obviously). Magic shot 38% and Kareem was vastly outplayed by Moses
    .

    Magic was coming off a bad knee injury and was being held back by his coach. Westhead was butting heads with both Magic and the other teammates. Coach Westhead would not give him the full ability to run the point the way he wanted. Magic wanted a more free flowing and fast paced offense. Magic lobbied to have him let go about ten games into the following season in favor of Pat Riley and we all know how well that worked out for them. Showtime. Kareem was outplayed, but not vastly out played. Moses was a stud and on a mission that year. Kareem still put up like 27, 17, and 4 lol. Hardly a meltdown. Only a best of three series too might I add.

    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    But the bottom line is, donít bend over backward excusing everyone elseís favors and not do the same for LeBron.
    Neither Magic nor Kareem as individuals melted down to the degree LeBron James did in that 2011 NBA Finals series. There were extenuating circumstances and these are just facts. Can you actually give an excuse for LeBron melting down the way he did? Magic was not fully 100% healthy and was being held back by his coach, Kareem while not playing as well as Moses, hardly melted down and still played relatively well. Neither completely disappeared at any given stretch of time either. Both offensively or defensively. LeBron was completely invisible for four consecutive fourth quarters in the biggest series of his life at the time. That speaks volumes to me and is truly not comparable.
    Last edited by Romeo Naes; 02-15-2020 at 08:23 PM.

  13. #3358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddletramp View Post
    Sure, bro. Circles and circles and circles. Pointless.
    You managed to sidestep all my points and direct questions half assed strawman bs. Lame. Please hold true to your word then if you feel it is pointless and don't engage if you can't hang.

  14. #3359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Well you are ignoring the **** out of them, context, accolades, achievements, and every other measure of ranking an individual in a team sport haha
    Duncan is a much better winner. You never answered my earlier question about Duncan. He won championships with less talent than LeBron ever had and did it more often against great teams. Have any of LeBron's championships been as impressive as his was in 03? Contextually speaking, Duncan was a far greater impact player in terms of winning and team impact. Both the most important things to me overall. Stats and MVP's are only added fluff beyond that.

  15. #3360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Bron lost to a Mavs team that was firing on every cylinder and had multiple guys dipping into the fountain of youth or overachieving. Yet he gets killed. As he should. Magic played pretty crappy competition out west each year, but its forgotten. Shows you how time shapes legacies..
    Yes yes, I know. Every team that beats LeBron is either the best ever, or was on a miracle run. They knocked off a lakers team that was ready to be pushed off the hill and an OKC team who was just on the verge of finding themselves. LeBron choked point blank. Those games were close and if he had done even a lick of anything, they likely win that series handily. I have never seen a disappearing act quite like it.

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