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  1. #7936
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    wait nothing? i seen you lurking..... tell me how kobe had a better performance in a win for a title over lbeorn who just lost in a close out game?

  2. #7937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    There's suggestive data to support LBJ, but analytics are still relatively new and it often takes fields decades to iron out the kinks.
    The funny thing is that when you deal with data and analysis, these guys do not grasp the Lesson101 "do not do". Which is never try to fit reality into your dataset.

    It's a very young idea, the implementation is not concrete as every day there's something that is decided that is more relevant (even if it existed for years in some cases but was obscure or played down for irrelevance) and an older metrics that were held in godly regards are now considered silly, yet arguing with the same people about how silly they were in the first place would make you a statistical infidel just because you didn't follow their narrative.

    It's ridiculous watching the evolution of basketball stat nerds and not necessarily the metrics themselves. If they encountered their older selves and had a discussion about their view on stats they'd be killing each other and saying how bad their understanding of the game is


    The most classic of errors is when you assume that all stats are created equal, as if this is not a game where you accumulate a stat sheet by competing against others and not against a hole or in a static situation where the degree of difficulty is much less varied between all these results. You simply cannot ignore the context of it all and basketball as a sport does not allow these metrics to say that much about it. It can sure give some indications, but that's where its statute ends.

  3. #7938
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The funny thing is that when you deal with data and analysis, these guys do not grasp the Lesson101 "do not do". Which is never try to fit reality into your dataset.

    It's a very young idea, the implementation is not concrete as every day there's something that is decided that is more relevant (even if it existed for years in some cases but was obscure or played down for irrelevance) and an older metrics that were held in godly regards are now considered silly, yet arguing with the same people about how silly they were in the first place would make you a statistical infidel just because you didn't follow their narrative.

    It's ridiculous watching the evolution of basketball stat nerds and not necessarily the metrics themselves. If they encountered their older selves and had a discussion about their view on stats they'd be killing each other and saying how bad their understanding of the game is


    The most classic of errors is when you assume that all stats are created equal, as if this is not a game where you accumulate a stat sheet by competing against others and not against a hole or in a static situation where the degree of difficulty is much less varied between all these results. You simply cannot ignore the context of it all and basketball as a sport does not allow these metrics to say that much about it. It can sure give some indications, but that's where its statute ends.
    another stupid post... Its not that all stats are equal its just that literally 99.9 percent of the stats favor one player heavily which then tells the story.

  4. #7939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I'm not making stuff up, those are real things. I also agree that in the open floor LBJ is unstoppable. These real things. In the open floor, LBJ might be greatest ever. That is something that should also be factored in just like the stuff I've been talking about. There's a lot of nuances to the game.
    we just saw the whole team decide they wanted the ball out Lebron hands and also deny him a path to the basket. It left Danny Green with a wide open practice shot in which be missed. is that the worp in which you speak?

  5. #7940
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    lebron played a better game tonight in the playoffs then Kobe ever did and he lost.... the title was his and he did everything and LOST. He will never be able to play as bad as kobe did in that game 7 against boston and still get a win and a title... it will never happen and that is why rings are stupid
    Yes last night game was a perfect example why counting rings is worst than ignoring stats to rate a player. Morris could have been the hero like Artest after missed 3 but instead he threw the ball out of bounds. Had they won now all of a sudden Lebron is closer to Kobe. lol. So much moving parts in ring count. Bad choices by the coach, Luck, Davis Injury so much things happening. The man played an almost perfect game.

    The big difference i saw in this game why they lost.. Lakers continue to miss wide open shots while Miami is making theirs.
    Last edited by ldawg; 10-10-2020 at 08:52 AM.

  6. #7941
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The funny thing is that when you deal with data and analysis, these guys do not grasp the Lesson101 "do not do". Which is never try to fit reality into your dataset.

    It's a very young idea, the implementation is not concrete as every day there's something that is decided that is more relevant (even if it existed for years in some cases but was obscure or played down for irrelevance) and an older metrics that were held in godly regards are now considered silly, yet arguing with the same people about how silly they were in the first place would make you a statistical infidel just because you didn't follow their narrative.

    It's ridiculous watching the evolution of basketball stat nerds and not necessarily the metrics themselves. If they encountered their older selves and had a discussion about their view on stats they'd be killing each other and saying how bad their understanding of the game is


    The most classic of errors is when you assume that all stats are created equal, as if this is not a game where you accumulate a stat sheet by competing against others and not against a hole or in a static situation where the degree of difficulty is much less varied between all these results. You simply cannot ignore the context of it all and basketball as a sport does not allow these metrics to say that much about it. It can sure give some indications, but that's where its statute ends.
    Stats show a pattern its not a sample of a few games. Meaning it will all average out. MJ, Lebron have seasons shooting over 50% all these players have won rings. These players also elevate there game in the postseason with pace setting performances. 1 of these players had a star bigger and more popular than him being the face of the league. So if you want to cross reference stats in context you can but understand it dont just stop at one point. You cannot argue over a career the level of difficulty was more for one of these players. It have a legit reason why 1 of these players never shot over 50% and lead in FG attempts over the league. Its not the level of difficulty it just dont add up.

  7. #7942
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    not at all.. tell me how i am wrong at what i said? Who had the better game?
    It's highly debatable that kobe has never had a game in the finals good as the one LBJ played last night, but on top of that, Kobe never played under these rules. As many others have noted, he would torch this league under these rules. This is why it's not really appropriate to compare performances like you're doing here...it's also very much a loser's mentality to tout a great performance in a loss that should've easily been a win. The fact of the matter is, the heat have no business taking this series past 4, let alone to a 6th game, especially given how short handed they are. It was a great performance by LBJ, but that is irrelevant when one loses. Go to the laker forum and see how many laker fans are content with LBJ's performance...it was nice and all, but who cares? We (the lakers and our fans; not you because you are an admitted LBJ Stans) lost, that is all that matters.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-10-2020 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #7943
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    wait nothing? i seen you lurking..... tell me how kobe had a better performance in a win for a title over lbeorn who just lost in a close out game?
    I can tell you of several, just so long as you account for the differences in the rules between now and when Kobe played. Can't compare performances across different eras that had different rules.

  9. #7944
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    we just saw the whole team decide they wanted the ball out Lebron hands and also deny him a path to the basket. It left Danny Green with a wide open practice shot in which be missed. is that the worp in which you speak?
    Yep, that's it and as I've noted repeatedly, LBJ also warps the floor so he did what he has always done. It was clear that he did not intend to take the shot though as he attacked the basket. It resulted in a good shot for Green, but he was really off the entire game. I would've preferred for LBJ to force the defense to make a play on him or force the refs to make a call like Butler did on the other end. With the game on the line, I prefer my best player taking a semi tough shot than a mediocre player who has been cold all game to take an open shot. As a defense, you live with Green having that shot (i.e., Miami got what they wanted).

  10. #7945
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYKalltheway View Post
    The funny thing is that when you deal with data and analysis, these guys do not grasp the Lesson101 "do not do". Which is never try to fit reality into your dataset.

    It's a very young idea, the implementation is not concrete as every day there's something that is decided that is more relevant (even if it existed for years in some cases but was obscure or played down for irrelevance) and an older metrics that were held in godly regards are now considered silly, yet arguing with the same people about how silly they were in the first place would make you a statistical infidel just because you didn't follow their narrative.

    It's ridiculous watching the evolution of basketball stat nerds and not necessarily the metrics themselves. If they encountered their older selves and had a discussion about their view on stats they'd be killing each other and saying how bad their understanding of the game is


    The most classic of errors is when you assume that all stats are created equal, as if this is not a game where you accumulate a stat sheet by competing against others and not against a hole or in a static situation where the degree of difficulty is much less varied between all these results. You simply cannot ignore the context of it all and basketball as a sport does not allow these metrics to say that much about it. It can sure give some indications, but that's where its statute ends.
    Yep, I tend to agree here. Another critical factor is that even if a player has better stats, it's not in any way clear how that translates to that player being better. For instance, let's assume that something like VORP is a real indicator of who is better (which it's not), but let's assume that it is. How much better is LBJ than say CP3 based on their different VORPS? For his career, LBJ has an average 32 pt higher VORP than CP3, does that mean that LBJ is 32 pts better than CP3? What does that actually translate to in terms of how much better LBJ is?

    What seems to be missed here is that these stats are in no way interpretable in terms of assessing players. It's completely unclear how they scale up to providing meaningful distinctions between players, wherein we can know how much of a difference exists. Most of these guys are surprised to find out that when we factor in free shooting, kobe misses about a half shot more than LBJ per game (not even a full shot), something that I'm not sure too many people would've realized because when you look at the fg%, you see a notable advantage for LBJ but what that translates to is minuscule difference. The problem is even worst with the advanced metrics because it's not as easy to tease those apart to recognize what it actually translates to in an actual game given that they have a lot more moving parts.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-10-2020 at 10:57 AM.

  11. #7946
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    another stupid post... Its not that all stats are equal its just that literally 99.9 percent of the stats favor one player heavily which then tells the story.
    They favor LBJ heavily?? Okay, so why don't you go ahead and give me a number that we can quantify that tells us how much better LBJ is. And no, I don't mean using verbal labels like "a lot better" or "moderately better", I mean actually give us a number that will be informative in terms of how much better LBJ is that we can interpret in a meaningful manner.

  12. #7947
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldawg View Post
    Stats show a pattern its not a sample of a few games. Meaning it will all average out. MJ, Lebron have seasons shooting over 50% all these players have won rings. These players also elevate there game in the postseason with pace setting performances. 1 of these players had a star bigger and more popular than him being the face of the league. So if you want to cross reference stats in context you can but understand it dont just stop at one point. You cannot argue over a career the level of difficulty was more for one of these players. It have a legit reason why 1 of these players never shot over 50% and lead in FG attempts over the league. Its not the level of difficulty it just dont add up.
    Maybe you should actually look at the league adjusted shooting percentage. When you look at that, you see that although LBJ has a better fg%, there are many comparable seasons and some where kobe is actually higher (i.e., there are seasons, when compared to the rest of the league, where Kobe shot a higher fg% than LBJ and that's ignoring the differences in free throws). This is a pretty straightforward metric, which shows that the gap in their shooting efficiencies (which was never all that large to begin with, about a half shot extra miss per game) is even smaller than that. in other words, this narrative some of you like to push is actually false and the difference isn't nearly as large. Kobe was above average in efficiency through most of his career and when free throws are factored in, the difference is almost negligible (especially when looking at their fg% based on the league average, which is the only way to actually compare stats of any kind if we're going to be doing that).

    Also, go ahead and look at their percentages and the break down of shots by distance. Kobe wins from 3-10 ft, from 10-16 ft, and from 16ft-3p line. LBJ has a slight edge on 3s, and a big edge at shots at the rim. Contrary to what and a few others on here have been saying, LBJ has taken a much larger amount of shots at the rim than Kobe. So from this, we can directly conclude that the reason LBJ has a higher fg% is because he's taken way more shots at the rim (i.e., LBJ has a higher fg% than kobe for the same reason shaq does, because they're both simply taking a lot more layups). Kobe basically wins out every shooting metric with the exception of 3s, but this can more than be accounted for by Kobe's injury, the differences in rules, and the fact that defenses don't mind LBJ shooting the 3 ball, whereas kobe wasnt given those types of looks (when these are factored in LBJ wouldnt have the advantage here). With the exception of the last sentence, everything I just noted in this paragraph is not opinion and can be fully verified in the numbers (same for the previous paragraph about fg% relative to the rest of the league). This also ignores that those mid range shots were incredibly difficult shots and were highly, highly contested for kobe (probably a historic levels), whereas they are not defended anywhere near that level for LBJ and the defense usually only makes a modest attempt when he takes those shots. That is, IGNORING this factor, kobe still wins out (also ignoring that LBJ has played close to a decade now with very friendly defensive rules, that Kobe did not really get to benefit from.
    Last edited by Big Moves03; 10-10-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  13. #7948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    It's highly debatable that kobe has never had a game in the finals good as the one LBJ played last night, but on top of that, Kobe never played under these rules. As many others have noted, he would torch this league under these rules. This is why it's not really appropriate to compare performances like you're doing here...it's also very much a loser's mentality to tout a great performance in a loss that should've easily been a win. The fact of the matter is, the heat have no business taking this series past 4, let alone to a 6th game, especially given how short handed they are. It was a great performance by LBJ, but that is irrelevant when one loses. Go to the laker forum and see how many laker fans are content with LBJ's performance...it was nice and all, but who cares? We (the lakers and our fans; not you because you are an admitted LBJ Stans) lost, that is all that matters.
    Most Laker fans just want to win nothing else matters. Thats not the point in this conversation and why it wont be in a Laker forum. The topic is not which team win more. Lakers is a team with flaws and its the first season playing in a new system. Games have to be played you dont get to decide how many games it takes to win to knock down a peg. it just dont work like that. Miami is in the finals for a reason.

  14. #7949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    I can tell you of several, just so long as you account for the differences in the rules between now and when Kobe played. Can't compare performances across different eras that had different rules.
    Dude Kobe just retired you acting like he played in MJ era. Besides the same way you cant grab a player you cant man handle him same difference.

  15. #7950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Moves03 View Post
    Maybe you should actually look at the league adjusted shooting percentage. When you look at that, you see that although LBJ has a better fg%, there are many comparable seasons and some where kobe is actually higher (i.e., there are seasons, when compared to the rest of the league, where Kobe shot a higher fg% than LBJ and that's ignoring the differences in free throws). This is a pretty straightforward metric, which shows that the gap in their shooting efficiencies (which was never all that large to begin with, about a half shot extra miss per game) is even smaller than that. in other words, this narrative some of you like to push is actually false and the difference isn't nearly as large. Kobe was above average in efficiency through most of his career and when free throws are factored in, the difference is almost negligible (especially when looking at their fg% based on the league average, which is the only way to actually compare stats of any kind if we're going to be doing that).

    Also, go ahead and look at their percentages and the break down of shots by distance. Kobe wins from 3-10 ft, from 10-16 ft, and from 16ft-3p line. LBJ has a slight edge on 3s, and a big edge at shots at the rim. Contrary to what and a few others on here have been saying, LBJ has taken a much larger amount of shots at the rim than Kobe. So from this, we can directly conclude that the reason LBJ has a higher fg% is because he's taken way more shots at the rim (i.e., LBJ has a higher fg% than kobe for the same reason shaq does, because they're both simply taking a lot more layups). Kobe basically wins out every shooting metric with the exception of 3s, but this can more than be accounted for by Kobe's injury, the differences in rules, and the fact that defenses don't mind LBJ shooting the 3 ball, whereas kobe wasnt given those types of looks (when these are factored in LBJ wouldnt have the advantage here). With the exception of the last sentence, everything I just noted in this paragraph is not opinion and can be fully verified in the numbers (same for the previous paragraph about fg% relative to the rest of the league). This also ignores that those mid range shots were incredibly difficult shots and were highly, highly contested for kobe (probably a historic levels), whereas they are not defended anywhere near that level for LBJ and the defense usually only makes a modest attempt when he takes those shots. That is, IGNORING this factor, kobe still wins out (also ignoring that LBJ has played close to a decade now with very friendly defensive rules, that Kobe did not really get to benefit from.
    lol

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