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  1. #2311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    No, Wade was not more productive with shaq than Kobe was, at least not when any basic reasoning skills are used and the context is examined.
    Quantifiably false, the facts are there has never been a situation favorable enough for Kobe to match Wade's level of output. We've seen both players lead their one man squads, Wade was more productive then. We've seen Kobe try to the do it all playmaker role, his turnovers spiked and his production only returned to form under the triangle. Wade was simply a superior passer/creater for others, I doubt we see the Lakers go through a stretch like when Kobe was holding the team back, I highly doubt Phil ever wants to trade an unselfish star like Wade either.

    Im also glad you can admit Kobe was a 2nd option in the manner that it relieves him of truly carrying. Despite this advantage (remember, he was LESS efficient and LOST a **** ton without Shaq), he STILL wasn't as efficient as Wade. So he was neither more prolific nor more effective, unless you enjoy misses. We've also seen Wade team up with Bron and play the 2nd option role to a more productive line when he was closer to his prime/healthier. Which is quite telling given the skillset overlap between the 2 players (when Bron was on the bench, Wade was back to posting huge numbers. By comparison, Kobe was less efficient under these circumstances).

    Theres also the fact that Wade got more out of his old Shaq. With or without Kobe, Shaq tore it up, moreso even. With Wade, Shaq was more efficient. 2nd year Wade got an MVP caliber season out of Shaq (he unjustly finished 2nd to Nash).

    It's funny how you account for the role the player is playing on a team for Malone, but completely neglect it here (showing your Kobe bias once again).
    It was never neglected, the difference is minuscule unless you are willing to concede it greatly diminishes Kobe's championships. You will argue he was a 1/B rather than a regular 2nd Option in other arguments.

    You also just compared the role of an outlet option to that of a primary option, exposing your inability to properly contextualize and quantify the sport you watch. Depending on where you stand here I will continue but feel free to point out any objective material.

    Wade was the first option with shaq, whereas Kobe was the 2nd option
    Imagine a first option making his 2nd option the MVP contender.... thats quite a gift. Its also hilarious how 2nd option Kobe took more shots than "first option Wade". When Wade was the clear alpha and Shaq had clearly lost a step, he took 18.8 FGA. Kobe, despite being the 2nd option, chucked away 20x times a game and up to 22 the year he held the team back with his ball hoggery and selfishness. Theres a reason Phil wanted him gone, theres a reason why the championship DVD makes mention of the importance of that stretch when the Lakers just dominated when Kobe was hurt.

    (also you conveniently ignore the differences in their ages when making the comparisons
    False, go re-read the post you quoted. I made note of this fact and offered an opening to various timelines, one of which I directly stated was having them at the same ages. It was never ignored, you just lack reading comprehension.


    along with the fact that almost 5/8 of the games Wade played were basically against g-league competition. It's doubtful Wade would put up anywhere near the numbers Kobe put up playing alongside shaq as the 2nd option.
    Except its not a fact and your not going to convince anyone of such a lol worthy correlation much less causation. I've seen the numbers, you are greatly exaggerating this claim and disregarding methods for accounting for this. Im also not sure it holds true for everyone anyways, we've seen the numbers on Kobe and Wade vs various teams for awhile now, I dont see what the **** you're talking about. Try listing facts instead of pure unsubstantiated conjecture (because of your job, I guess...), its not hard to look this stuff up and try to find objective evidence supporting your claims. Its really just ignorance to statistics IMO.

    It's also funny that you guys are assuming peak Wade plays with peak Shaq.
    I never said that, I said Wade was more productive (by ALOT) when he was the solo star (yes, during his peak) but I can change it to prime run if you want.

    If we're going to make that assumption, then the same needs to be done for Kobe and we need to put peak Kobe along peak shaq as well (Kobe did not get to his peak until around 06). If we stick Kobe from 06-13 with peak shaq pretty sure the Kobe/Shaq pairing wins substantially more than the Wade/Shaq pairing.
    I disagree entirely based on how much more productive Wade was in every concievable situation and how much more he got out of Shaq with his playmaking and the fact that Wade was far more unselfish a player (better chemistry). But yeah, that Kobe with Shaq is prolly right there too but I feel like Wade came into the league a better leader, he didn't need those years of hardship and painful breakups with Shaq to play with that team mentality. Kobe wins more titles if we assume they could handle each other better and force it out because Wade lacked the longevity.
    Last edited by Chronz; 12-05-2019 at 07:29 PM.

  2. #2312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonjorge View Post
    If we are changing roles and Wade is with Shaq in LA then what happens when Kobe joins Lebron in Miami? Heat would of won the championship against Dallas and Kobe gets the finals MVP. Heat win 3+ championship easily.
    That would actually be interesting but that was with Wade on the way out of his prime. He was declining before Bron even got there but would drop off the superstar cliff within like 2.5 years (he was really injured when it mattered most).

  3. #2313
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I just adore how the discussion of "who is the better player" always gets diverted to "the one who had the better teammates was actually the best since they pretty much had a stronger team than without eachother"... Guys, can you just point out what makes Kobe a better player than Lebron and/or what makes Lebron a better player than Kobe? No Shaq, no Wade, no Smush Parker, no Larry Hughes... Just a straight up comparison.

    Shooting/scoring for example can be broken up into sections of the court, versus being marked by a smaller or bigger player and so on..

    Passing ability is harder to assess usually since assists rely on the effectiveness of the recipient more than the quality of the pass. And recently assists are just handed away like candy since the last pass at almost any moment may count as an assist, despite the receiving player spending more than 5 seconds with the ball or makes more than a couple steps, changes direction and so on...

    There are so many things to talk about when comparing players and for almost 60 pages all I see is whose teammates sucked the more or were the greatest.... It's a team sport, stop evaluating players on the ability of their club to get better talent around them and start focusing on individual quality if you want to do a one on one comparison!

    Why does it have to be so hard to talk about the actual game of basketball? At this rate it's far more likely to have players rated based on their social media followers than their ability to score or defend the basket...
    Because what you get out of your team goes beyond your own individual talent/skill set, it gets into how you THINK the game and thats where we look at the impact you have on your team/mates.

    And scorekeepers actuall got more liberal with rewarding assists in the 80's, thats around the time they changed the criteria IIRC. In the 70's the guy had to basically go up for a shot without dribbling but yeah, there are still alot of wierd assists today and ways to rack them up without being much of a creater.


    You can break up shooting however you want, it wont tell you much on its own. For example, Hakeem could score in more ways than Shaq, but he was never as productive nor did he as consistently lead great offenses as often as Shaq could. Offensively, Shaq is in another stratosphere in terms of how he could not be defended 1v1.

    Kobe is prolly the most skilled scorer I've ever seen and he had more range than MJ, but MJ was simply too efficient and too athletic to be limited to such low% shots, he was more dominant. Period.


    Nobody gives a **** about social media, I just know how soft the 80's were.

  4. #2314
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    Just as an aside, I always felt Penny and Nash got the most out of their version of Shaq, but they themselves lacked the individual game/production that Kobe and Wade had to win big. Wade had the best combination of making his teammates better AND producing at a high level with insane efficiency. Im starting to think we underrated him and that he may have been better than Bron some years, or at least right there with him.

  5. #2315
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    I just adore how the discussion of "who is the better player" always gets diverted to "the one who had the better teammates was actually the best since they pretty much had a stronger team than without eachother"... Guys, can you just point out what makes Kobe a better player than Lebron and/or what makes Lebron a better player than Kobe? No Shaq, no Wade, no Smush Parker, no Larry Hughes... Just a straight up comparison.

    Shooting/scoring for example can be broken up into sections of the court, versus being marked by a smaller or bigger player and so on..

    Passing ability is harder to assess usually since assists rely on the effectiveness of the recipient more than the quality of the pass. And recently assists are just handed away like candy since the last pass at almost any moment may count as an assist, despite the receiving player spending more than 5 seconds with the ball or makes more than a couple steps, changes direction and so on...

    There are so many things to talk about when comparing players and for almost 60 pages all I see is whose teammates sucked the more or were the greatest.... It's a team sport, stop evaluating players on the ability of their club to get better talent around them and start focusing on individual quality if you want to do a one on one comparison!

    Why does it have to be so hard to talk about the actual game of basketball? At this rate it's far more likely to have players rated based on their social media followers than their ability to score or defend the basket...
    We did that and itís clearly lebron. Remove team success, the situation they are in, coach rings, etc. breakdown each player Lebron hands down.

  6. #2316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Quantifiably false, the facts are there has never been a situation favorable enough for Kobe to match Wade's level of output. We've seen both players lead their one man squads, Wade was more productive then. We've seen Kobe try to the do it all playmaker role, his turnovers spiked and his production only returned to form under the triangle. Wade was simply a superior passer/creater for others, I doubt we see the Lakers go through a stretch like when Kobe was holding the team back, I highly doubt Phil ever wants to trade an unselfish star like Wade either.

    Im also glad you can admit Kobe was a 2nd option in the manner that it relieves him of truly carrying. Despite this advantage (remember, he was LESS efficient and LOST a **** ton without Shaq), he STILL wasn't as efficient as Wade. So he was neither more prolific nor more effective, unless you enjoy misses. We've also seen Wade team up with Bron and play the 2nd option role to a more productive line when he was closer to his prime/healthier. Which is quite telling given the skillset overlap between the 2 players (when Bron was on the bench, Wade was back to posting huge numbers. By comparison, Kobe was less efficient under these circumstances).

    Theres also the fact that Wade got more out of his old Shaq. With or without Kobe, Shaq tore it up, moreso even. With Wade, Shaq was more efficient. 2nd year Wade got an MVP caliber season out of Shaq (he unjustly finished 2nd to Nash).


    It was never neglected, the difference is minuscule unless you are willing to concede it greatly diminishes Kobe's championships. You will argue he was a 1/B rather than a regular 2nd Option in other arguments.

    You also just compared the role of an outlet option to that of a primary option, exposing your inability to properly contextualize and quantify the sport you watch. Depending on where you stand here I will continue but feel free to point out any objective material.


    Imagine a first option making his 2nd option the MVP contender.... thats quite a gift. Its also hilarious how 2nd option Kobe took more shots than "first option Wade". When Wade was the clear alpha and Shaq had clearly lost a step, he took 18.8 FGA. Kobe, despite being the 2nd option, chucked away 20x times a game and up to 22 the year he held the team back with his ball hoggery and selfishness. Theres a reason Phil wanted him gone, theres a reason why the championship DVD makes mention of the importance of that stretch when the Lakers just dominated when Kobe was hurt.


    False, go re-read the post you quoted. I made note of this fact and offered an opening to various timelines, one of which I directly stated was having them at the same ages. It was never ignored, you just lack reading comprehension.



    Except its not a fact and your not going to convince anyone of such a lol worthy correlation much less causation. I've seen the numbers, you are greatly exaggerating this claim and disregarding methods for accounting for this. Im also not sure it holds true for everyone anyways, we've seen the numbers on Kobe and Wade vs various teams for awhile now, I dont see what the **** you're talking about. Try listing facts instead of pure unsubstantiated conjecture (because of your job, I guess...), its not hard to look this stuff up and try to find objective evidence supporting your claims. Its really just ignorance to statistics IMO.


    I never said that, I said Wade was more productive (by ALOT) when he was the solo star (yes, during his peak) but I can change it to prime run if you want.


    I disagree entirely based on how much more productive Wade was in every concievable situation and how much more he got out of Shaq with his playmaking and the fact that Wade was far more unselfish a player (better chemistry). But yeah, that Kobe with Shaq is prolly right there too but I feel like Wade came into the league a better leader, he didn't need those years of hardship and painful breakups with Shaq to play with that team mentality. Kobe wins more titles if we assume they could handle each other better and force it out because Wade lacked the longevity.
    This entire post is ridiculous. Wade was not more productive than kobe at any stage, really. What you've shown over and over again is that you have no idea how to interpret analytics (and have no business being allowed near any type of data) but that won't stop you from forming these absurd positions. I'll give you one thing, you are easily the biggest blowhard in here. Your takes are absurd and as others have pointed out you are basically a troll. Wade couldn't win a 3-peat with shaq and couldn't win a 3-peat with prime LBJ and prime Bosh playing in a horrible conference, but somehow he would be able to do it in the far tougher West with prime Shaq (who most of have ahead of LBJ) and no 3rd star? These positions are outright laughable. But you have to keep your nonsense narrative about kobe. Remember when you used to make these same absurd posts about kobe and then fell silent after kobe won a title without Shaq? I guess you still haven't gotten over how monumentally wrong you were lol

  7. #2317
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    We did that and itís clearly lebron. Remove team success, the situation they are in, coach rings, etc. breakdown each player Lebron hands down.
    Umm, no not really and not that close either. Kobe is the better on ball defender and the better team defender. kobe is the much better shooter, has far better footwork off the dribble, better footwork in the post, better footwork off the ball, better moves in the post, better moves off the dribble, better moves off the ball. Kobe was a far greater array of shots that he can hit. kobe has a better off hand. Kobe is a better catch and shoot guy, kobe is a better free throw shooter, kobe is better off the ball. Kobe is the better free-throw shooter. Kobe is vastly, vastly superior out of the post (to the point in which it's almost embarrassing to compare them. LBJ is better off the dribble, but kobe was excellent off the dribble. LBJ is a better finisher, but kobe was an excellent finisher. LBJ is the better passer, but kobe was a very good passer. LBJ has better course vision, but kobe had very good court vision. LBJ is the better rebounder, but kobe was an excellent rebounding guard. The only thing that LBJ is better at than kobe in which kobe was not good at is shot selection. In contrast, almost everything that kobe is better than LBJ at LBJ is mediocre at best, whereas kobe was GREAT at those things. The difference is very large, but it's in Kobe's favor. LBJ is not a particularly skilled balled player. He has enough skills that with his size and athleticism he can be great, but there are a lot of players who are far better at more basketball skills than LBJ...it's not just kobe who wins out this comparison. There is a long list of guys that can be listed here where everything I just said about kobe in comparison to LBJ is true for them to when they are compared to LBJ.

  8. #2318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Just as an aside, I always felt Penny and Nash got the most out of their version of Shaq, but they themselves lacked the individual game/production that Kobe and Wade had to win big. Wade had the best combination of making his teammates better AND producing at a high level with insane efficiency. Im starting to think we underrated him and that he may have been better than Bron some years, or at least right there with him.
    wade prime was shorter than Kobe but when he was prime he was right there with him. Wade got banged up early. Dirick Rose was going to be a top notch pg in this era to but injuries done him in. Tmac grant Hill are two others that may have surpass Kobe. Shaq taking the beating help prolonged Kobe career. I think having Shaq and Phil in a system would of helped wade as well.
    Last edited by ldawg; 12-05-2019 at 08:29 PM.

  9. #2319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Umm, no not really and not that close either. Kobe is the better on ball defender and the better team defender. kobe is the much better shooter, has far better footwork off the dribble, better footwork in the post, better footwork off the ball, better moves in the post, better moves off the dribble, better moves off the ball. Kobe was a far greater array of shots that he can hit. kobe has a better off hand. Kobe is a better catch and shoot guy, kobe is a better free throw shooter, kobe is better off the ball. Kobe is the better free-throw shooter. Kobe is vastly, vastly superior out of the post (to the point in which it's almost embarrassing to compare them. LBJ is better off the dribble, but kobe was excellent off the dribble. LBJ is a better finisher, but kobe was an excellent finisher. LBJ is the better passer, but kobe was a very good passer. LBJ has better course vision, but kobe had very good court vision. LBJ is the better rebounder, but kobe was an excellent rebounding guard. The only thing that LBJ is better at than kobe in which kobe was not good at is shot selection. In contrast, almost everything that kobe is better than LBJ at LBJ is mediocre at best, whereas kobe was GREAT at those things. The difference is very large, but it's in Kobe's favor. LBJ is not a particularly skilled balled player. He has enough skills that with his size and athleticism he can be great, but there are a lot of players who are far better at more basketball skills than LBJ...it's not just kobe who wins out this comparison. There is a long list of guys that can be listed here where everything I just said about kobe in comparison to LBJ is true for them to when they are compared to LBJ.
    if you scout both lebron and Kobe no way you come out kobe unless you admire and value his work ethic. Or you simply want a shooting guard

  10. #2320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    if you scout both lebron and Kobe no way you come out kobe unless you admire his work ethic.
    Yeah, I guess the top teir defensive players in the league all just always say kobe was much harder to guard than LBJ because they have no idea what the heck they're talking about. Kobe can beat you in so many different ways. LBJ not so much.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-05-2019 at 08:43 PM.

  11. #2321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Just as an aside, I always felt Penny and Nash got the most out of their version of Shaq, but they themselves lacked the individual game/production that Kobe and Wade had to win big. Wade had the best combination of making his teammates better AND producing at a high level with insane efficiency. Im starting to think we underrated him and that he may have been better than Bron some years, or at least right there with him.
    Magic I think would have won if shaq did not leave. They got to the finals but were too young.

    And with the blanket shaq provided for Kobe and penny. Penny got injured after shaq was no longer there to take the beating.

  12. #2322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Yeah, I guess the top teir defensive players in the league all just always say kobe was much harder to guard than LBJ because they have no idea what the heck they're talking about. Kobe can beat you in so many different ways. LBJ not so much.
    Kobe is offensive minded. He stayed in attack mode. Lebron you can play him to pass. Itís been tally. In clutch moments Kobe was not I repeat was not efficient in doing so. The ones he did make was highlighted.

  13. #2323
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Kobe is offensive minded. He stayed in attack mode. Lebron you can play him to pass. Itís been tally. In clutch moments Kobe was not I repeat was not efficient in doing so. The ones he did make was highlighted.
    This is incorrect, but this also has nothing to do with the fact that Kobe could do far more as a basketball player than LBJ.

  14. #2324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    This is incorrect, but this also has nothing to do with the fact that Kobe could do far more as a basketball player than LBJ.
    Dude stop comparing old Kobe to young lebron. He can post he can fade he can pump fake he can shoot he can do all that but he has more mass than Kobe so kobe looked better doing it. They both score at the same rate with lebron doing it more efficient.

  15. #2325
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Dude stop comparing old Kobe to young lebron. He can post he can fade he can pump fake he can shoot he can do all that but he has more mass than Kobe so kobe looked better doing it. They both score at the same rate with lebron doing it more efficient.
    He can do them, but not very well. Kobe was GREAT at those things. LBJ can simply do them, but he's not a threat to beat you with his fadeaway. He can make it from time to time, but that's a far cry from it being a deadly weapon. The offense is happy to let LBJ take fadeaway and if he does, he's not going to beat anyone like that...at least not consistently. Again, big difference from being able to do something and being able to do something at arguably the highest level anyone has done it at. LBJ can do some of the things kobe can do, but just nowhere near the same level. In contrast, just about everything that LBJ was better than kobe at, it's very close because Kobe was excellent at those things as well.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 12-05-2019 at 09:04 PM.

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